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Eug · Feb 6, 2008, 03:23 PM

Ok, most of us believe the iPhone will 3G this year (2008). That's not much of a stretch, especially considering AT&T said as much.

Thus, it means it won't be only EV-DO, although I can't 100% rule out the possibility there eventually might be one version with that. It WILL be 3GSM based. However, my question is what kind of 3GSM?

Basic UMTS?
HSDPA? <-- My guess is at least this speed. My home network of Fido/Rogers is HSDPA (and EDGE of course).
HSUPA? <-- I note that AT&T is pushing a big HSUPA rollout this year.

If it's HSUPA, can it easily be cross-compatible with HSDPA and vice versa, or does it fall back to slower UMTS speeds?

Sorry, I'm a bit of a n00b on the 3GSM standards.

stugots · 04:01 PM

I'm not sure about what kind of 3G, but I did read (via macrumors.com) today that AT&T announced they would be expanding their 3G to 80 US cities in 2008.

Leads me to believe AT&T may be gearing up for the 2G iPhone.

See story:
AT&T Expanding Their 3G Network in 2008 - Mac Rumors

analogika · Feb 6, 2008, 03:58 PM

Yes, Eug mentioned that.

Simon · Feb 6, 2008, 04:22 PM

It will be UMTS.

Eug · Feb 6, 2008, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

It will be UMTS.

Do you mean the lowest end UMTS? If so that means 384 Kbps AFAIK, which seems a bit slow, considering the abilities of already shipping 3GSM phones (and the fact that EDGE is already half that speed).

If so then why? Ease of implementation?

Simon · 03:57 AM

Maybe not the lowest end UMTS, but I wouldn't at all be surprised.

I think it has to do mainly with market. Market penetration is one thing (UMTS is like the lowest common denominator in the 3G world) and market pressure the other. The iPhone is such an awesome product that Apple doesn't need to offer the latest and greatest (and also most battery draining) protocols. Heck, the iPhone came out with EDGE and couldn't be used as a modem and it still sold like crazy in the US. It reminds me of the whole Mac vs. PC thing. The generic PC can only succeed on the market with either lowest price or specs at the higher end (fast clocked CPUs, beefy GPUs, lots of RAM, huge disks, etc.). The Mac has so much other stuff going for it, a lot of people will gladly give up on some GPU power or disk capacity if they get the Mac experience. With the iPhone you get such a great device, people will take it without it having competitive data transfer rates or connection capabilities.

Now in Europe this seems to be somewhat different, but Apple has always been very US-centric for one (maybe bad iPhone sales in Europe will change that?) and they currently seem to be gambling on US success and coolness diffusing to Europe in a way I can't understand. The plans they negotiated with O2 for example are far poorer that what they got out of AT&T. Maybe this also reflects that Europe just has a far more competitive cell phone market.

Anyway, I think Apple will continue to be just under the edge in terms of specs because they know that the key selling points of the device are software and integration. While some Korean box shifter needs the fastest 3G in his phone for people to notice it at all, the iPhone has already been more than just noticed. Fo those of us waiting for fast 3G transfers that's not really a good thing. For those of us with Apple stock it sure is though.

f1000 · Feb 7, 2008, 03:46 AM

There's no question that Apple's 3G iPhone will use UMTS. EV-DO is a CDMA thing, and AT&T has been operating an HSDPA/UMTS GSM network for over a year now. I'm hoping that Apple won't go retro again and will implement HSDPA.

HSUPA isn't supposed to improve download speeds, but it is supposed to allow upload speeds to reach parity with HSDPA download speeds. Currently, AT&T HSDPA/UMTS uplink speeds are EDGE-like.

f1000 · Feb 7, 2008, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by stugots

I'm not sure about what kind of 3G, but I did read (via macrumors.com) today that AT&T announced they would be expanding their 3G to 80 US cities in 2008

Just to clarify, AT&T is expanding 3G to 80 additional cities. AT&T already provides 3G to over 250 markets. By the end of 2008, AT&T should be supplying 3G to over 350 markets.

When the iPhone was introduced, at least half of the country (mostly the urban half) was covered by AT&T 3G. For this reason, many of Jobs' excuses for not including 3G on the 1G iPhone didn't ring true to me. People who've never used a 3G phone, or even an EDGE phone, swallowed his excuses hook, line, and sinker, but I've not noticed any serious deficiencies in weight, network availability, or battery life on my LG HSDPA phone. My phone's main problem is its asstastic user interface.

Simon · Feb 7, 2008, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by f1000

...but I've not noticed any serious deficiencies in weight, network availability, or battery life on my LG HSDPA phone. My phone's main problem is its asstastic user interface.

Which incidentally is the likely reason for now fast 3G on the iPhone yet. What are these fast phones good for if their browsers sucks or their UIs take forever to display a list of emails? Jobs knows that. And that's why the iPhone gets away with EDGE (at least in the US).

f1000 · Feb 7, 2008, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

What are these fast phones good for if their browsers sucks or their UIs take forever to display a list of emails.

Ahem, tethering.

More seriously, UMTS call quality is better than with EDGE, at least in my experience.

