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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > Forget the iPhone. Just give us a new widescreen video iPod.

Forget the iPhone. Just give us a new widescreen video iPod. (Page 2)
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Jul 4, 2007, 05:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by sanford
I discovered that current AT&T customers who *pay full price* for a new iPhone, even if they are no longer in a contract or only have a fraction of their contract to go, they get slammed with another two years of contract for *nothing*. Absolutely no reason.

Face it, you're being taken for a ride.
Man, are you arrogant. You have decided -- for all of us -- that the iPhone is a ripoff? You!? Excuse me, but I don't even know you.

The iPhone is not bread, water or air. No-one has to have one. If it's too expensive for you... If it doesn't do what you want it to do... If you don't like the terms... Then by all means, don't get one. Don't be such a d!ck to declare that those who've decided otherwise are somehow beneath you.

For what it's worth, I don't "get" Coach purses or Big Bertha golf clubs... Or Hummer H2s. Does that mean I'm gonna go on a golf forum or a car forum and tell everyone who has bought into these products what idiots they are? No. I realize that just because a product isn't for me doesn't make it "not for you, either."

Originally Posted by sanford
And don't give me, The iPhone is just not for you if you don't accept these terms. The iPhone is not for you, either, because the more people who accept this kind of closed-market monopolization -- capitalists my eye -- the more those of us sharp enough to stay away from such foolishness are faced with attempts to entrap us for goods and services we do actually need.
So your arrogance comes from the fact that you're smarter than all the rest of us. You're sharp enough to avoid this iPhone foolishness? Wow. Good for you. Maybe someday, if we all study real hard, we can join you up there on that esteem cloud you're riding so proud.

Originally Posted by sanford
It's a cost/benefit trade-off. I almost bought one Saturday. Went so far as to make sure my Apple Store had them in stock and had my credit pre-authorized through AT&T. But then I said, What am I doing? I'm going to pay $500 or $600 for this. Plus at least $80 a month for 24 months. I already have a video iPod. I already have an outstanding Canon camera. I don't want a mobile phone -- the one I have is for limited convenience and emergency contact only; 20 minutes use is a big month for me. The last thing I want to do is get e-mail while I'm out, let alone try to answer it. I don't want slow Internet access on the go. If I have need of Internet access via Wi-Fi while out or away -- this happens perhaps twice a year -- I'm going to take my Mac.
Again, "I, I, I..." Were you an only child? Because YOU don't need those things means that none of us should? I guess if it were up to you, none of us would have TiVo, because YOUR VCR works fine.

I certainly hope you'll enjoy a steamy mug of STFU soon.

And why do all the iPhone haters seem to find their way into iPhone discussions... Here, on Engadget, Gizmodo, TUAW... Everywhere it's the same.

I think NASCAR and pro wrestling are retarded, yet millions love those things. Am I gonna go waste my time on racing or 'rasslin' forums? Of course not. I have a life.
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Jul 4, 2007, 05:43 AM
 
^^^ Yeah, sanford's post is a bit harsh, even if AT&T is really milking it. However, I don't see the point of using expletives, DigitalEl.

And why do all the iPhone haters seem to find their way into iPhone discussions... Here, on Engadget, Gizmodo, TUAW... Everywhere it's the same.
I will note that this is actually an iPod thread. I don't want an iPhone either at this point (even if I could get one up here in Canada), because of the high price and because of the 2-year contract. Perhaps later once the feature set has been updated, esp. if unlocked iPhones become available.

What I want now is a cheaper widescreen iPod, hence the existence of this thread.

BTW, I still think $299 for a widescreen iPod is doable. FWIW, the tear-down guys think even the 8 GB iPhone costs less than that to build. So, $299 retail for an iPod with WiFi, widescreen, and hard drive, but without a GSM/EDGE transmitter, flash memory, camera, speaker, microphone, or Bluetooth is plausible.



FWIW, the Balda touchscreen in the iPhone is estimated to cost $27. That's $27 total for the screen (not $27 more). The current iPod costs $249. So, a touchscreen + WiFi iPod for $299 makes sense. And if not $299, then $349.

OTOH, perhaps they should do away with the hard drive altogether. That'd suit me fine. I'd be satisfied with a 16 GB flash-based video iPod (although NAND flash ain't cheap).

P.S. Apple refurbs are sometimes just awesome... I bought a 5G iPod refurb last year for CAD$209 (plus tax). I sold it this year for CAD$200. Now, we'll see how long I can hold out with just my iPod mini, without a video iPod.
( Last edited by Eug; Jul 4, 2007 at 06:30 AM. )
     
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Jul 4, 2007, 05:48 AM
 
Eug, I don't consider people who "don't really want an iPhone" haters and people who don't were not the intended target of my frustration, but when a guy comes on here and basically tells us that everyone who sprung for an iPhone is "being taken for a ride" and is -- I suppose -- dumb for buying one, it makes me a little cranky.

