[NDBounce]

My palm 515 was stolen. I got insurance money. I waited for palm OS 5 like a good boy, and now, after looking at the price I am beginning to think it's better for me to replace my Palm 515 with a Toshiba pocket PC. Can anyone confirm/deny this?


Here's what I do with my PDA:

1) Sync with Entourage
2) Use Avant Go to download info from a prayer website.
3) Use Vindigo
4) Use it to keep me occupied in airports (ie play cribbage)

That's about it. I like the idea of not needing to buy a new PDA in, oh, lets say 3-5 years. (I'm running on a iBook rev A as my MAIN (and only) machine. I run Jaguar.

I have $400 to spend from my insurance claim. I am currently thinking that Palm OS 5 probably isn't worth the extra $100 at this point. But I may be missing something. I have heard that there are ways to ge the Pocket PC's to sync with a mac, and I have seen that the Toshiba Models are within the $400 that my insurance claim gave me. These seem to be better than the Palm 515, but I am uncertain as I have never really used one.

Any info or advice on which would suit my needs best is appreciated.

Also, if anyone has experience with using a Pocket PC and syncing with Entourage I would appreciate that as well.

Peace,

Bounce!

[Anomalous]

To sync a PocketPC with a Mac, you will have to buy extra software, which will bring the total price pretty close to that of the Tungsten T.

[klinux]

The software is http://www.pocketmac.net/.

Looking at your requirement, you are better off with either a Palm m5xx series or a Clie (highly preferred). Check out http://www.pdabuzz.com for reviews and comments and the best thing to do is go to a store and try them out.

[Nebrie]

Find a place that will let you return products without a restocking fee and try them out. Just a few months ago, I decided to make the switch to PocketPC. Unfortunately, I soon realized that it just wasn't for me and I hated it and went back to Palm.

[Justin W. Williams]

If you use Entourage, I dont see why not get a PocketPC. The new Palm Tungsten disappoints me. For that price tag, it should have a lot more memory IMO.

That Toshiba PocketPC w/ built in 802.11b looks awesome.

I'd get it, but I hate Entourage compared to AddressBook, Mail.app, and iCal.

[El Pre$idente]

Palms are crap even witih the new OS5. Technologically they are 2 years behind Pocket PC. They offer no advantage whatsoever apart from compatibility with Macs (though not all Palm PDAs).

-They have no file browser.
-They have no networking
-Thus they have no network file browsing
-They don't have multi-tasking, only save states. Thus no mp3 playing while browsing the web or using any other app.
-OS5 still has no mp3 player yet.
-The Tungsten T offers a tiny better performance over 66Mhz Dragonball CPUs. The Toshiba e740 has a 400Mhz chip AND an ATI graphics chip AND 802.11 built in.
-The Tungsten T has no support for compact flash and therefore offers very little room for expansion.
-The battery life on the Tungsten T is half the life of an iPaq.

[jimsmac]

Do any of the pocket pcs have true one handed operation?

I read a review on the Tungsten and the one handed operation looks pretty cool. (eg looking up a contact, and dialling one of their numbers on your bluetooth mobile without even opening the Palm's cover)

Click here for the review.

[klinux]

Yes, many PPC (but not all) has a jog dial to allow one-handed operation. Personally, I still find it too lunky though i.e. not as fast as using a stylus.

Justine Williams: I am not sure if he can sync AvantGo, Vindigo, Mazingo, etc via a Mac though. Can anybody confirm?

Oh, NDBounce, if you can wait, then wait until Dell and Viewsonic introduce their low $$$ PPC (but still packed with features!) in another month. Both PPC and Palm devices' prices should drop like a brick.

[El Pre$idente]

Originally posted by jimsmac:
Do any of the pocket pcs have true one handed operation?

I read a review on the Tungsten and the one handed operation looks pretty cool. (eg looking up a contact, and dialling one of their numbers on your bluetooth mobile without even opening the Palm's cover)

Click here for the review.

My Cassiopeia E115 is two and a half years old and has a jogdial and side buttons. This is old technology. This PDA still kicks any Palm and its slower than all the current PPCs.

[klinux]

Second thought, Wall Street Journal/AP said today that Dell will not (formally) introduce a PDA until next year.

