[l008com]

I have many questions. First question is, what is the native RESOLUTION of regular old TV? (oh yeah, talking USA BTW). And what is the native res of HDTV?
Now are there any HDTV tuners out there for Mac, or only regular TV? What about PCI? I used a performac 6000 series once that had a tv tuner, but the res it displayed was very low, even in full screen it was a low res image magnified, not a hi res image. What about OS 9/OS X compatability?

[MikeD]

Originally posted by l008com:
I have many questions. First question is, what is the native RESOLUTION of regular old TV? (oh yeah, talking USA BTW). And what is the native res of HDTV?
Now are there any HDTV tuners out there for Mac, or only regular TV? What about PCI? I used a performac 6000 series once that had a tv tuner, but the res it displayed was very low, even in full screen it was a low res image magnified, not a hi res image. What about OS 9/OS X compatability?

The only TV tuner I know if is the EyeTV. And that's not even full resolution. I think regular tv is about 640x480.. Not sure what HDTV is though (it's close to apple cinema display HD though I remember once looking it up - not sure off the top of my head). I know for PC's, there is an HDTV tuner that's PCI based but for the mac, not sure.. I'd love to have one though since I have a HD display hooked up to my PM.

Check out this article fromTechTV. I couldn't find out of these cards were mac compatible though..

TechTV Article

Hope this helps somewhat.. I'm a bit interested too if you find something else...

Let us all know!

Mike

[G4ME]

formactv firewire thing does a better job of grabbing tv, but is cost 400 bucks

do a search on that

[GORDYmac]

Standards Comparison Table: NTSC vs. HDTV (ATSC)
total lines: 525 vs. 1125
active lines: 486 vs. 1080
sound: 2 channels (stereo) vs. 5.1 channels (surround)
aspect ratio: 4 x 3 vs. 16 x 9
max resolution: 720 x 486 vs. 1920 x 1080

As said, EyeTV is one option--arguably the best option if you want a PVR--at 320 x 252 resolution. If you don't need a decent PVR package (and have a huge hard drive), then the Formac Studio is another option. Both only recognize standard TV signals, not HDTV. Both are OS X only. No PCI cards yet.

[MaxPower2k3]

while the previous poster was true in that 1920x1080 is the highest current HDTV standard, that is not the only resolution. 1920x1080, or 1080i, is interlaced. the other major HDTV resolution, 1280x720, or 720p, is progressive scan. I dont want to get into a whole discussion about what they are and all, but basically (and this is an oversimplification) interlaced is 30 frames per second and progressive is 60fps. Now, the real debate is which resolution is better. While 1080i is a higher resolution, 720p is smoother because of the higher framerate. I think that they both have uses. 720p is much better for sports and other fast-moving subjects, because of the higher framerate. 1080i is better for other shows because you can see more small details. in addition, you can also have regular TV resolution (720x480) but in Progressive scan, or 480p. This still makes it look considerably better, but it does not compete with 1080i or 720p.

but i digress...

i dont know of an HDTV computer tuner, but i can say that whats probably holding them back is the bandwidth required for this video. Stored shows would be far too large for most people, and the compression required to make them small enough would also make them nearly unwathable. The other limitation is the fact that there simply isnt enough HDTV programming yet to warrant the development of new products.

[l008com]

And what of 4:3 HDTV's? They simply chop the sides off of whatever broadcast your watching?

What about a PCI video input card? Something with like 3 sets of inputs, that would let use use and external HDTV Tuner, or a regular VCR and patch it right into the computer?

[MaxPower2k3]

4:3 HDTV sets display HDTV in letterbox format (black bars on the top and bottom)

if you were to use just an input and use an external tuner, that would be possible, but the input box would need component in. No other consumer cables support HDTV. Also, several set-top HDTV tuners have DVI output on them, which means you could use them with an Apple display with a DVI > ADC converter, but that does nothing for recording onto the hard drive or whatnot.

[l008com]

So that means with a 4:3, you are losing a TON of lines of resolution right? you only get about 1/2 the TVs vertical resolution for your image?

So are there any PCI Video Input cards out there, for mac?

