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Windows on a Mac Pro
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Clinically Insane
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Aug 8, 2006, 03:46 PM
 
Maybe nobody can answer these yet, but a couple of things I was wondering:

1) Do you need one of the 64-bit editions of Windows to use Boot Camp on a Mac Pro?

2) Is Parallels able to run a normal version of Windows (or run at all)?
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Aug 8, 2006, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Maybe nobody can answer these yet, but a couple of things I was wondering:

1) Do you need one of the 64-bit editions of Windows to use Boot Camp on a Mac Pro?

2) Is Parallels able to run a normal version of Windows (or run at all)?
32-bit Windows works just fine on x86-64.
     
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Aug 8, 2006, 04:06 PM
 
Ah, sweet. I'd never used Windows on a 64-bit machine before, and I knew there were special 64-bit versions, so I was curious. Thanks.
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Aug 8, 2006, 04:39 PM
 
It takes the 64-bit version of Windows to take full advantage of the 64-bit architecture, but 32-bit Windows should run "just fine" too.

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Aug 8, 2006, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
It takes the 64-bit version of Windows to take full advantage of the 64-bit architecture, but 32-bit Windows should run "just fine" too.
If Apple doesn't give you 64-bit drivers for Mac Pro, you're pretty much limited to 32-bit Windows.
     
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Aug 8, 2006, 07:10 PM
 
Don't forget Vmware either!
http://winlab.csbnet.se Visit the Mac Demo Scene.
     
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Aug 8, 2006, 10:40 PM
 
VMWare currently has no Mac products, does it? So remembering it doesn't seem all that productive…
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Aug 9, 2006, 01:49 AM
 
So the rumors that they would have a major presentation at WWDC were inaccurate?

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Aug 9, 2006, 01:54 AM
 
Well, supposedly they're going to be planning to do something in a few months or something like that. I haven't heard that they've released anything. (I'm not at WWDC, though, so maybe they've made further announcements since? I dunno.)
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Aug 9, 2006, 02:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
So the rumors that they would have a major presentation at WWDC were inaccurate?
They announced VMWare for Mac and are taking applications for public beta.
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Aug 9, 2006, 09:25 AM
 
So I guess we can still safely remember them huh?
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Aug 9, 2006, 11:26 AM
 
First users of Mac Pro report Bootcamp is not working on Mac Pro as yet.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...=222939&page=7
     
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Aug 9, 2006, 04:50 PM
 
It's been my experience that the 64bit version of WIndows is garbage. Most drivers don't work, so we had to move our 64-bit Dells here back to the 32bit Windows.
     
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Aug 9, 2006, 06:24 PM
 
There just aren't enough 64-bit mode drivers, period. Lacking drivers makes the 64-bit OS unwieldy at best.

But there's a noticable speed boost in running 32-bit Windows on 64-bit hardware; the processor and support hardware are apparently built to emulate 32-bit hardware very well. This is a Good Thing®.

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Aug 9, 2006, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Maybe nobody can answer these yet, but a couple of things I was wondering:

2) Is Parallels able to run a normal version of Windows (or run at all)?
I am running Windows XP SP2 on MBP via Parallels. No problems
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Aug 9, 2006, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by astepanuks
I am running Windows XP SP2 on MBP via Parallels. No problems
You will perhaps note that "Mac Pro" and "MacBook Pro" are not the same product.
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 08:37 AM
 
It is reported that you don't need to run Bootcamp to get Windows XP on a Mac Pro. Drop in a 2nd SATA drive and reboot from CD. Install Windows on 2nd disk. Use Option at startup to choose which drive (O/S) to boot from. The updated Mac Pro firmware allows this.

Has anyone else tried this? I'm yet to try it as I don't have an XP SP2 CD.
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 08:44 AM
 
beancurd, if you have ANY XP install disc, you can create a SP2 version to install. See the "slipstreaming" thread tacked at the top of this forum.

I wish I had both a Mac Pro and the time to tinker so I could test this theory. It sounds like fun!

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Aug 11, 2006, 08:49 AM
 
Actually, there should be no need for an SP2 disk using this method. I'll give both ago! Alas, it must wait until the weekend.
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by beancurd
Actually, there should be no need for an SP2 disk using this method. I'll give both ago! Alas, it must wait until the weekend.
Yes there would.

