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tobster · Jan 21, 2003, 07:03 PM

Why does Apple use the DVD-R instead? What are the advantages of each format?

Will I be able to use an external DVD+R burner through FireWire?

- tobs

Eug · Jan 21, 2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by tobster:
Why does Apple use the DVD-R instead? What are the advantages of each format?

Will I be able to use an external DVD+R burner through FireWire?

- tobs

Check my sig.

Jansar · Jan 21, 2003, 11:27 PM

A stupid competition pitch, that's all. Someone one day said, "Hey, let's create another DVD format!"

And they did.

tobster · Jan 22, 2003, 10:03 AM

Thank you.

- tobs

solitere · Jan 22, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by tobster:
Why does Apple use the DVD-R instead?
- tobs

Sheaper Discs ???

Eug · Jan 22, 2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by solitere:
Sheaper Discs ???

No. + didn't exist when - came out.

The + stuff only came out recently, and doesn't really offer much advantage so there would be absolutely no point for Apple to switch. The + and - stuff perform very similar functions.

Also, the - standard is what was approved by the DVD Forum, if that means anything.

The 3rd major standard is DVD-RAM, which is also a DVD Forum approved standard. However, it has more use in the data market because the format is incompatible with most DVD players. It is much better in terms of data integrity compared to DVD-RW or +RW. DVD-RW/-R/-RAM combo drives exist too. In fact, some Macs already have these combo drives (like TiBooks, AluBooks, iMacs and possibly some PowerMacs), but for some reason Apple has removed DVD-RAM support (and DVD-RW support in the case of the laptops).

mrchin · Jan 22, 2003, 07:45 PM

- is more widely acceptable. I was in Best Buy yesterday, buying a new DVD player to work with my burned iDVD-R discs and most of the new Toshiba's, Sony's, RCA's and Panasonics had DVD-R compatibility. I only found one VCR/DVD combo player for like $400 that also allowed DVD+R playback. No way, stick with what's accepted.

SirCastor · Jan 23, 2003, 05:00 PM

DVD+RW shouldn't be misconstrued as an underdog/limited format (Like DVD-RAM). One of the goals of the format is to be completely backwards compatible, so a player which says it plays back DVD+RW is being rather deceitful in it's marketing. Most players which will play DVD-R will play DVD+RW/R. The Format's not that young, I read a couple of white papers on this more than a year ago.

More information about + can be found here:http://www.dvdrw.com/

There is no emergent winner at this point, the two stand on equal ground, and it's uncertain who will come out on top. One of the strong benefits of +RW (and I don't know where - stands on this) is that it can be recorded to on the fly. No encoding is necessary.

Sony recently released a drive which will burn both.

Eug · Jan 23, 2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by SirCastor:
DVD+RW shouldn't be misconstrued as an underdog/limited format (Like DVD-RAM). One of the goals of the format is to be completely backwards compatible, so a player which says it plays back DVD+RW is being rather deceitful in it's marketing. Most players which will play DVD-R will play DVD+RW/R. The Format's not that young, I read a couple of white papers on this more than a year ago.

More information about + can be found here:http://www.dvdrw.com/

There is no emergent winner at this point, the two stand on equal ground, and it's uncertain who will come out on top. One of the strong benefits of +RW (and I don't know where - stands on this) is that it can be recorded to on the fly. No encoding is necessary.

Sony recently released a drive which will burn both.

I should point out that www.dvdrw.com is a + PR site. You'll get the same mumbo jumbo at the - PR site too.

The bottom line is that while +R and DVD-R are both fairly well tolerated by DVD players, +RW (like DVD-RW) has significantly lower rates of compatibility.

As for DVD-RAM, it's limited since it's not primarily a video playback format. On the other hand, it is by far the most robust solution for data purposes.

As for being able to "be recorded to on the fly. No encoding is necessary", that makes no sense. I have no idea what you mean by that. Encoding video is completely separate from recording it. DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, and +RW all have real-time video recording solutions. Ironically, the best real-time consumer DVD recorders have historically been Pioneer and Panasonic, which are DVD-RW/DVD-R and DVD-RAM/DVD-R respectively. I hear that Philips, which does +RW, has recently come close in matching their quality though.

pdot · Jan 24, 2003, 01:30 AM

Apple chose to go with DVD-R b/c it's compatible with current DVD players whereas DVD+R may not be. The Superdrives are capable of burning DVD-RW discs, but Apple isn't advertising that b/c of the past problem with DVD-RAM. They don't want users to get upset about dropping support for something that got pushed out of the competition, so until the format gets settled for rewriteable DVDs, Apple is playing it safe with DVD-R.

Eug · Jan 24, 2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by pdot:
Apple chose to go with DVD-R b/c it's compatible with current DVD players whereas DVD+R may not be. The Superdrives are capable of burning DVD-RW discs, but Apple isn't advertising that b/c of the past problem with DVD-RAM. They don't want users to get upset about dropping support for something that got pushed out of the competition, so until the format gets settled for rewriteable DVDs, Apple is playing it safe with DVD-R.

No, +R and DVD-R have similar rates of compatibility. Apple chose DVD-R because no other R technology existed at the time. ie. +R wasn't even an option. (I betcha they still would have chosen DVD-R for other reasons even if +R had existed, but back then +R didn't exist so the question is moot.)

Also not all SuperDrives support DVD-RW by the way. The laptop drives do not.

driven · Jan 25, 2003, 11:58 PM

DVD-R is supported in about 95% of the current DVD players on the market.