Eug · Feb 7, 2008, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by f1000

There's no question that Apple's 3G iPhone will use UMTS. EV-DO is a CDMA thing, and AT&T has been operating an HSDPA/UMTS GSM network for over a year now. I'm hoping that Apple won't go retro again and will implement HSDPA.

HSUPA isn't supposed to improve download speeds, but it is supposed to allow upload speeds to reach parity with HSDPA download speeds. Currently, AT&T HSDPA/UMTS uplink speeds are EDGE-like.

OK. Yes I know it wil be some form of 3GSM, but my real question was what form. The above posts would suggest to me though that Apple may aim for HSDPA speeds then. (I wasn't really sure before if HSUPA was fully backwards compatible with HSDPA, but from the sounds of it is. Or at least their implementations of it is.) To aim for the lowest end UMTS seems like it would be a disappointment for the 3G crowd, and there isn't really a good reason to aim that low.

While it may not make sense to release a HSUPA phone, it does make sense to release an HSDPA phone especially when the technology is so common around the world (and is supported by both AT&T and Fido/Rogers in North America), and a lot of mid-priced phones already support it. It would be a big bonus if they could add tethering support though.

f1000 · Feb 7, 2008, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

While it may not make sense to release a HSUPA phone, it does make sense to release an HSDPA phone especially when the technology is so common around the world (and is supported by both AT&T and Fido/Rogers in North America), and a lot of mid-priced phones already support it. It would be a big bonus if they could add tethering support though.

I'd like to see HSUPA implemented because it would enable high quality video-telephony. Apple would have to add a swiveling camera or a separate front camera to the 3G iPhone to accomplish this. Oh, and people are tethering with their iPhones now using unsanctioned methods. EDGE is so 2005, though.

Eug · Feb 7, 2008, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by f1000

I'd like to see HSUPA implemented because it would enable high quality video-telephony. Apple would have to add a swiveling camera or a separate front camera to the 3G iPhone to accomplish this.

Yeah but how much of a cost differential would it be vs. if one aimed at HSDPA?

I suspect a HSDPA version would sell VERY well. I know I'd buy one.

Also I think they need it sooner rather than later... with nicer plans too. I note that Orange sales of the iPhone have been good but not great. Part of the reason is likely the contract, etc. but part of the reason is also likely the fact it isn't 3G despite the cost.

kobi · Feb 7, 2008, 12:17 PM

Sorry to disappoint but there's not going to be a 3G iPhone. Based on news the FCC just approvied ATT's purchase of the 12MHZ spectrum in the 700MHZ spectrum from Aloha Spectrum holdings. The 12MHZ is perfect size for broadband and WIFI and the chunk of spectrum that it bought covers 60% of the US. Instead of a 3G iPhone, Apple and ATT are going to implement nationwide WIFI not 3G.

Here's the link to the article on macdailynews:
MacDailyNews - FCC approves 12MHz spectrum purchase deal by AT&T; U.S. iPhone to get nationwide WiFi?

BRussell · Feb 7, 2008, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by kobi

Sorry to disappoint but there's not going to be a 3G iPhone. Based on news the FCC just approvied ATT's purchase of the 12MHZ spectrum in the 700MHZ spectrum from Aloha Spectrum holdings. The 12MHZ is perfect size for broadband and WIFI and the chunk of spectrum that it bought covers 60% of the US. Instead of a 3G iPhone, Apple and ATT are going to implement nationwide WIFI not 3G.

Here's the link to the article on macdailynews:
MacDailyNews - FCC approves 12MHz spectrum purchase deal by AT&T; U.S. iPhone to get nationwide WiFi?

Hmm. So what happens with the iPhone in the US in the meantime, before this is up and running? And what happens in other countries?

No, this doesn't mean there won't be a 3G iPhone - Apple may indeed use this network, but it doesn't preclude other options.

f1000 · Feb 7, 2008, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by kobi

Sorry to disappoint but there's not going to be a 3G iPhone. Based on news the FCC just approvied ATT's purchase of the 12MHZ spectrum in the 700MHZ spectrum from Aloha Spectrum holdings. The 12MHZ is perfect size for broadband and WIFI and the chunk of spectrum that it bought covers 60% of the US. Instead of a 3G iPhone, Apple and ATT are going to implement nationwide WIFI not 3G.

You're stating speculation as fact.

Eug · Feb 7, 2008, 01:32 PM

The above speculation doesn't make much sense.

P.S. Apple has already implemented WiFi on the iPhone anyways.

analogika · Feb 7, 2008, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by kobi

Instead of a 3G iPhone, Apple and ATT/O2/T-Mobile/NTT/Telecom Italia/Rogers/etc. are going to implement worldwide WIFI not 3G.

Edited to expose nonsense speculation.

giggs11 · Feb 7, 2008, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by kobi

Sorry to disappoint but there's not going to be a 3G iPhone.

MacDailyNews - FCC approves 12MHz spectrum purchase deal by AT&T; U.S. iPhone to get nationwide WiFi?

That's nice and all, but: AT&T joins Jobs in saying a 3G iPhone will come next year | Tech news blog - CNET News.com