You'd still need drivers.
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 03:45 PM
 
Boot Camp won't work properly (maybe not at all) if you try to install XP without SP2. You can CREATE a fully installable XP disc THAT INCLUDES SP2 using free software and the free SP2 download.

What do you mean "no need for an SP2 disk"?

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Chuckit  (op)
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Aug 11, 2006, 04:04 PM
 
He's saying the Mac Pro firmware includes a BIOS compatibility component, so you can just install XP on a slave drive and run it off of there without using Boot Camp. I think.
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Aug 11, 2006, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
He's saying the Mac Pro firmware includes a BIOS compatibility component, so you can just install XP on a slave drive and run it off of there without using Boot Camp. I think.
That's great, but where are you gonna get the drivers? (I know you're just clarifying his statement.)
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 04:15 PM
 
Yes that's right. Makes sense, I just have to try it
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 05:40 PM
 
Let's see if I understand this: You mean that, if you install Windows on something other than the primary/master drive, you don't think you'll need it to be up to SP2?

I think you're wrong for two reasons. First, Boot Camp installs a boot manager. That's what allows you to boot Windows, which does not use the same boot mechanism as OS X (not at ALL!). So if you install Windows on a second drive, how are you going to get it to boot? And if you expect to run Boot Camp to set up the boot manager, you'll STILL need SP2 because Boot Camp demands it.

Second, anyone running Windows without SP2 is asking for attacks on his machine-and they WILL come! The big thing about SP2 is that it brings in significant security features that protect the machine from hackers. Running without that patch level is foolish unless you NEVER connect the machine to anything at all. And how can you run any modern software without checking for fixes and updates online? In short, it's dumb to consider running XP without SP2. And since it's simple and easy to GET SP2, no matter what version your XP install disc is, there's no reason NOT TO run SP2.

Please step in and clarify what you meant if you didn't mean what I just discussed.

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Aug 11, 2006, 05:55 PM
 
ghporter, I'm happy to explain, but bear in mind I'm just posing a hypothetical. I saw someone say elsewhere they'd done this (can't for the life of me find it!), and it seems to make sense. I could well be wrong, though.

Prior to the release of Mac Pro, when you install bootcamp, you have to do a pre-bootcamp activity, namely update the firmware. It is this firmware that does the 'hold down Option' magic. Bootcamp itself only seems to a) do the partitioning, b) burn the drivers, c) kickstart the xp cd install.

The Mac Pro ships with updated firmware. If you use a 2nd drive, you have no need for the partitioning. So it sounds feasible to me that bootcamp itself is not needed if you use a dedicated drive. It's the drivers bit that concerns me, but I have my fingers crossed.

To clarify re XP SP2. I only have an old XP CD. I would never consider using non-SP2. But to get going I'm planning to use the XP CD and then use windows update to get it up to spec. Connecting without SP2 patch level is OK with the bunch of firewalls etc I've got going here. I'll try the slipstream method as a fallback, thanks for the info on how to do that.

Will update this thread once I've tried it (not for a few days).
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 06:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by beancurd
ghporter, I'm happy to explain, but bear in mind I'm just posing a hypothetical. I saw someone say elsewhere they'd done this (can't for the life of me find it!), and it seems to make sense. I could well be wrong, though.

Prior to the release of Mac Pro, when you install bootcamp, you have to do a pre-bootcamp activity, namely update the firmware. It is this firmware that does the 'hold down Option' magic. Bootcamp itself only seems to a) do the partitioning, b) burn the drivers, c) kickstart the xp cd install.

The Mac Pro ships with updated firmware. If you use a 2nd drive, you have no need for the partitioning. So it sounds feasible to me that bootcamp itself is not needed if you use a dedicated drive. It's the drivers bit that concerns me, but I have my fingers crossed.

To clarify re XP SP2. I only have an old XP CD. I would never consider using non-SP2. But to get going I'm planning to use the XP CD and then use windows update to get it up to spec. Connecting without SP2 patch level is OK with the bunch of firewalls etc I've got going here.