Is AT&T milking it? Sure. Is Apple? Sure. Are luxury carmakers milking it when their repairs cost more? Of course. Are nice eyeglass frames ridiculously overpriced compared to the ones at America's Best? Well, yeah.

I don't mind someone saying "that's not for me."

I do have a problem with someone declaring "that's not for you."
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Jul 4, 2007, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by DigitalEl View Post
Eug, I don't consider people who "don't really want an iPhone" haters and people who don't were not the intended target of my frustration, but when a guy comes on here and basically tells us that everyone who sprung for an iPhone is "being taken for a ride" and is -- I suppose -- dumb for buying one, it makes me a little cranky.

Is AT&T milking it? Sure. Is Apple? Sure. Are luxury carmakers milking it when their repairs cost more? Of course. Are nice eyeglass frames ridiculously overpriced compared to the ones at America's Best? Well, yeah.

I don't mind someone saying "that's not for me."

I do have a problem with someone declaring "that's not for you."
DigitalEl,

I'll just accept your ad hominem polemics are the best you can do. I will however note that icruise and I in several threads on this subject have managed to frustrate the hell out of each other in various ways but have yet to stoop to calling each other "dicks". I'd suggest the gentleman doth protest too much.

Now to the point, I don't hate the iPhone. I rather like the iPhone. If mobile phones and Internet access were significant to my work or lifestyle, it would be my first choice by far. What I don't like is the arrangement with AT&T. That you can't use the non-phone features -- the majority of the features -- on the iPhone without signing up for AT&T service, even though you pay full retail for the device. That non-contract Go Phone plans are available for the iPhone, but I'd have to fake bad credit -- essentially, commit a federal felony -- to have offered these plans; I can't as, with every other AT&T offering, just opt out of the credit check and purchase a Go Phone plan without a contract. That contracts without consideration are not valid, and despite whatever machinations AT&T can go through to give these contracts the appearance of validity, they hold no consideration for the buyer, the second party, and are therefore not valid.

What you interpret as arrogance is concern for our economic system. Traditional American capitalism survives on competition and free markets. That you can select a product from one company and a service for it from another and change that as you wish, unless one or the other company provides consideration that earns them a contractual obligation. Does your Tivo work only with ABC? And does ABC require you pay a monthly fee for a contract period of two years in order to record their programming? How would you feel if it did? But in signing contracts without consideration, that's where we're headed, because these contracts are advantageous to the vendor, and the corporation by design has no soul and no ethics and exists only to make money for their shareholders. That's why I say it's not for you, either. Not that it's not for you to make a decision about what you will or will not put up with in order to own an iPhone. On an individual scale that's a personal decision. But enough people give away their rights as a consumer because their desire to own the latest marketing dynamo is so strong, eventually we all have to sign multi-year contracts just to receive necessary services meted out on a monthly basis -- i.e., services that do not merit contractual obligations. (For example, as was the case and may still be with some satellite TV providers, you pay for installation, you pay every month to lease all the equipment, you pay a monthly fee for programming, yet still they expect you to sign a 12-month contract for initial service. Why? You've already paid full price for everything or you're leasing it and they can have it back. What do they need 12 months of revenue to make up? Nothing, that's what.)

So today you have no problem with the contract arrangement required to own an iPhone. Will you have no problem when it's your power company? Your landline telephone provider? Your Internet service? Your auto insurance provider? Your physician? Your grocery market? Will it bother you then? Will it bother you that you have to select and commit to a provider of goods or services for years without the option to switch to the competition unless you paying cancellations fees that are essentially bribes to let you out of your contract? We're not talking about paying through the nose for luxury automobiles. We're talking about communications services that are close to becoming as much a necessity, or perceived necessity, in our society as electricity was in 1952.

For the record, I never complained about the price of the iPhone, or the device itself. For what it is, the quality of design and manufacture, I think it's sold at a reasonable retail price. And it seems to technically excel at what it is intended to do.

In the 1970s the federal government deemed AT&T a monopoly and spent a lot of taxpayers' money to break them up and open the communications industry to competition. For almost thirty years consumers have benefitted from that competition. In general, we get much more for much less from communications providers, all without contracts; and should we become dissatisfied, the vendors are aware of the threat we can just turn to the next competing provider. Over this three decades, AT&T has been slowly, intentionally rebuilding their communications monopoly by buying up all the parts that were made independent, and also new companies to cover new market segments, and they now are poised to resume their position of monopoly domination over communications. The federal government hasn't bothered to really watch them and the American people either don't care or are too young to remember Ma Bell and what that moniker really meant. And they've done all this not by winning over customers with excellent service, but with their long-maintained war chest and by treachery in their business dealings.

These are watershed years. We Americans have the opportunity to change the perilous course of a more restrictive economic system and revitalize the promise of competition and free markets. Or not. If realizing this and arguing that we should take up this fight for change makes me an "arrogant dick", then so be it.
     
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Jul 4, 2007, 12:20 PM
 
widescreen ipod will be released in the fall, with all distribution channels fully loaded for the holiday rush.
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Jul 4, 2007, 12:24 PM
 
Give it a rest, Sanford. Your concern for the future of Western civilization is touching, but that sort of slippery slope reasoning doesn't hold much water.
     
