[brainchild2b]

As far as I'm concerned somebody at Apple should be thrown off the roof.

1. Everything is easier with a two button mouse. If you have a one button mouse you barely have a clue what I'm talking about. The idea that I have to run one hand to the keyboard for every little thing is annoying.

2. Scroll wheel = good. I can't believe some people actually don't have them. I had to use an "apple pro mouse" (laughable at best) the other day. Let's just say I ended up throwing it across the room.

3. That whole "ease of use" thing is a load of crap! Every Windows users on the planet uses a two button mouse. My mom knows how to right click. Maybe that was a selling point in '89 but it's just stupid by today's standards.

4. Windows users still rag on the "mac toy" mouse and rightfully so. Who wants to switch to a platform that has a toy for a mouse? After all a real switcher has had a nice scrollwheel, and two buttons for multiple functions. What's the advantage to switching in the mouse department? It's just a downgrade :-(

5. Apple should have at least offered from their order form directly to bundle a two button mouse/w scrollwheel. If not one they designed than partner with another company and sell theirs. Apple ignoring us on this issue is retarded. Not giving a user choices out of the box is retarded.

6. There is no reason to continue to isolate mac customers by offering them crap solutions.

We the people who FUND Apple demand a better mouse!

[Maquero]

you can always get one from microsoft,logitech etc ,and they work perfectly in os x,so I dont see this as a big issue

[rstevens]

yeah, don't donate it to a person with a broken mouse.

SMASH IT.

we need more trash and less adult solutions!

[LightWaver-67]

I half-agree with you...

Yes, there are LOTS of reasons that people would want more functionality and options from their input device... but I "think" Apple's perspective is: There are DOZENS upon DOZENS of third-party hardware suppliers that offer Mice & trackballs of ALL shapes, sizes, colors and multi-button functionality.

Apple will NEVER create a mouse that will please EVERYONE... as soon as they add a second button, someone will say "Well, why didn't you add a scroll-wheel...?"... if they do that... "Well, why can't I have a 4-button optical w/ scroll wheel on the SIDE, not on-top...?".

There are as many different personal preferrences as there are 3rd-party mice and I think Apple knows this, so go for reliable simplicity and let the users buy a more appropriate input device that suits their needs from a 3rd-party manufacturer.

I happen to use my Wacom 4D mouse w/ scroll wheel.

[brainchild2b]

I have a third party mouse.

Apple needs to create a solution that will appeal to a Majority of everyone. More people would prefer a two button mouse than a one button mouse.

Apple can please everyone, just offer either or when purchasing from their website.

Or get with the program and offer a real normal mouse.

I can get a third party anything. Maybe we should start shipping slower hard drives, or slower CD Burns, perhapes we should cripple your DVD drive? You could buy one third party right? How about your graphics card? Apple is know for having the best solutions, the very best. They revel in this image. Yet their keyboard and mouse suck.

[Scotttheking]

I have a 4 button + scroll mouse, and I use it.
My mom hates it, and wants the 1 button mouse back.
My brother has a 2+scroll.
My sister loves her 1 button and won't take anything else.
My dad has a 2 button mouse and can't work the second button other then to get annoyed when the contextual menu pops up.
It would be nice if Apple made an option for a 2+scroll mouse, but it probably won't happen.
Personally, I don't use a mouse most of the time. Command line power!

This goes to periphs

[LightWaver-67]

The flaw in your logic is the word "Best".

In your other examples... "Best" can easily be quantifiable by benchmarks and results.

In the matter of input devices... "Best" is entirely a subjective opinion. Not "everyone" wants a 2-button mouse... heck, some can't function without at-least THREE buttons and a scroll-wheel... some think that the "Best" solution is to use a track-ball... I used my one-button Apple mouse for over 2-years before it died and I switched to my Wacom 4D.

I had absolutely no problem using the one-button offering from Apple... and I know I'm not alone. So, again... why would Apple try to draw a line in the sand on an infinite beach...?

Like I said... if they start to ship a 2-button mouse... some will complain they didn't take it far enough... some will say they screwed-up it's simplicity and they shoulda left it alone.