[spacepower]

Originally posted by MaxPower2k3:
while the previous poster was true in that 1920x1080 is the highest current HDTV standard, that is not the only resolution. 1920x1080, or 1080i, is interlaced. the other major HDTV resolution, 1280x720, or 720p, is progressive scan. I dont want to get into a whole discussion about what they are and all, but basically (and this is an oversimplification) interlaced is 30 frames per second and progressive is 60fps. Now, the real debate is which resolution is better. While 1080i is a higher resolution, 720p is smoother because of the higher framerate. I think that they both have uses. 720p is much better for sports and other fast-moving subjects, because of the higher framerate. 1080i is better for other shows because you can see more small details. in addition, you can also have regular TV resolution (720x480) but in Progressive scan, or 480p. This still makes it look considerably better, but it does not compete with 1080i or 720p.

but i digress...

i dont know of an HDTV computer tuner, but i can say that whats probably holding them back is the bandwidth required for this video. Stored shows would be far too large for most people, and the compression required to make them small enough would also make them nearly unwathable. The other limitation is the fact that there simply isnt enough HDTV programming yet to warrant the development of new products.

All broadcast HDTV is compressed!!
Viewers are not watching the 110+MB/second that the Sony cinalta cameras record. The sony cam can record 60 progessive frames per second at 1080 but i have yet to see any TV that supports that format. That mode is mainly use for slow motion.
Panasonics Varicam HD camera records 720p30/29.97/25/24to tape USING 6.7:1 compression. The Panasonic HD signal is rated at 100Mb/second, small enought for firewire 400. The HD-VHS type format is compressed down to about 20Mb/second, alittle more than double DVD


HDTV 1080i VS 720p

720p is better for things that originate on film. 720p is 30 or 29.97 progressive frames per second

1080i is 59.94 interlaced fields per second. 2 fields make up one frame. So 1080i is much better for sports and is the format used for NFL etc... because is have a faster rate and can record motion more smoothly.

Back to the original question

I saw something on www.xlr8yourmac.com a couple months ago that talk about a company in Japan making a HD tuner on PCI card for about $250.
I am not sure if it is mac compatible yet though.

Peace

[MaxPower2k3]

i realize that all HDTV is compressed, as it must be to fit in the relatively narrow range of wavelengths set aside for broadcast. What I am saying is that for computer applications, it would have to be compressed to the point that artifacts are noticable, because even at the 20mb/sec of HD-VHS, a 30 minute show would take about 36 gigs of hard drive space, hardly convenient even with today's large hard drives.

i also disagree with your other comment on 720p vs. 1080i.

with any progressive scan source, a full frame of video is displayed every 60th of a second, for 60 frames per second. With an interlaced source, only half (every other line) of the frame is displayed every 60th of a second. The other half is displayed in the next 60th of a second, effectively making 30 frames per second.

[l008com]

Originally posted by MaxPower2k3:
i realize that all HDTV is compressed, as it must be to fit in the relatively narrow range of wavelengths set aside for broadcast. What I am saying is that for computer applications, it would have to be compressed to the point that artifacts are noticable, because even at the 20mb/sec of HD-VHS, a 30 minute show would take about 36 gigs of hard drive space, hardly convenient even with today's large hard drives.

Let me just say that the general Idea of this post is not making my own TiVo, but rather me making my own LCD TV, which may or may not be HD, and would display TV, a Signal from my PS2, and a signal from my computer (svideo). If anyone has a link to an HDTV PCI card, of any platform, i'd like to check it out. I simply don't have the room for a big CRT tv and I don't have the money for the ridiculously overpriced LCD-TVs

[Weezer]

They definitely exist, I saw them do a story on them during The Screensavers on TechTV. They reviewed like 3 of them, if I recall they were all kinda crappy.

[l008com]

What about the media for HDTV? What kind of connectors do HDTV tuners use to connect to HDTV Ready TV's? Could I use one of those tuners and use a regular Video In Card? Or an HDTV Video In Card (i.e. not a tuner)? What about a firewire box, like something with an HDTV input, and a few composite inputs, the type of thing I could run everything into, then have it simply display the choosen input video to the screen. And what about widescreen? I know on PS2 I can set it to widescreen and everntyhing gets squished, like it gets the bigger image and just squeezes it in the normal screen. So if I wanted to play PS2 on such a computer/tv setup, how would I get it to actually display the image wide as it should?