[Justin W. Williams]

Originally posted by klinux:

Justine Williams: I am not sure if he can sync AvantGo, Vindigo, Mazingo, etc via a Mac though. Can anybody confirm?

AvantGo will never release an OS X client, so thats a moot topic IMO.

[jimsmac]

Originally posted by El Pre$idente:


My Cassiopeia E115 is two and a half years old and has a jogdial and side buttons. This is old technology. This PDA still kicks any Palm and its slower than all the current PPCs.

I agree, that on paper the ppcs look much better by miles. But I bet this new Palm sells like crazy. The question is why do Palms still sell if they are so inferior?

[klinux]

I bet you it won't. PPC has been gaining in market share steadily (over 30% in latest Datawauest survey). But please, at least get a Clie!

[torifile]

I've got the toshiba e740 (the one with built in wifi). If you're running jag, you can't use pocketmac. At least not yet. That said, the machine stands on it's own pretty well. I've got an ABS that I can connect to so I can sync avantgo without having to hook up to my computer. There are actually quite a few programs that can be installed just by downloading the .CAB file (seems like that could be a security issue, but whatever....) and I can browse my home directory on my mac and open files from it without a problem. The palm can do none of this. Really, PPC's are way better. The UI is not nearly as nice, but they are much more powerful.

Don't believe the spec hype though. 400mhz on my e740 is actually slower than the 206 strongarm that is in many of the slightly older models. windows ce has not been optimized for the Xscale that's being used. It's just typical extend-the-pipeline-for-faster-clockspeeds by intel. And the ATi card is not yet fully supported by applications, but that's really not important either. Finally, RAM and ROM size on PPC's is ALWAYS greater, but that's because the apps take more resources. Oh, and PPC apps are harder to find (on your favorite C* server) and are more expensive, if that matters. Despite all this, I still think that the PPC is better. My 2¢.

[jimsmac]

Originally posted by klinux:
I bet you it won't. PPC has been gaining in market share steadily (over 30% in latest Datawauest survey). But please, at least get a Clie!

Yes, the Clies are nice, but last time I looked they too do not support Macs out of the box. Although the hardware is nice this lack of support pushes me away from the Clie range. What are the chances of PPC and Clies supporting Mac out of the box in the future?

[El Pre$idente]

Originally posted by jimsmac:


I agree, that on paper the ppcs look much better by miles. But I bet this new Palm sells like crazy. The question is why do Palms still sell if they are so inferior?

Simple. Fear of Microsoft. It doesn't matter if the product is better, people simply hate super rich companies no matter what. Palm had a head start anyway.

[NDBounce]

Originally posted by torifile:
I've got the toshiba e740 (the one with built in wifi). If you're running jag, you can't use pocketmac. ...I've got an ABS that I can connect to so I can sync avantgo without having to hook up to my computer. There are actually quite a few programs that can be installed just by downloading the .CAB file

Okay, now I'm really getting some good (and interesting) info. So let me state, I don't know what a .CAB file is, but I'm going to assume it is the equivalent of the .PRC file on a Palm (correct me if I am wrong).

I also have an ABS and an airport network, so it seems that may change things a bit and shift my decision more towards PPC.

Now you state that the Toshiba cannot sync with Jag, I assume that means it won't sync with entourage (even via airport).

I assume you are syncing avantgo by directly connecting the Toshiba to the ABS rather than doing a hotsync, correct? How difficult is this to do?

Also, how do you back up your PDA if you can't sync with Jag (do you sync with classic, vps, etc).

I have VPC with WIN 98, but I hate running it as it is slower than an overweight snail on my puter.

Thank you guys for the input. I think I am leaning on PPC, with the possibility of a CLIE. IF someone can tell me what it will take to get a clie to sync with Jag I'd also appreciate that.

Peace,

O
B unce!

[El Pre$idente]

Originally posted by NDBounce:



Okay, now I'm really getting some good (and interesting) info. So let me state, I don't know what a .CAB file is, but I'm going to assume it is the equivalent of the .PRC file on a Palm (correct me if I am wrong).

I also have an ABS and an airport network, so it seems that may change things a bit and shift my decision more towards PPC.