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Jul 4, 2007, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by shabbasuraj View Post
widescreen ipod will be released in the fall, with all distribution channels fully loaded for the holiday rush.
Before or after Leopard? Have to space out my expenses...
     
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Jul 4, 2007, 08:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by sanford View Post
It's a moot point. Consider it rested. Changed my mind, no little amount due to all the convincing I received here. Went and looked at one again, gave it a more thorough check out. Bought one on the spot (8 GB, one of last couple they had), then came home and signed up for the two-year AT&T contract on the mid-priced plan since my credit qualification for a contract doesn't make me eligible for Go Phone plans. So, yes, I now have an iPhone. And I love it.
It's hard to believe that someone who argued so passionately (or at least voluminously) against AT&T and the iPhone could change their mind so easily.

EDIT: For some reason this is showing up before Sanford's post.
     
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Jul 4, 2007, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
Give it a rest, Sanford. Your concern for the future of Western civilization is touching, but that sort of slippery slope reasoning doesn't hold much water.
It's a moot point. Consider it rested. Changed my mind, no little amount due to all the convincing I received here. Went and looked at one again, gave it a more thorough check out. Bought one on the spot (8 GB, one of last couple they had), then came home and signed up for the two-year AT&T contract on the mid-priced plan since my credit qualification for a contract doesn't make me eligible for Go Phone plans. So, yes, I now have an iPhone. And I love it.
     
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Jul 4, 2007, 10:04 PM
 
Priceless™



So how does it feel to be taken for a ride, sanford?
     
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Jul 5, 2007, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Visnaut View Post
Before or after Leopard? Have to space out my expenses...
after
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Jul 9, 2007, 12:00 PM
 
Piper Jaffray: Mac OS X-based iPods by January

Changes to the iPod may soon bring it in line with the iPhone, while avoiding cannibalized sales, according to a new outlook report. Analysts at the research firm Piper Jaffray suggest that as expected, the next generation of iPods will be based on the iPhone's touchscreen interface; while there will likely be no Internet or phone services, future iPods are expected to be based on Mac OS X, though whether or not users will be able to install software on them has not been raised as a question. Analysts do however propose that they will be announced in the fall or winter, at the latest by January's MacWorld event.

It sounds like they're just guessing though.
     
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Jul 9, 2007, 12:08 PM
 
When it comes to Apple, at least, anything said by an "analyst" is a guess.
     
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Jul 11, 2007, 04:07 PM
 
Electronista: Touchscreen iPod sourced, dated for August?

Apple has chosen Wintek to supply touchscreen panels for an upcoming video-capable iPod, say sources in the Taiwan supply chain.

Shipments of the screens has been scheduled for the second half of the year but has likely already begun, according to the claim. Apple is said to be asking for the panels in time for an August release, introducing a touch-driven iPod less than two months after the iPhone's late June appearance.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
It's hard to believe that someone who argued so passionately (or at least voluminously) against AT&T and the iPhone could change their mind so easily.

EDIT: For some reason this is showing up before Sanford's post.
Yes, in fact it's not really believable. Long story to explain, but I was channeling Jack White, since a considered, dissenting perspective earned me sarcasm such as my "concern for Western Civilization is touching", and, from another respondent to this thread, the direct offense of calling me an "arrogant dick". So it seemed expedient to let everyone thrive on the illusion they had somehow convinced me I was wrong, and they in their iPhone revelry were oh so right.

But then, late, but not too much so, the US federal government swoops in to back me up:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...B1037F26545%7D

Seems that bunch of arrogant dicks on the House Subcommittee might be concerned for the future of Western civilization, too. Touching.

Seriously, the cell phone industry in the United States has muddled along with their egregiously restrictive service plans, contracts and equipment programs, but now the iPhone/AT&T deal has managed to get the attention of federal authorities. Marketing hype might be good for something after all. (My wife's phone and my emergency phone are both on T-Mobile plans -- their representatives have told us straight out that we are welcome to use any phone we can get our hands on that will work on their network, which is almost any GSM phone that is not itself locked to another network; they don't restrict or block out non-T-Mobile GSM phones on their network. Seems like they operate here more or less as they do in the EU. They sell service-specific phones on subsidy, but you're not at all bound to those phones.)

It's important to note that the congressman's "paper weight" upon contract cancellation statement refers to using the iPhone as a phone, not the other features. It remains to be seen whether or not the other features will re-lock after a period of time without the iPhone contacting the AT&T network with a valid, active SIM card installed. It wouldn't make sense to lock the features the moment the phone goes off network or the SIM card is pulled, as there are situations in which this might naturally need to occur. But after a couple weeks? A month? Who knows. And I'm sure, since there is now at least one technical solution to unlocking the iPhone and a couple of contract manipulation methods to do so, the ability to use the iPhones other features without an ongoing, active AT&T contract or service plan will be "fixed" in an upcoming firmware update.