Ultimately... they will NEVER offer a mouse that pleases even 10% of their users fully... but I bet you can find EXACTLY what you're looking for to suit YOUR needs online or in a catalog. It's not worth their time & efforts to compete against that.

( just my 2-cents )

[The Godfather]

Everybody will want different numbers of mouse buttons.

For me, the sweet spot is two buttons+one scroll wheel

But I have a trouble with Apple calling their mouse a PRO mouse. There's nothing PRO about it.

Maybe it should be called Apple CON Mouse, etc.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by The Godfather:
But I have a trouble with Apple calling their mouse a PRO mouse. There's nothing PRO about it.

It's certainly the best mouse I've ever used WRT ergonomics. My hand doesn't miss my MS Intellimouse at all.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Funny thing is his user name is "brainchild2b". Ya no ****.

[starman]

I hate the Apple Mouse. Ok, so I'm sure they have qualitative data stating that a one-button mouse is better for the grandparents of the world that can't understand "left-click". However, I can't live without my Intellimouse.

Mike

[donutogre]

i could really care less what apple ships with their computers, but on the laptop end...you're stuck with that shitty one button. how hard would it be to draw a line down the middle and make it a 2 button mouse??? obviously i can plug one in, which i do, but on the road when i just take my computer its a pain.

[billybob128]

I can get a third party anything. Maybe we should start shipping slower hard drives, or slower CD Burns, perhapes we should cripple your DVD drive? You could buy one third party right? How about your graphics card? Apple is know for having the best solutions, the very best. They revel in this image. Yet their keyboard and mouse suck.

there is one HELL of a differance between computer performances like those you state and a shitty little extra like a mouse

for startes a third party mouse aint gonna cost more than £60 and if you pay more for one you are stupid!
however a third party dvd you are talkin more like £500

by your logic apple should just sell a case then let the consumer put watever they want into it

[Gorby]

Couldn't agree more. Thought the Apple mouse was cool until I used it. Lack of right click and got wrist pains quite quickly. Swapped for my Windows PC mouse and pains went, productivity back to normal and happiness.

Yep, 2 buttons and scroll wheel, essential.

[misc]

Who uses a Mouse?

Seriously, if I could I would use the keyboard for everything. Sometimes the mouse is faster though. I do agree that the Mac mice aren't that good, but since I don't use it that much I don't need to spend the money on a better one.

[euphras]

Quote: "Who uses a Mouse?"

Sorry Misc. that´s just plain silly! Doing graphics without a mouse (a good one, means 2 button scrollwheel)? Sorry, i don´t get the point.

And Brainchild is right: there should be the option (at least built to order) for a real Pro mouse O U T O F T H E B O X !!
I think it p*sses of people that they´re forced to sell their brand new mouse on ebay for often less money than Apple asks for it and have to buy a new one just to get the work done. Honestly: I cannot imagine to work w/o a sroll whell. Hell when i´m sitting in front of my old PPC 6100 i find myself searching (like a reflex) for a scroll wheel...

And since this is not directly related to peripherals but a general discussion of the "look and feel" of using a Mac;

Mod´s please move it to the lounge!

[fetopher]

I've never actually unpacked the Apple Pro Mouse. I just buy the Microsoft Intellimouse everytime I get a new computer. Oh wait, I did unwarp one. I hung it from my wall. It looks kinda cool and artsy. My PC friends say that's about all Apple is good for. Looking good on a shelf, but no functional use. A few of them refuse to switch, citing the mouse as proof that Apple is too simple or dumbed down for a real computer user. Oh well, I'm happy with the MS mouse. Now, if only Apple would make the laptops with two buttons. That would be great.

[TAZ]

I think Apple shoud do away with the mouse all together. It was great in the 80's and acceptable in the 90's, but it has become very blazee in 00's. They should ship every computer with a wireless/bluetooth trackball. I have never likes mice, even though I use one 8 hrs/day. Dont like having to move my hand around, running off the mouse pad... all that carp. My trackball at home is the best solution. You can sit still and get comfy and get work done

[xtal]

Originally posted by TAZ:
but it has become very blazee in 00's.

I'm sorry, but I must do this. The word you're looking for is blasé.