[motti]

Have you seen the new Televio PCI-Tuner from Meilenstein? See it here, it has received good reviews:
www.meilenstein.de

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally posted by l008com:
What about the media for HDTV? What kind of connectors do HDTV tuners use to connect to HDTV Ready TV's? Could I use one of those tuners and use a regular Video In Card? Or an HDTV Video In Card (i.e. not a tuner)? What about a firewire box, like something with an HDTV input, and a few composite inputs, the type of thing I could run everything into, then have it simply display the choosen input video to the screen. And what about widescreen? I know on PS2 I can set it to widescreen and everntyhing gets squished, like it gets the bigger image and just squeezes it in the normal screen. So if I wanted to play PS2 on such a computer/tv setup, how would I get it to actually display the image wide as it should?

It depends on the tuner box. Some use the DVI interface, which would make it easy to connect to a monitor (though you would sacrafice the use of the computer), but these also carry an HDCP (i believe that's the acronym) signal for copy protection. This might make it incompatable with displays not designed to recieve this signal. The other option is Component video (one wire each for red, green, and blue). For this, you will need an input card that has component connectors (most likely an external box, as fitting all of these on a card would be challenging). I havent seen one of these, but i can take a look.

[l008com]

What about FireWire? I've been thinking and I think a FireWire Tuner hooked up to an old iMac motherboard would be my best bet here. What are options for firewire devices, both SDTV and HDTV? I know ForMac makes a $400 Firewire DV Encoder that also has a TV tuner, thats cool becuase I could use that both ways. What about other choices, FireWIre TV Tuners that don't have DV Encoders? And are there any FireWire HDTV Tuners? Also, When it comes to hooking up external monitors to G3 iMac motherboard, I'm wondering what happens with wide screen LCDs??? The Max Resolution of the video card in these is 1600*1200, but what if you have a wide screen? Will that work?

[nerd]

i also disagree with your other comment on 720p vs. 1080i.

with any progressive scan source, a full frame of video is displayed every 60th of a second, for 60 frames per second. With an interlaced source, only half (every other line) of the frame is displayed every 60th of a second. The other half is displayed in the next 60th of a second, effectively making 30 frames per second.

While ATSC has the standard for 720p 60 Fps I have never head of it used by the major networks. Also, not all progressive formats (720p, assuming were still taking about HDTV) use 60 Fps. The current formats for 720p are 23.976/24 Fps, 29.97/30 Fps and 59.95/60 Fps.

This years Super Bowl is a perfect example of this. ABC uses 720p at 29.97/30 Fps. I could tell that they were using progressive at 30Fps because on fast camera pans I could see the jitter from the lower frame based format. If they were using 720P at 60Fps or 1080I at 29.97/30 Fps then the fast camera movement would have been a lot smoother.

The point I am trying to make is I haven't heard of any of the networks using 60 Fps. Because of this I have never personally been able to say that 720p 60Fps "looks better". I simpley haven't seen it. I also can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i unless there is fast motion.

Brad

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally posted by nerd:
While ATSC has the standard for 720p 60 Fps I have never head of it used by the major networks. Also, not all progressive formats (720p, assuming were still taking about HDTV) use 60 Fps. The current formats for 720p are 23.976/24 Fps, 29.97/30 Fps and 59.95/60 Fps.

This years Super Bowl is a perfect example of this. ABC uses 720p at 29.97/30 Fps. I could tell that they were using progressive at 30Fps because on fast camera pans I could see the jitter from the lower frame based format. If they were using 720P at 60Fps or 1080I at 29.97/30 Fps then the fast camera movement would have been a lot smoother.

The point I am trying to make is I haven't heard of any of the networks using 60 Fps. Because of this I have never personally been able to say that 720p 60Fps "looks better". I simpley haven't seen it. I also can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i unless there is fast motion.

Brad

my dad works at ABC and i just confirmed with him that the super bowl was broadcast in 60fps progressive, not 30. A large portion of the non-plasma HDTVs, however, upconvert all sources to 1080i, which would mean that even on a 720p picture it would look like 30fps. unless you have a plasma tv, your's most likely does this.

to l008com: i havent seen any HDTV tuners, internal or external, yet. If i see one or hear news on one, though, ill be sure to post it here.

[l008com]

Does anyone have the link to that project, the one that lets you use PC TV PCI cards on OS X? I had a link the other day but I can't remember for the life of me where it came from?? How far along is that project (called AppleBt8xx or something right?) I know I clicked a link to what I think was a whole app.