Man, it's unfortunate that we've reached the point that Apple of all companies is getting federal heat normally reserved for various competitors. Indeed, it is sad. Of course, no, I did not buy an iPhone. I wouldn't own one. Further, I haven't decided if I will continue to buy Apple products at all. Yet I can't imagine *not* using a Mac, since it's all I've ever used. Fortunately I wouldn't replace my Mac laptop for almost another couple years under any cirumstances. OS X and/or iLife upgrade in October? I don't know. My iPod will be a couple years old in October, and certainly doesn't need replacement, but I was planning on replacing it with the new generational model, which I expect by this autumn or January at the latest. Now I just don't know. I do know that I'd finally given in to the convenience and economy, over CDs and often DVDs, of buying most of my music and a limited amount of video from the iTunes Store. But as a direct result of this ridiculous iPhone arrangement -- this is just a flat-out bad deal for the customer -- I'm back to CDs and DVDs until I further consider whether or not I wish to continue to support this company.

Really is rather dismal. Apple had in me a permanent customer, as they seemed to balance corporate greed with customer value. Until now. I don't even know what my options other are other than an iPod, as the other devices seem quite bad in comparison. Perhaps a good portable CD player. And as for replacing my Mac... Wwhat? A typewriter? I certainly don't have interest in building m own PC and using a free operating system like Linux -- plus I use laptops. And the other available commercial option, besides being a burden to use, doesn't fair any better in the ethics category.

Hey, but those iPhones sure are *snazzy*. Too bad both designer and carrier for the product decided they had the right to use people's desire for the product to bilk them beyond all reason. Hopefully, doubtfully, the federal government will immediately slam a hammer down on them.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 08:36 AM
 
Some lawmakers, both Democrats and Republicans, also expressed reluctance to tamper with what most acknowledged was a healthy and fast-growing industry.
Translation: People aren't going to not buy cellphones, so why should we eliminate profit making tactics?
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 08:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Translation: People aren't going to not buy cellphones, so why should we eliminate profit making tactics?
You're actually using an argument in favor that some lawmakers of both parties are continuing to support the concept of corporate-run totalitarian Communism -- that's its closest analog, folks, cause it ain't free market capitalism -- to defend the iPhone? You know, the same argument that some lawmakers of both parties use to support a healthcare system for which we should feel great national shame. (Maximum profit is the end goal of American corporations, not of free market capitalism. Don't confuse the two.) You're using that argument in *favor* of the iPhone deal? Okay.

I'm not getting into another interminable debate with iPhone-huggers in which I'm called an "arrogant dick" by a respondent all while a forum *moderator* actively participates in the same discussion, on the side of the argument opposite mine, without sanctioning that respondent clearly in violation of forum policy. (In fact, it makes a joke out of having moderators here in the first place, and if he can't readily see that enforcing universal forum policy only in cases in which he is aligned with the offended party -- or at least is not making an oppositional argument to that party -- flies in the face of any concept of equitable moderation, I can't help him. But "moderator" is not a role he should be taking on; yet I suppose you get what you pay for.)

There are several stories in valid news outlets that don't mention those members of the House Subcommittee who were against "tampering" with the current system. I picked that one because it was best representative of the totality of the debate underway, so as not to bias my point. This point was: the iPhone/AT&T deal has already attracted the attention of the federal government for its outlandishly restrictive, free market oppositional and customer-unfriendly approach. And that is quite enough, or should be, to give anyone pause and cause them to consider the whole arrangement rather salute it with knee-jerk support born of, in no small part, gadget infatuation.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:05 AM
 
I'm not making an argument at all, slick.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:09 AM
 
Strangeness.

Anyways, I'm starting to rethink getting a widescreen video iPod. If it's just widescreen with CoverFlow, I may or not hold off. If it's widescreen with CoverFlow and WiFi/Safari, then I'm more likely to buy. However, it all comes down to price. I don't think I want to pay US$349 for one anymore, even if it includes WiFi. I think the WideFiPod sweet spot is $299.

I note that a PSP is $199 or less, and it also plays AAC music (non-DRM'd). It can also play H.264 video, and will be getting a video out port this fall. And of course, WiFi is included. The main problem with it is the size, and currently the video playback specs. However, maybe they'll improve the H.264 playback with the fall update, to support something like the 640x480 H.264 Baseline-LC that the iPod can already support, or else 480x272 Baseline.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I don't think I want to pay US$349 for one anymore, even if it includes WiFi. I think the WideFiPod sweet spot is $299.
So does that mean you'd never buy a current viPod ever? Seems unrealistic to want such an advancement over the old viPod for a discount.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
I'm not making an argument at all, slick.
You chose for quotation that one sentence from the entire piece but once it's challenged and you can't defend it you deny that it's an argument?

And don't call me "slick", dolt.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by sanford View Post
You chose for quotation that one sentence from the entire piece but once it's challenged and you can't defend it you deny that it's an argument?
How is my "translating" it making an argument? It's commentary, pure and simple.