Will update this thread once I've tried it (not for a few days).
The hold-option magic is due to open firmware, and it's already on almost all new-world Macs (since 2000 or so), it is not anything that boot camp does.
I haven't used BootCamp, but ghporter makes it sound like BootCamp won't even install unless it's from an XPSP2 CD, which, as he's said, is easy to make. It would also be nice not to have to go through all of that Windows update garbage.
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 07:49 PM
 
Okay, let's add some clarity:
  1. BIOS/EFI/Boot Loaders: All Intel Macs use EFI to boot (not Open Firmware, which was used for PPC Macs). A firmware update at the start of April added legacy BIOS support, so non-EFI operating systems (Windows) could boot. So, all of the magic to start the boot process is in firmware.
  2. The Mac OS X 10.4.6 update included an updated version of "diskutil" that supported live resizing of HFS+ partitions. This is what allows you to resize your current drive and add a Windows partition without backing up and restoring.
  3. Boot Camp included a nice GUI for using those pieces, but the only thing in "Boot Camp" that actually makes a difference is the driver disk image that is buried in the Boot Camp Assistant. If you dig around in the application package and pull that out, you don't need the assistant itself for anything.

Now that the basics are covered, Boot Camp does REQUIRE Windows XP Service Pack 2 or later, specifically for hardware support. You cannot use any earlier version of Windows. If you don't have an SP2 CD, you can fairly easily make one with an original XP CD, the Network Install of Service Pack 2, and a variety of utilities (the simplest by far is AutoStreamer).

I've seen specific reports that the video drivers need to be updated from the vendor's website (NVidia, or ATI) and the Intel networking drivers need to be installed, at the very least. Furthermore, the very first phase of the Windows installer (the ugly text-based portion) cannot see any SATA drives beyond the first one, so for now you're stuck partitioning your main drive.

Read up on it a bit more, and check out the ArsTechnica review of the Mac Pro, which includes several important notes, in addition to those above.
     
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Aug 11, 2006, 10:58 PM
 
diamondsw, thanks for the clarification. I am still saving pennies for my Intel Mac (I'm hoping to get enough for a MacBook Pro), so I'm just passing on what I've read here and elsewhere. That the firmware supports BIOS booting is a shocker to me-I thought the firmware update was for an interpretive layer that connected BIOS function calls to the actual hardware for running Windows.

I find nlite quite useful, but it can be far from simple if all you're doing is slipstreaming SP2 into an older XP disc. But the Network Install looks like it'll be kind of complex by itself...even if you're just downloading it. I asked politely and Microsoft mailed me SP2 on disc, (free-they still do this), and that's what I've used to slipstream with.

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Aug 12, 2006, 09:38 AM
 
I don't think so but i have a Intel iMac and want to install Windows on a FW or USB drive, is it possible?
     
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Aug 12, 2006, 10:41 AM
 
Peter, you're right-it won't work. Sorry.

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Aug 12, 2006, 01:48 PM
 
Thanks, i'l have to use BootCamp then. We'll see how good it works but i'm a bit scared to use it on the startup disk.
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 12:23 AM
 
I've done Windows XP on my MacPro both ways, bootcamp and parallels. I have to tell you with the exception of gaming (haven't tried this) both methods owrked and continue to work flawlessly. I am leaning more and more towards parallels because so far I haven't found anything it can't do, plus it can do many things Boot Camp can't..any flavour of Linux I thrown at it, Windows 2000, and Windows NT. I initially set up bootcamp to run Quicken which I have run under Windows since about version 1, I just can't get used to the Mac Version after all these years. I've been running it under parallels lately without a hitch. Personally, as time gos by I am seeing 20 GB of HDD space that needs reclaiming since I never seem to need to boot to XP.

Oh, parallels also does one other thing bootcamp can't, it lets you use a SP1 version and download the SP2 upgrade.

One thing though, if you want to run XP in parallels it's just like anything else the more ram you throw at it the better. With 1GB you can give both XP and OSX 512 MB's and get really good performance. If you want to run a third OS at the same time you better get more ram.
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 02:44 AM
 
Murgen, so let me see if I understand this correctly..

I can get my Pro delivered, go down and buy a retail copy of XP, and install it onto one of my drives in the Pro and boot into XP (using the option key) at will and no problems? Display drivers, printer drivers, etc??

I sure hope so.
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Aug 13, 2006, 03:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by UnixMac
Murgen, so let me see if I understand this correctly..

I can get my Pro delivered, go down and buy a retail copy of XP, and install it onto one of my drives in the Pro and boot into XP (using the option key) at will and no problems? Display drivers, printer drivers, etc??