Now you state that the Toshiba cannot sync with Jag, I assume that means it won't sync with entourage (even via airport).

I assume you are syncing avantgo by directly connecting the Toshiba to the ABS rather than doing a hotsync, correct? How difficult is this to do?

Also, how do you back up your PDA if you can't sync with Jag (do you sync with classic, vps, etc).
Peace,

O
B unce!

A .cab file is a compressed file like a stuffit file. Backing up the PPC is easy with either compact flash cards that can be read with OSX or by simply networking with a Mac and copying files from one folder to another. Unlike the Palm, the PPC has a proper file manager and networking. It's a proper operating system.

[kidtexas]

Originally posted by jimsmac:


Yes, the Clies are nice, but last time I looked they too do not support Macs out of the box. Although the hardware is nice this lack of support pushes me away from the Clie range. What are the chances of PPC and Clies supporting Mac out of the box in the future?

Clies sync out of the box with OS X - the basic palm stuff at least. To get access to memory sticks on the desktop, mp3's from itunes -> clie, and iphoto -> clie, get the Missing Sync.

[torifile]

Originally posted by NDBounce:



Okay, now I'm really getting some good (and interesting) info. So let me state, I don't know what a .CAB file is, but I'm going to assume it is the equivalent of the .PRC file on a Palm (correct me if I am wrong).

You are correct. .cab files can be downloaded from a site and installed right on your PPC. The trick is to know what processor you're using so you can download the right one (it's not that hard to find out).

I also have an ABS and an airport network, so it seems that may change things a bit and shift my decision more towards PPC.

Now you state that the Toshiba cannot sync with Jag, I assume that means it won't sync with entourage (even via airport).

I assume you are syncing avantgo by directly connecting the Toshiba to the ABS rather than doing a hotsync, correct? How difficult is this to do?

Also correct. I've got the e740 which has wifi out of the box. The avantgo connection program is already installed. All you have to do is enter your username/pass and hit sync. You can update your subscriptions right from there too, so no need to worry about using a client on your desktop.

Also, how do you back up your PDA if you can't sync with Jag (do you sync with classic, vps, etc).

I have VPC with WIN 98, but I hate running it as it is slower than an overweight snail on my puter.

Unfortunately, I've got to use VPC to sync and backup. You could do Pre$'s method of networking your computer and moving files that way too. It's really a snap. OTOH, once you get VPC working right, all you've got to do is fire it up from a saved state, hit sync on the pda and wait. I just do it for security more than anything else.

HTH.

[jimsmac]

Originally posted by kidtexas:


Clies sync out of the box with OS X - the basic palm stuff at least. To get access to memory sticks on the desktop, mp3's from itunes -> clie, and iphoto -> clie, get the Missing Sync.

Really? Or does this basic functionality come from Palm's own hotsync and desktop software for the Mac. Is this packaged with the Clie? I saw no mention of Mac on the Clie box last time I looked (probably a good 6 months ago), and when I asked the guy in the Sony shop told me it was the Macs fault that it wasn't supported! (How he would explaind Palm being able to do it then would be interesting.)

[klinux]

Another way of backing up is to directly back up to a CF card.

The .cab was a major problem when PocketPC use to run on three diffent kind of processors (SH3, MIPS, and StrongArm) but PocketPC 2002 is now standardized on StrongArm and most programs are on SA.

[kidtexas]

Originally posted by jimsmac:


Really? Or does this basic functionality come from Palm's own hotsync and desktop software for the Mac. Is this packaged with the Clie? I saw no mention of Mac on the Clie box last time I looked (probably a good 6 months ago), and when I asked the guy in the Sony shop told me it was the Macs fault that it wasn't supported! (How he would explaind Palm being able to do it then would be interesting.)

No, that is right, the CD in the box is all PC. But you can download Palm Desktop 4 for OS X online, and you get all the basic hotsync functions - installing files (even to mem stick I think), backup, syncing of address, memos, todos, and datebook. Install iSync, and syncing to Address Book and iCal work great. There are some mail conduits (Mail, Entourage) and a Eudora Address book conduit.

I have a PEG-SJ30 - A basic color unit - no MP3's, no cameras, etc. I think even for the badass Clie's with cameras and mp3 players, the missing sync will let you sync itunes and iphoto to the clie, but all I would get from the missing sync is the ability to mount my memory stick (which I don't have) to the desktop.