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
And don't call me "slick", dolt.
Don't take it out on me that you've been getting unnecessary flak in this thread. I'm not surprised, though, if you can't differentiate between an argument and commentary.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
So does that mean you'd never buy a current viPod ever? Seems unrealistic to want such an advancement over the old viPod for a discount.
Eh? The current viPod is US$249. I bought a refurb 5G for CAD$209, which is less than US$199. I'm asking for a new viPod to be $50 more expensive at US$299, with WiFi and widescreen. I just don't want it to be $100 (or 40%) more expensive than the existing model.
( Last edited by Eug; Jul 12, 2007 at 09:25 AM. )
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Eh? The current viPod is US$249. I bought a refurb 5G for CAD$209, which is less than US$199.I'm asking for a new viPod to be $50 more expensive, with WiFi and widescreen.
Okay, my mistake, neither one of us specified what end model we were talking about. That's realistic.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Strangeness.

Anyways, I'm starting to rethink getting a widescreen video iPod. If it's just widescreen with CoverFlow, I may or not hold off. If it's widescreen with CoverFlow and WiFi/Safari, then I'm more likely to buy. However, it all comes down to price. I don't think I want to pay US$349 for one anymore, even if it includes WiFi. I think the WideFiPod sweet spot is $299.

I note that a PSP is $199 or less, and it also plays AAC music (non-DRM'd). It can also play H.264 video, and will be getting a video out port this fall. And of course, WiFi is included. The main problem with it is the size, and currently the video playback specs. However, maybe they'll improve the H.264 playback with the fall update, to support something like the 640x480 H.264 Baseline-LC that the iPod can already support, or else 480x272 Baseline.
We have a PSP in the household. You'd be pleased with the video as it is now. The fall update to the PSP hardware -- including video out -- is a rumor. It might not even be on the table for this autumn -- although I don't doubt they plan to update it within a year -- and even if it is, Sony may push it to spring to keep focus on the "re-launch" of the PS3 -- in other words, not to split the consumer dollar when they want get more PS3s sold.

Finally, they're likely to introduce the new model, with perhaps at least some onboard storage and other features beyond video out, at US$249, as opposed old model, which I'm sure they'll keep at US$169 or cut further. You'll then have to decide whether the other new features are worth the premium. What would probably be ideal for you is a video-out port peripheral of some sort so you could get TV video out with the current model. Better format support, although as I mentioned what's there looks very good, indeed could and probably will be done in firmware. I think the latest PS3 update enhanced the format support to include the same formats Apple and Microsoft's games console support. Sorry I don't specifically know as I tend to watch movies on disc, DVD or occasionally BD, and I have an Apple TV, so the video file formats of the PS3 are kind of unnecessary for me.

Also, ultimately, it doesn't have near the quality of integration as Apple's products, although the interface is not bad. I wouldn't discourage you from buying one, as you could play fairly robust games, too, if you wish. But there will be trade-offs versus an iPod that you'll have to weigh for yourself.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Okay, my mistake, neither one of us specified what end model we were talking about. That's realistic.
Yeah... I prefer the smaller sized drive, because it means a slimmer and lighter viPod. The 80 GB model is physically thicker.

I'd be satisfied with a 30 GB, but ideally they'd bump the size up to 40 GB, since the smaller sized drive comes in a 40 GB capacity now.


Originally Posted by sanford View Post
The fall update to the PSP hardware -- including video out -- is a rumor. It might not even be on the table for this autumn -- although I don't doubt they plan to update it within a year -- and even if it is, Sony may push it to spring to keep focus on the "re-launch" of the PS3 -- in other words, not to split the consumer dollar when they want get more PS3s sold.

Finally, they're likely to introduce the new model, with perhaps at least some onboard storage and other features beyond video out, at US$249, as opposed old model, which I'm sure they'll keep at US$169 or cut further.
Sony already announced the new slimmer PSP with video output, for US$199.

     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Yeah... I prefer the smaller sized drive, because it means a slimmer and lighter viPod. The 80 GB model is physically thicker.
Trust me, I'm well aware of this. I have an 80, and I got into a car where my friend had a 30 hooked up and I asked when he got a Nano. I didn't realize they were that much thinner.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
How is my "translating" it making an argument? It's commentary, pure and simple.

Don't take it out on me that you've been getting unnecessary flak in this thread. I'm not surprised, though, if you can't differentiate between an argument and commentary.
Wait... Don't take it out on you that I'm taking flak from you in the form of your sarcastic moniker? Why, I think you'd be exactly the one to take it out on. Or maybe I should just pick someone at random who doesn't use flippant nicknames with the intent of offense. Of course you'll deny that your intent was to offend. That's why this whole debate is circular.

By the way, commentary would be annotating the content and gist of the entire article with your input. Singling out for quotation the one sentence in opposition to my position and then restating it is argument. You couldn't defend it, so you denied it was argument -- I think you know your intent when you quoted the sentence and I doubt you can honestly claim it was, Oh he forgot to put this in, as I didn't quote from the article besides clarifying a metaphor used by one congressman; I merely provided a link to the entire piece. So, yes, I know the difference between argument and commentary, and commentary is not what you conveniently claim you were writing when you can't defend what was, indeed, an argument.