I use a two button + scroll attached to my iBook, but I switch back to the one button + trackpad quite often. I don't usually miss the extra button and scroll wheel. I don't think anyone needs a scroll wheel and second button, but for some the preference is as such.

[KP*]

I'm a switcher, so you know I miss my two-button mouse with scroll wheel, but I'm currently using the Pro Mouse (with PowerMate) for one reason: it just looks and feels so nice! This is why buying a third-party mouse is not a perfect solution. Who do you know besides Apple that can make hardware so damn sexy? I own two other mice, but there's something so solid and high-quality about the Pro Mouse, anything else that tries to look pretty just feels cheap. For me the ideal solution would be for Apple themselves to introduce a two-button mouse with scrollwheel, because it would be done with style and quality.

The other thing is laptops -- in a few years I'll be looking for a Powerbook, and I don't think a "portable" computer should require dragging an external mouse around. I know I could use keyboard shortcuts for most things, but there are some apps and games that really require two buttons.

[DBursey]

[misc]

Originally posted by euphras:
Sorry Misc. that´s just plain silly! Doing graphics without a mouse (a good one, means 2 button scrollwheel)? Sorry, i don´t get the point.

When I do graphic work I usually use my Wacom tablet. Plus I don't see any need for more then a one button mouse, you can use key combo's and stuff. But yeah, I def. use a mouse for image/video/audio work.

[LightWaver-67]

Originally posted by DBursey:

Well... I'm halfway there... I use my ShuttlePro for FCP3 and other non-linear editing work. Nice little unit, BUT it is not an input device per-se. It cannot replace a mouse because it does not control the cursor... but yes, the buttons are extremely configurable.

[geekwagon]

Originally posted by TAZ:
I think Apple shoud do away with the mouse all together. It was great in the 80's and acceptable in the 90's, but it has become very blazee in 00's. They should ship every computer with a wireless/bluetooth trackball. I have never likes mice, even though I use one 8 hrs/day. Dont like having to move my hand around, running off the mouse pad... all that carp. My trackball at home is the best solution. You can sit still and get comfy and get work done

Lots of people, including myself, can't stand trackballs. They cause my wrist to cramp up horribly in extended usage. Much worse than a mouse (which is bad enough.)

[cpac]

(1) There are still plenty of people who prefer the simplicity of a single button mouse (and yes, there are still people out there who are new to computers and would be confused as hell with two buttons)

(2) There are LOTS of 3d party solutions out there (I use a Logitech travelman pro with 2 buttons, and a scrollwheel/button)

(3) Apple *could* kill much of the market for the 3d party mice by providing their own - but this would be a bad idea as variety is a good thing.

(4) Shipping with more than a 1 button mouse would allow/encourage developers to write programs that *require* the additional button to be used rather than forcing the extra thought/distillation required to make the program functional for single button mice.

[KP*]

Originally posted by cpac:
(4) Shipping with more than a 1 button mouse would allow/encourage developers to write programs that *require* the additional button to be used rather than forcing the extra thought/distillation required to make the program functional for single button mice.

That's an interesting point, but most of the programs I use do require control-clicking to bring up menus to accomplish certain things, so I'd say we're already at that stage. I don't know that many programs for PC that make more extensive use of the right mouse than those on Mac. The interface is pretty similar as far as I can tell.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by KP*:
most of the programs I use do require control-clicking to bring up menus to accomplish certain things

Seriously? Which programs? I'm curious.

[LightWaver-67]

Originally posted by lavar78:
Seriously? Which programs? I'm curious.

Photoshop... in a MAJOR way...

Sure, you CAN do it all by menus and switching tools, but the combination of knowing the key-strokes for certain tools and using the contextual menus make me a MUCH faster and efficient designer.

Other apps... Dramweaver... not sure how-many more that I HEAVILY rely on CMs... but those two are HUGE for me.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
Sure, you CAN do it all by menus and switching tools, but the combination of knowing the key-strokes for certain tools and using the contextual menus make me a MUCH faster and efficient designer.

Sure, but the contextual menus still aren't required. cpac's point still stands that including a two-button mouse may (and probably would) encourage developers to make the use of contextual menus mandatory instead of optional. The only mandatory use I've come across so far is the Finder's "Show Package Contents" command.