All in all, it works perfectly. No workarounds, no nothing, just works.

Furthermore, Sony just dropped the prices on all of these. Mine was 300, but now you can get it at Best Buy for 250-$25 rebate=225. The B&W model is even cheaper. CompUSA had my model for 250, but you get a free 128 mb mem stick (after rebates). Also, battery life seems pretty god damn good.

The big downside is that you are basically stuck with hotsync. PPC seems to be a lot better for networking with the wireless stuff.

[Riddler]

Indeed Palm is behind PPC but not as far as suggested above. I am awaiting delivery of my Palm Tungsten T at the moment after thoroughly reading as much info as I could, here's some interesting points:

1. Pocket Word / Excel are limiting on the PPC, they're only viewers. With Documents To Go 5 included with the TT you can not only look at but edit these files.

2. MHz - the TT uses a TI OMAP processor with ARM core at 144Mhz and in preliminary tests is 84 times faster than the PalmIII. It stands up well against any current PPC. I never want to play Doom3 at 320x320 anyway :-)

3. Wireless - TT has BlueTooth built in, you can Sync to Mac with it, connect to a BlueTooth mobile for mobile net access, and connect to the Net via your BlueTooth enabled Mac. I look forward to walking around my home with ICQ running on my Tungsten wires free. If you want 802.11 it can be added to the Tungstens SD slot, or buy a Clie NX70 and add it to it's CF slot.

4. Battery life - never believe what the manufacturers say. The battery life of the TT is very similar to the latest iPAQ's

5. Size - The iPAQ is massive compared to the TT.

6. MP3 - an MP3 player will be out shortly for the TT (free) - anyway I have an iPod for that!

7. Windows and DRM - all of the copy protection stuff MS is diving into at the moment will makes it way onto PPC.

8. Memory size - took me quite a while to fill 2Mb on my trusty Palm V, doubt I'll get anywhere near filling the 14Mb of the Tungsten, or the 256Mb MM card I can slip in it.

Can't wait for my TT to arrive.

[El Pre$idente]

Originally posted by Riddler:

1. Pocket Word / Excel are limiting on the PPC, they're only viewers. With Documents To Go 5 included with the TT you can not only look at but edit these files.
[/B]

You don't deserve a PPC or TT with that statement and the others.

[Big-C]

NDBounce: The best advise in this thread came from Nebrie; get it from a place that will let you return it if you don't like it. My local Office Depot has a pretty decent return policy.

I've been lured into the promise of PPC via the great hardware specs. Unfortunately, I found the PPC's to be lacking for real-world use.

The reason battery life comes into the discussion so much is because it's a total failure on the PPC; I'm sure there are "stress tests" that show an ipaq can last as long as a palm pilot while running video, but it is a misleading test. I travel for 3 days at a time (not a long time), and come home with my palm (TT) at 50% power. When I tried it with the ipaq & e740, they both died on day 2 of the trip.

PPC filesystem - I don't like it - hard to find info when you're in a hurry. Unlike palm, "Find" finds your info very quickly, and in every place on the pda. For me, this is extremely useful.

e740 had a worse screen from ipaq, but I thought wireless networking would be cool. After about 30 minutes of it and getting a warning to shut the e740 off (due to low battery), I got over it. Also, the browser's functionality is limited, so not all pages display correctly (or quickly).

Memory was a problem too; I can put more apps on a 16mb palm than I can on a 32mb ppc. Not sure why, but that's the reality of it. Also, the apps were more expensive on the ppc; maybe over time more freeware or cheaper shareware will eliminate that obstacle.

I know this has come across as anti-ppc, but that's just been my experience. Just figured another point of view couldn't hurt.

Maybe it'll work better for you.

[jimsmac]

Battery life is key. I was out of the office 10 days recenty and didn't even consider the need to take a charger with me for my Vx.

Take a look on www.pdabuzz.com. I've seen some threads were people own multiples of both OS and take the Palm with them when they're out and about due to it's size and battery life. I guess if they own both they're not particulalry biased either (although i suppose it's possible).