I'll just step out of this mess. This is why the whole thing is circular and can't be debated: almost to a man, any poster who has presented an argument he can't defend either slings outright insults at me, denies his argument, or sarcastically dismisses my position with direct or implied offenses -- including the moderator. What's truly frightening is not the iPhone/AT&T deal but that no one -- no one here -- who owns or wants one can carry on a logical, reasonable debate about the merits of the service arrangement upon which it relies. Now that's scary. We own a Honda. We like our Honda. We picked it out in particular. But I can debate it's merits and handicaps. For one thing, it's overpriced for what it is in comparison with other substantially similar vehicles; we could have done better by at least 10 percent or more on that -- and I don't mean negotiated price, I mean MSRP. But the iPhone, quiet, we don't say a bad word about it -- although you'll note if you read back through this thread that I seriously question the service arrangement but have repeatedly praised its interface and design innovation.

This is pointless. A complete waste of time, yours and mine. There are serious problems with how Apple sells this thing, innovation of technology or not. Those who can see past the glitz and hype have seriously considered the restrictive downside and I'd suppose most have held off buying one or have determined not to buy one, want one or not. Those who can't get past the mere glory of owning an iPhone have one or soon will, and they can't see the service arrangement with enough clarity to question it's ethics or equity for the customer.

I do enough pointless things, so I'll skip this one.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 10:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by sanford View Post
Wait... Don't take it out on you that I'm taking flak from you in the form of your sarcastic moniker? Why, I think you'd be exactly the one to take it out on. Or maybe I should just pick someone at random who doesn't use flippant nicknames with the intent of offense. Of course you'll deny that your intent was to offend. That's why this whole debate is circular.
Actually, my intent was to be condescending.

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
By the way, commentary would be annotating the content and gist of the entire article with your input.
That'd be a type of commentary, that's not the only kind that can be done, though.


Originally Posted by sanford View Post
Singling out for quotation the one sentence in opposition to my position and then restating it is argument.
How is restatement an argument? It's restatement, then.

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
You couldn't defend it, so you denied it was argument -- I think you know your intent when you quoted the sentence and I doubt you can honestly claim it was, Oh he forgot to put this in, as I didn't quote from the article besides clarifying a metaphor used by one congressman;
Aha! Since when is clarifying making an argument?

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
So, yes, I know the difference between argument and commentary, and commentary is not what you conveniently claim you were writing when you can't defend what was, indeed, an argument.
Apparently not, slick. That or you just find it inconvenient that no one has posted a reaction to your article.

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
I'll just step out of this mess. This is why the whole thing is circular and can't be debated: almost to a man, any poster who has presented an argument he can't defend either slings outright insults at me, denies his argument, or sarcastically dismisses my position with direct or implied offenses -- including the moderator.
People are insluting you because you're being way too aggressive about this. You're looking for a fight. I poke fun at a few politicians and you're all over my post like it's the anti-christ.

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
But the iPhone, quiet, we don't say a bad word about it -- although you'll note if you read back through this thread that I seriously question the service arrangement but have repeatedly praised its interface and design innovation.
I didn't mention the iPhone. My post had nothing to do with the iPhone specifically. Just because I posted in this thread doesn't mean I have some kind of opinion on all your past posts in it.

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
This is pointless. A complete waste of time, yours and mine.
I'm sure we'll keep going, though.

Originally Posted by sanford View Post
I do enough pointless things, so I'll skip this one.
You're going skip this pointless exercise after typing a huge response? Right. And I'm sure this reply won't be responded to, either.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 10:24 AM
 
Lol stop ranting at each other man... this should be a nice civilized thread about a widescreen iPod.

My views on the WiPod would be that theyll release one before christmas, but after leopard. I don't really see the point in the iPhone, apart from it is one of those things that everyone wants - which is annoying because I want one aswell, yet knowing that it doesnt make sense to get one simply because of the coolness of it.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Andhee
My views on the WiPod would be that theyll release one before christmas, but after leopard.
Why after Leopard?

I would have guessed the best time for an update would be August/September for the back-to-school crowd. Here are the previous dates of new/revised models:

9/2006
10/2005
6/2005
7/2004
9/2003
4/2003
7/2002
3/2002

I will note there is at least one October release there, but all the rest are earlier in the calendar year. I will also note that it has already been over 43 weeks since the last iPod release (Sept. 12, 2006), and that last release wasn't even much of a release. The last real release was Oct. 12, 2005, or 91 weeks ago.