[LightWaver-67]

Originally posted by lavar78:
Sure, but the contextual menus still aren't required. cpac's point still stands that including a two-button mouse may (and probably would) encourage developers to make the use of contextual menus mandatory instead of optional. The only mandatory use I've come across so far is the Finder's "Show Package Contents" command.

I guess I may have mis-interpreted his point... you may be right. I assumed he meant that it was necessary from an ease-of-use... not "this is the only way to access" view.

Either way... the point still stands... Apple made it clear a few years ago that they wanted to offer a quality set of input devices (mouse & keyboard) without hurting (pissing-off) third-party vendors that help feed the Mac market.

I guess I'm leaning towards the "Buy your perfect idea of an input device from whichever 3rd-party vendor that offers it" mentality. I see no need to presume Apple needs to change it's offering for a percentage of people that feel it's imperative to do so.

To each... our own...

[nonhuman]

Seems to me like a good way for Apple to do it would be to just give you the option when configuring your computer to choose from a variety of third party mice. Or, at least, to just make it more obvious that there are other mice available at the Apple Store (on and offline).

[lavar78]

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
I guess I'm leaning towards the "Buy your perfect idea of an input device from whichever 3rd-party vendor that offers it" mentality.

Agreed.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Seems to me like a good way for Apple to do it would be to just give you the option when configuring your computer to choose from a variety of third party mice. Or, at least, to just make it more obvious that there are other mice available at the Apple Store (on and offline).

[cpac]

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
I guess I may have mis-interpreted his point... you may be right. I assumed he meant that it was necessary from an ease-of-use... not "this is the only way to access" view.

I meant it as both actually:

Most importantly having a 1 button mouse as the default makes *sure* developers will write programs where every feature *can* be accessed via menus, and the like.

BUT it also has the added effect of forcing those developers to think what might be efficient for a single-button mouse user - AND THIS IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE. If a developer writes a program that allows efficiency with a single button, the second (and third or 10th if you've got 'em) button retains its "shortcut" ability rather than merely becoming one of two equally necessary mouse buttons.

w/r/t how apple should supply things - maybe apple should stop bundling mice/keyboards with the pro machines - as a BTO option. (can you see it in the apple store? choose a graphics card, hard drive size, ram amount and input device(s))

[DaedalusDX]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Seems to me like a good way for Apple to do it would be to just give you the option when configuring your computer to choose from a variety of third party mice. Or, at least, to just make it more obvious that there are other mice available at the Apple Store (on and offline).

That would be quite optimal... except for the minor annoyance that the pro mouse would have to be bundled outside of the box with the rest of the computer. I think the problem is that Apple's web store has evolved into something different from say Dell's webstore... Apple would more like to sell you a package than let you customize every detail of it on the web site... So you can't change things like the mouse that comes with it or the keyboard, etc...


Personally, the whole mouse thing doesn't get to me. I can definitely see the fuss with Apple's portables, but with my desktop, no mouse that ships with a PC would be sufficient for me. Right now I am using the ridiculously outrageous Kensington Turbo Mouse Pro... with 4 big buttons, one huge track ball... scroll wheel, and 6 "quick launch" buttons on top... count em up... total of 11 buttons. That's what i'm talking about

[KP*]

Originally posted by lavar78:
Seriously? Which programs? I'm curious.

I should have been more specific, I guess. I was referring to the "ease-of-use" situation, not that there's no way but right-clicking. For example, having to control-click or command-click in a browser to open a link in a new window or tab -- something I do constantly.

In the finder, using the "get info" screen is something else that bugs me. Sure I could also do command-I, but either way it sends me to the keyboard.

[iDaver]

First I'll say "to each his own." If you like two buttons and a scroll wheel, get a mouse that has them. As for Apple offering a build-to-order choice...it's a bad idea.

Personally, I don't want to have to think what I could do if I could use a right or left button instead of the only button. The only button gets it done just fine, thank you.

To those who complain about having to "go to the keyboard" to get something done. I say "using the keyboard is usually easier than using the mouse!" I work with a guy who always reaches to click an OK button on screen with his mouse when he could just hit return or enter on the keyboard. Which is easier, for pete's sake? It takes a fraction of the time to hit the keyboard!