[Nebrie]

Originally posted by El Pre$idente:


You don't deserve a PPC or TT with that statement and the others.

Actually, the PPC's Word and Excel, while not viewers, are limited in features compared to what's avaliable on the Palm (the biggest complaint by PPC users is that they can't have tables in PocketWord for example.)

[El Pre$idente]

Originally posted by Nebrie:


Actually, the PPC's Word and Excel, while not viewers, are limited in features compared to what's avaliable on the Palm (the biggest complaint by PPC users is that they can't have tables in PocketWord for example.)

Don't be smart. I have a PPC and a TT. Pocket Word KILLS Word To Go. I can't emphasise the word KILL enough. At the moment, until Palm OS6 comes out, the PPC KILLS Palm on every count except form factor and Mac compatibility.

I say again KILLS. I wish I could use a font size 72 to emphasise it.

[torifile]

Just want to correct another point in that long list of falsehoods presented by Riddler:

You can't add 802.11b through an SD slot. It's not even an option yet and won't be until at least Q1 of 2003 (at least 3 months away).

[Mike Pither]

A ppc may "kill" a palm but I choose a simple slim palm powered b/w visor edge. It may not be able to play a handful of mp3s or show a few seconds of video on a beatiful colur screen but the battery doesn't go flat in a couple of days and it doesn't feel like I am carrying half a brick in my pocket when I am out and about.

It really depends what you want it for. For me the simple slim and light visor gave me what I want (Agenda / address book / expenses utility / to do facility & memo pad as std + games an English / italian translation dictionary and documents to go which I installed separately) , others may want something different.

[Riddler]

I bought an iPaq

Only joking, so a few things I said were slightly wrong (I composed it quickly what can I say), the version of PocketWord/Excel I was shown by a friend were out of date compared to the latest versions.

Also you may not be able to get a WiFi SD card yet but you can get one that connects to the Universal connecter, and an SD one is coming.

I got my TT today, impressed so far, SplashPhoto is superb.

Spent sometime playing with the top end 400Mhz iPaq yesterday, it was an improvement on what I had previously seen but I just think that the PPC definition of a PDA is "a small PC with a pen" whilst the Palm aims to be a "a small companion to a Desktop"

I think it comes down to what you want from your PDA, if you want an all singing all dancing chunky PDA, don't mind no official Mac support and having to look at a Start button all the time then give the PPC a whurl, however if you want something small, elegant with a good Mac user base try the Palm.

Finally, it depresses me seeing how hostile some people can be in this forum, there's no need, correcting someones mistakes is fine, simply saying "your wrong, this KILLS this" is pretty childish.

[jimsmac]

Just got back from town where I got the chance to see a Tungsten T in the flesh. I would say I was really impressed with the clarity and brightness of the screen, but wasn't that impressed with the unit when you consider what it costs. The 'navigator' seemed really wobbly and the OS didn't look significantly different to what's on my Vx. Next to it they had a Sony SJ30 for half the price and pretty much the same size.

Having said all that, neither is enough of a difference to make me want to part with my Vx. (The only major one being the colour screen).

If these Sonys are so good for the money, what's going to happen to Mac support if Palm go down the pan?

[Timothy Maxwell]

Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
Palms are crap even witih the new OS5. Technologically they are 2 years behind Pocket PC. They offer no advantage whatsoever apart from compatibility with Macs (though not all Palm PDAs).

-They have no file browser.
-They have no networking
-Thus they have no network file browsing
-They don't have multi-tasking, only save states. Thus no mp3 playing while browsing the web or using any other app.
-OS5 still has no mp3 player yet.
-The Tungsten T offers a tiny better performance over 66Mhz Dragonball CPUs. The Toshiba e740 has a 400Mhz chip AND an ATI graphics chip AND 802.11 built in.
-The Tungsten T has no support for compact flash and therefore offers very little room for expansion.
-The battery life on the Tungsten T is half the life of an iPaq.

Obviously, you do not know the difference between a PDA and a personal computer.

[Timothy Maxwell]

Originally posted by Big-C:
NDBounce: The best advise in this thread came from Nebrie; get it from a place that will let you return it if you don't like it. My local Office Depot has a pretty decent return policy.