91 weeks is a very long time to go without a significant update.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
91 weeks is a very long time.
If there's one thing I've noticed, Apple seems to be moving towards a longer refresh cycle on all their products, OS included. Personally, I'm glad, as there was too much "should I wait for the next revision?" going on. Everyday that passes I'm happier I just grabbed the 80 gig iPod despite rumors of the widescreen.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 10:51 AM
 
So did you get an iPhone or not, Sanford? I would think that from your point of view the only thing worse than someone who doesn't see the problem in the current situation (i.e. most of us in the thread) is someone who sees it and buys one anyway (i.e. you).
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by sanford View Post
I'll just step out of this mess. This is why the whole thing is circular and can't be debated: almost to a man, any poster who has presented an argument he can't defend either slings outright insults at me, denies his argument, or sarcastically dismisses my position with direct or implied offenses -- including the moderator.
That's just priceless. You literally came onto the forum and said (in a variety of ways) "face it, you're a chump for having bought an iPhone" and now you're surprised that people are hostile to you? People here are not averse to serious, balanced discussion, but that's not how you start one.
     
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Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
If there's one thing I've noticed, Apple seems to be moving towards a longer refresh cycle on all their products, OS included.
True, we're getting close to 2 years now, and that's a fair bit for an iPod IMO.

I suspect there is a fair amount of pent up demand now for a WiPod, although I will admit that iPod sales remain OK, so Apple may have not had that much incentive to update the thing. That has changed though of course with the iPhone's release. The bar has now been set higher, and the iPod has to compete.

The good news for Apple is that it is competing against itself, and it continues to set the bar.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
True, we're getting close to 2 years now, and that's a fair bit for an iPod IMO.
It's a tough call, because I consider the increased video playback size a good upgrade.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 11:01 AM
 
I wish this discussion of the regulation by your government, or lack thereof, of cellular network contract terms and prices was in the polwar lounge, where it belongs, so that I could ignore it even more effectively than I am doing so now!

So yeah, wide-screen iPod. Hoorah. Can't wait.

I'm with Eug, though, I hope Apple adds some sort of WiFi capability to it.
     
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Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
It's a tough call, because I consider the increased video playback size a good upgrade.
Except it wasn't a hardware upgrade. It was purely a software update.

In fact, one reason I bought the 5G refurb was because it too got the 640x480 H.264 Baseline-LC support, and it too got the increased battery life. The only thing it didn't get was the brighter screen, which in the real world is often useless because it's battery juice so quickly.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 11:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Except it wasn't a hardware upgrade. It was purely a software update.
Good point, the old one was just as capable of the playback.
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 11:29 AM
 
I suppose the reasoning behind my theory of them waiting until the Christmas period would be that they are releasing Leopard for the school year (pretty much), and I think with an update of the iPod for Christmas, it would bring in sales more rapidly, and then they could shock everyone with another update of the iPod in Summer '08. I also think, after the next upgrade of the Mac Pro, iMac and Macbook, they will keep them like that for a fair while, because there isn't much left they can do which would make them anymore useful. If they continue updating products so rapidly, they'll just produce something so technologically advanced that is unnecassary and isn't useful, so they will end up producing something like the iPhone. Oh wait, they've already made the iPhone. I don't mean to insult anyone with an iPhone, but I think (please note the "I think" bit) they are fairly useless but full of gadgets, which makes everyone want one.

Apple will come to an eventual uselessness stage if they continued upgrading things every day, which I think is why the iPod hasn't been updated for a while, because it is still a great bit of technology which doesn't necassarilly need updating. *Breathes*
     
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Jul 12, 2007, 06:32 PM
 
AI: Future Apple iPods, iPhones may talk to each other

The September 1, 2006 filing with the United States Patent and Trademark Office describes methods "for delivery of data to a portable electronic device from another electronic device" over a local wireless network -- a technique eerily similar to one introduced by Microsoft with its Zune media player last November.

"In one embodiment, one mobile device discovers another mobile device within its vicinity. The mobile devices can then wirelessly transmit data from one mobile device to the other," Apple wrote in the filing. "Typically, the mobile devices are associated with persons (users). The mobile devices, or their users, can control, request or influence the particular data content being delivered."

Capable iPods and iPhones, the filing states, would include a processor that is configured to discover other electronic device via a wireless link, request data from the other electronic device over the wireless link, and receive from the other electronic device a wireless transmission of at least a portion of the data requested via the wireless link.
     
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Jul 19, 2007, 03:16 PM
 
I agree - I'd like the iPhone without the Phone feature. A widescreen Video iPod would be fantastic for me. I'd actually want to keep the Camera seeing as we can store pictures on an iPod already, why not take them as well? ...And possibly capture video as well.

I hope they release a Widescreen Video iPod w/ Camera.
     
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Originally Posted by Eug View Post
AI: Future Apple iPods, iPhones may talk to each other

The September 1, 2006 filing with the United States Patent and Trademark Office describes methods "for delivery of data to a portable electronic device from another electronic device" over a local wireless network -- a technique eerily similar to one introduced by Microsoft with its Zune media player last November.

"In one embodiment, one mobile device discovers another mobile device within its vicinity. The mobile devices can then wirelessly transmit data from one mobile device to the other," Apple wrote in the filing. "Typically, the mobile devices are associated with persons (users). The mobile devices, or their users, can control, request or influence the particular data content being delivered."