I sure hope so.
But if you are trying to install XP onto a second drive in your mac pro without using boot camp how will you boot from the XP CD, will you just be able to hold down the C key to boot from it?. Would be great if this was possible as not so keen on having windows on my primary partition.
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 11:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by wildeep
But if you are trying to install XP onto a second drive in your mac pro without using boot camp how will you boot from the XP CD, will you just be able to hold down the C key to boot from it?. Would be great if this was possible as not so keen on having windows on my primary partition.
that's what I was getting to... I got the impression that he just installed it on a drive.. maybe with the option Key or something to get it to boot off CD... I'm curious as I don't have my machine yet to try it.
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Aug 13, 2006, 12:32 PM
 
Installed Windows fine using boot camp and installed drivers as recommended in ars technica article mentioned above. All worked fine. However, the audio does not work. Anyone know which drivers I should install for audio?

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Aug 13, 2006, 12:36 PM
 
The first step in the original Boot Camp's process was to install a new firmware version on your Intel Mac-this provided legacy BIOS compatibility, so Boot Camp per se is not handling the boot options. However, you still need Boot Camp's drivers, don't you?

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Aug 13, 2006, 12:38 PM
 
The boot camp drivers don't work on the mac pro as yet. So there is no option byt to install the drivers once you are in windows. Can't find any reference to audio though.

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Aug 13, 2006, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Murgen
I've done Windows XP on my MacPro both ways, bootcamp and parallels.
Parallels is not running on the Mac Pro yet..... how did you get it to work?

Or did you mean your MacBook Pro?
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 05:36 PM
 
Parallels is not working on Mac Pro desk top no. Not tried that. But boot camp will if you install drivers once windows is up and running. It starts in 4 bit colour.

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Aug 13, 2006, 06:57 PM
 
No need for BootCamp on the new Mac Pros. The Mac Pro will boot a regular Windows XP install disc, and you can then proceed to install XP onto another drive/partition. Then, when booting your Mac Pro, you just choose the disk to start up from.
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 07:00 PM
 
OMG, thats all i can say.

The Mac has become a regular PC, offering osX via Dell is only a small step now.
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Peter Bonte
OMG, thats all i can say.

The Mac has become a regular PC, offering osX via Dell is only a small step now.
Apple doesn't make huge profit on the sale of Dells. So no.
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Aug 13, 2006, 07:07 PM
 
have you tried that? It is true it boots up from windows XP disk, but is it that simple with the bios. Maybe I will try it tomorrow.
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Aug 13, 2006, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Apple doesn't make huge profit on the sale of Dells. So no.
It doesn't make a huge profit on the mini either, $80 for a OEM license isn't that bad. It would really piss off MS that is going to have a hard time selling Vista to OEM's at $150. Undercutting Dell in the high end is the first step, it forces them to offer low cost machines with osX.

Think of the growth opportunities. Apple won't license fairplay or WMA until MS has a 50% marketshare. Duh, but in the computer world MS has a 50%+ marketshare so ...
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 10:18 PM
 
Nope. Apple is nowhere near a position to start selling OS X for non-Macs. They've said they won't and there's no reason for them to. And OS X does NOT boot via BIOS, so your basic Dell won't boot it. Not at all.

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Aug 13, 2006, 10:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
And OS X does NOT boot via BIOS, so your basic Dell won't boot it. Not at all.
Not as it ships on current Intel Macs, anyway.
     
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Aug 14, 2006, 03:37 AM
 
Its a small piece of software, technically there is no hurdle at all. This is a pure management decision now.

Apple never had a problem licensing there software to OEM's if they think its the best thing to do, Pippin comes to mind, the other clones and the Motorola phone. iTunes and QuickTime are also available to Windows and look how it helped Apple, 3% is just to small a marketshare and licensing is certainly something that is being considered.
     
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Aug 14, 2006, 03:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Peter Bonte
It doesn't make a huge profit on the mini either, $80 for a OEM license isn't that bad. It would really piss off MS that is going to have a hard time selling Vista to OEM's at $150. Undercutting Dell in the high end is the first step, it forces them to offer low cost machines with osX.

Think of the growth opportunities. Apple won't license fairplay or WMA until MS has a 50% marketshare. Duh, but in the computer world MS has a 50%+ marketshare so ...
Dude, look at Apple's earnings. You are suggesting a hardware company should sabotage their hardware.
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