I've been lured into the promise of PPC via the great hardware specs. Unfortunately, I found the PPC's to be lacking for real-world use.

The reason battery life comes into the discussion so much is because it's a total failure on the PPC; I'm sure there are "stress tests" that show an ipaq can last as long as a palm pilot while running video, but it is a misleading test. I travel for 3 days at a time (not a long time), and come home with my palm (TT) at 50% power. When I tried it with the ipaq & e740, they both died on day 2 of the trip.

PPC filesystem - I don't like it - hard to find info when you're in a hurry. Unlike palm, "Find" finds your info very quickly, and in every place on the pda. For me, this is extremely useful.

e740 had a worse screen from ipaq, but I thought wireless networking would be cool. After about 30 minutes of it and getting a warning to shut the e740 off (due to low battery), I got over it. Also, the browser's functionality is limited, so not all pages display correctly (or quickly).

Memory was a problem too; I can put more apps on a 16mb palm than I can on a 32mb ppc. Not sure why, but that's the reality of it. Also, the apps were more expensive on the ppc; maybe over time more freeware or cheaper shareware will eliminate that obstacle.

I know this has come across as anti-ppc, but that's just been my experience. Just figured another point of view couldn't hurt.

Maybe it'll work better for you.

I agree with Big-C. PPC seem to be way overstated. If I needed a laptop I would buy one. The Palm TT is great because it's small, fast, easy to access, syncs well with the Mac OS and has a great screen.

[klinux]

Tungsten is even more overstated and I can guarantee it will be a big failure.

If you want something that is simple, small, has color screen, and syncs with Mac, then Palm m515 is what you want. If you want a great screen, then be prepared to pay the $200+ premium that Tungsten has over m515.

And like it or not, PDA is a small computer and people are demanding more and more from it. Why else would Palm move to a faster CPU and a more complicated system?

New PPCs introduced by Dell and Viewsonic absolutely kills Tungsten in both price and performance. No sync to Mac though, of course, but the blame has to be spread evenly across Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Sharp, and the OEM vendors as well for not suppporting other PDA platforms on Macs.

[NDBounce]

Okay,

Well I took the davice to buy from a store and try it out for a few days.

I just bought an iPaq last night, and have not had much time to play with it yet.

It seems a lot more complicated than the Palm OS, but then again, I am not used to it yet.

I definitely find the system to be big and bulky compared to the Palm V and 500 series.

But I am going to use it in everyday life for the next week to two weeks and see how it works out.

I bought the iPaq b/c it seemed more expandable, but I am also wondering if I shouldn't have given the toshiba a better look. The one with built in wi-fi was out of my price range at the moment, so I would hev had to get an e335 (I think that is teh right model # anyway).

Does anyone have advice on the toshiba 335 vs the ipaq 3885

Also, can bluetooth be added to the PPC?

If so, is it the same card that works in the Palm devices?

And if bluetooth can be added, does it sync with isync?

Peace,

Bounce

[sja777]

Originally posted by Timothy Maxwell:
Obviously, you do not know the difference between a PDA and a personal computer.

Quite right. El Pre$idente is an idiot. This isn't a d*ck-measuring contest ... it's a discussion about what works better.

Yes, the Palm has less memory. Yes, the Palm has a slower processor. Yes, on paper the PPC seems better. But in terms of usability and doing what it is supposed to do, the Palm wins hands down. For what most people need a PDA for the Palm is far better. It's been designed from the ground up to be powerful, yet simple to use.

If you want to watch video on the go, get a portable DVD player. If you want to listen to music, get an iPod. If you want a simple-to-use and easy-to-use PDA, get a Palm.

Oh, and by the way, DataViz's Word To Go does suck; but there are better Word Processors available for the Palm. WordSmith wipes the floor with any of the competition.

Stephen

[torifile]

Bounce:

I don't have direct information about a comparison between the e335 and the iPaq, but there's some stuff I know about them. The iPaq is definitely heavier but it's got way more accessories because that form factor has been out there for a while. The e335 is new, as you know, but it's definitely smaller. I personally like the toshiba form better also. As far as syncing via bluetooth, I don't know. I'm pretty sure that it would work. Go to http://discussion.brighthand.com/for...amp;forumid=81 and ask. They will know for sure.