Capable iPods and iPhones, the filing states, would include a processor that is configured to discover other electronic device via a wireless link, request data from the other electronic device over the wireless link, and receive from the other electronic device a wireless transmission of at least a portion of the data requested via the wireless link.
I'm assuming what they do will be inherently different enough from what the Zune does that Microsoft won't be able to claim patent/copyright infringement.

Who would've thought...Apple getting design ideas from Microsoft...
     
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I hope you can turn that off over night.

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Originally Posted by vertigociel View Post
A widescreen iPod would not cannibalize iPhone sales.

The iPhone is a $500-$600 dollar convergence device aimed at that person who already has a smartphone/PDA and an iPod. It's designed to allow you to connect with friends, colleagues, etc, while providing some media entertainment as well.

A true widescreen iPod (i.e. iPhone - phone - internet + hard drive) would be a $300-$400 chiefly multimedia device, aimed at people who want a device for music and media explicitly. The iPhone is not a serious music device - it can't hold most people's music collection (especially if you want to store movies and e-mail on there as well), and requires another several hundred dollars for a service plan.

Most iPod owners (especially in the high school and college demographics, where iPod ownership is at saturation levels) don't have a real need for the phone and internet features. Sure, they'd all like an iPhone, but most of them won't splurge for it.

A true widescreen iPod is the logical next step, especially given the iPhone's rather meager storage capacity. Also, Steve tantalizingly mentioned that the OS X team is developing OS X for "some iPods we're working on" in the internal SteveNote on Thursday. I'll be surprised if there isn't one by holiday shopping season. Bring it on, I say!
+1 i doubt there are too many people who want an iphone that will settle for an ipod
     
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Jul 20, 2007, 10:28 AM
 
Actually, I do think an widescreen iPod will impact iPhone sales at least to a small extent. For example, I want an iPhone, but would be happy with an iPod. Cost is a major issue, not just with the unit, but also with the contracts. If the contracts with Rogers when the iPhone comes here aren't that good, I'll say goodbye to the iPhone idea (esp. since it's not 3G anyway).

However, the sales of the iPhone + widescreen iPod would be far greater than the iPhone alone.
     
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Jul 20, 2007, 11:22 AM
 
I can only speak for myself, but I think there's very little chance of me getting a theoretical widescreen iPod now. If the iPhone had never existed, I'm sure I would have bought a widescreen iPod without thinking twice.

I'm working under the assumption that a widescreen iPod wouldn't be better than the iPhone in any way other than storage capacity (and cost, and perhaps things like video out). If that is the case, I just can't justify getting one, since I already have a very capable music & video player in the iPhone, and I don't actually need 80-100GB of stuff with me at all times. Or put another way, I'm already carrying around the iPhone all the time. I don't want to take a step backward and have to start carrying multiple devices again.

On the other hand, if I didn't already have the iPhone and a widescreen iPod came out with everything but the iPhone's phone features, I would very seriously consider getting one and just using a cheaper cell phone. This is why I think it would be stupid of Apple to do this. Why make the iPod exactly the same as the iPhone, only cheaper, with more capacity, and without a monthly fee? It would really overshadow the iPhone, and that's the product that Apple needs to succeed right now. A touchscreen widescreen iPod would still sell very well, but wouldn't cut into the iPhone's territory.
     
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Originally Posted by icruise View Post
I'm working under the assumption that a widescreen iPod wouldn't be better than the iPhone in any way other than storage capacity (and cost, and perhaps things like video out).
I want more storage capacity, lower cost, and video out, which are several reasons the iPhone isn't ideal as an all-in-one device (even though it comes close).

This is why I think it would be stupid of Apple to do this. Why make the iPod exactly the same as the iPhone, only cheaper, with more capacity, and without a monthly fee? It would really overshadow the iPhone, and that's the product that Apple needs to succeed right now. A touchscreen widescreen iPod would still sell very well, but wouldn't cut into the iPhone's territory.
This is a similar argument that existed before the iPod mini came out. Why make a smaller, sleeker iPod for less money?

I personally think Apple may make widescreen touchscreen iPod with WiFi, partially so that it can act as an iTunes remote. And if it has WiFi, you may as well throw in Safari. In a way, that could act as an advertisement for the iPhone. However, even if there is no WiFi (or Bluetooth), that'd be fine, if the price reflected it.
     
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Jul 20, 2007, 03:13 PM
 
I hope WiFi stays an iPhone feature. I want a slim iPod with no additional 802.11 circuitry, no OS X, no web/email, and all the battery juice used just for playing my movies and audio. Right now the iPod is a media device and the iPhone is the communication device. I hope it stays that way. With time iPhone memory capacity will increase and iPod prices will come further down. And that's perfectly ok.

I'd like to see a widescreen Coverflow iPod with about 80 GB capacity in a 8 mm thick package. Battery life should be enough for 5h of video. Lose the scroll wheel so the iPod doesn't have to be substantially bigger than its screen. Use touchscreen controls similar to the iPhone.
     
 
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