DVD+R is supported by about 75% of the current DVD players on the market. (But improving)

And no .... +R didn't exist when Apple first released the SuperDrive.

tr · Jan 26, 2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Eug:

Also not all SuperDrives support DVD-RW by the way. The laptop drives do not.

yeah, what's up with that? i didn't know that was the case until i saw a few posts talking about that. did apple mess with the drive firmware so it wouldn't burn to DVD-RW's?

tr

Eug · Jan 26, 2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by driven:
DVD-R is supported in about 95% of the current DVD players on the market.

DVD+R is supported by about 75% of the current DVD players on the market. (But improving)

+R and DVD-R compatibility are similar, depending on what you read. 95% compatibility would be a bit optimistic though, even for current players.

jamerican · Jan 26, 2003, 09:40 AM

Will I be able to use an external DVD+R burner through FireWire?

- tobs [/B]

You will only be able to use a Firewire DVD+R drive as CD-R drive with a Mac. Apple does not support DVD+RW/+R. I am now trying to sell my Ikebana FW DVD+RW (Ricoh 5152A) drive as I have just learned about the non-support.

tobster · Jan 26, 2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by jamerican:
You will only be able to use a Firewire DVD+R drive as CD-R drive with a Mac. Apple does not support DVD+RW/+R. I am now trying to sell my Ikebana FW DVD+RW (Ricoh 5152A) drive as I have just learned about the non-support.

Wrong, decided to test this and it worked. HP burner.

- tobs

pdot · Jan 26, 2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Eug:
No, +R and DVD-R have similar rates of compatibility. Apple chose DVD-R because no other R technology existed at the time. ie. +R wasn't even an option. (I betcha they still would have chosen DVD-R for other reasons even if +R had existed, but back then +R didn't exist so the question is moot.)

Thanks for the correction.

tooki · Jan 26, 2003, 07:07 PM

This isn't a Power Mac question. Off to Peripherals it goes. Please take care to post in the correct forum.

tooki

Wet Jimmy · Jan 27, 2003, 06:57 PM

Here's a compatibility list for the + format if anyone is interested.

The first link is for set-top players, the second is for PC Drives..

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/c..._dvdvideo.html

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/c...st_dvdrom.html

... and here is a FAQ explaining why the + format is the one we should all be using. Yes, it comes from a + site, so of course it's pro +, but is there evidence that what they are saying is false?

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/faq/faq_general.html

Eug · 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Wet Jimmy:
Here's a compatibility list for the + format if anyone is interested.

The first link is for set-top players, the second is for PC Drives..

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/c..._dvdvideo.html

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/c...st_dvdrom.html

... and here is a FAQ explaining why the + format is the one we should all be using. Yes, it comes from a + site, so of course it's pro +, but is there evidence that what they are saying is false?

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/faq/faq_general.html

www.dvdplusrw.org is actually a + fan site, and is not run by the +RW people. There are things there that are misleading and some things that are downright wrong. I wouldn't rely on it for real information.

If you go to www.dv-info.net forums you'll get a biased pro DVD-RW/-R/-RAM site. I find them a little more reasonable, but biased as well as course.

If you read both, and then go to vcdhelp.com for some more information, you'll get a more balanced view.

I should point out though, that if you're buying it for use with Macs, a - recorder is preferred. + hardware works, but is not as well supported as on the PC side. For PC users I always say just get whatever you feel you need, but on the Mac side it makes more sense to go -.

oreixa · Jan 30, 2003, 04:58 PM

does anybody tried the sony DRX500UL dvr-r and dvd+r model? It's compatible with dvd studio pro?

many thanks

best regards

tr · Jan 30, 2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by oreixa:
does anybody tried the sony DRX500UL dvr-r and dvd+r model? It's compatible with dvd studio pro?

many thanks

best regards

try out the drive database at xlr8yourmac

http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/drived....drivedb.lasso

tr

vmpaul · Feb 2, 2003, 09:46 AM

What a mess. Will this ever get straightened out?

Doesn't seem like there is a 800-pound gorilla who could actually set the standard.

I used to think that when DVD recording for TV came along that would set the standard because everyone would eventually ditch their VHS players and go to DVD recorders. And then the computer makers would have to follow with compatibility. Now I'm not so sure.

It seems like DVR's are going to slow the acceptance of DVD recorders. Here's a Salon article that mentions that as well.

Why DVD recorders won't last

Not sure if I totally agree but he makes interesting points.

Wet Jimmy · Feb 2, 2003, 05:59 PM

And to make matters of standards and compatibility even more of an issue, here comes Blue-Ray!

I think we should have stuck with 8-Trac.

tr · Feb 2, 2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by vmpaul:

It seems like DVR's are going to slow the acceptance of DVD recorders. Here's a Salon article that mentions that as well.

Why DVD recorders won't last

Not sure if I totally agree but he makes interesting points.

i'm not so sure about that salon article and the author's views. first, it's absurd to compare recordable DVD's to the "short" life spans of the floppy and the minidisc. the thing is, floppies and MD's are still used.

The self-burned DVD still has a few years of glory left, and they're perfect for backing up the files on your computer. But if you're on a tight budget, and all you really want to do is swap video files with your friends, keep in mind that you likely won't need a DVD burner to share 2005's Man vs. Beast IV: Final Confrontation.

so basically, he's saying in the near future (like in 2 years), we should be able to swap large video files without needing to burn to media? highly unlikely. i think people have to remember that not everyone has broadband, or have home networks set up. and even if people did, what kind of compression does this video have (if any)? even with broadband, it's still a pain in the ass to share video files simply because they can get huge.

i think DVD recording will be around for some time, hell, it's really still in it's infancy. one thing that the author of the salon article seems to forget: how would one archive all those video files that we have? on DVD, of course. personally, i think we'll see more affordable DVR/DVD recorder combos before swapping videos with friends over broadband becomes the norm.

tr