I don't buy the argument that having two mouse buttons makes things easier but respect you if you find that it does.

...just one more vote for the one-button mouse.

[DrBoar]

The horrible hocky puck that came with the G4/400 forced me to get a new mouse. Bought a MS optical with 4 buttons and a weel. Fell in love an bought a Logitec optical 2 button scroll well for the 7300/200 at work.

Yes I now some people that have learned to accept the puck and other apple mice. They still open folders by clicking in one layer after the other filling their screen with window clutter. The never have heard about putting files or application in the Apple menue and they run the 8.5 that the computer came with.

1. A dual button mouse is absolutly needed for many games. Having to stand still in UT for altenrate fire, change weapon etc is a bad...
2. Scrolling with the weel is very useful
3. The right klick features is just icing on the cake

A dual button scroll weel mouse is a smallest common denominator for a mouse.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
As far as I'm concerned somebody at Apple should be thrown off the roof.

1. Everything is easier with a two button mouse. If you have a one button mouse you barely have a clue what I'm talking about. The idea that I have to run one hand to the keyboard for every little thing is annoying.

2. Scroll wheel = good. I can't believe some people actually don't have them. I had to use an "apple pro mouse" (laughable at best) the other day. Let's just say I ended up throwing it across the room.

3. That whole "ease of use" thing is a load of crap! Every Windows users on the planet uses a two button mouse. My mom knows how to right click. Maybe that was a selling point in '89 but it's just stupid by today's standards.

4. Windows users still rag on the "mac toy" mouse and rightfully so. Who wants to switch to a platform that has a toy for a mouse? After all a real switcher has had a nice scrollwheel, and two buttons for multiple functions. What's the advantage to switching in the mouse department? It's just a downgrade :-(

5. Apple should have at least offered from their order form directly to bundle a two button mouse/w scrollwheel. If not one they designed than partner with another company and sell theirs. Apple ignoring us on this issue is retarded. Not giving a user choices out of the box is retarded.

6. There is no reason to continue to isolate mac customers by offering them crap solutions.

We the people who FUND Apple demand a better mouse!

Idiocy.

I got a ProMouse for all apps and a Logitech for games (you need that scrollwheel to change weapons quickly!).

If you want two buttons, get a mouse with two buttons. If you want one with three plus scrollwheel, you can get that, too. AFAIK every single USB mouse works (I have used four different ones + Apple's ProMouse).

So don't be childish and destroy that nice mouse, give it to someone that might need one, sell it, whatever. Get a multibutton mouse. If you need advice on what kind of mouse you should get, do a search in this forum.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by iDaver:
To those who complain about having to "go to the keyboard" to get something done. I say "using the keyboard is usually easier than using the mouse!" I work with a guy who always reaches to click an OK button on screen with his mouse when he could just hit return or enter on the keyboard. Which is easier, for pete's sake? It takes a fraction of the time to hit the keyboard!

I think this is an important difference in philosophy that doesn't come up enough in this age-old debate. I'm in complete agreement with you. People talk about the scroll wheel, but I would much rather use the spacebar, the arrow keys, and/or PgUp/PgDn to read long documents. Thanks to LaunchBar, I only use the mouse when I absolutely need it.

[entrox]

Cripes! Am I the only one who switched /to/ the Apple mouse? Before I got my first Mac, I used to use a Logitech trackball. I ditched the Apple mouse at first, but then I tried it out just for kicks ("but it looks /so/ nice..."). You know what? The bugger actually grew on me and I sold the trackball.

Can you believe that? There's a sicko who actually prefers a mouse with a single button and without any gee-whiz scrollwheels.

[KP*]

Originally posted by lavar78:
I think this is an important difference in philosophy that doesn't come up enough in this age-old debate. I'm in complete agreement with you. People talk about the scroll wheel, but I would much rather use the spacebar, the arrow keys, and/or PgUp/PgDn to read long documents. Thanks to LaunchBar, I only use the mouse when I absolutely need it.

I understand the usefulness of keyboards when editing text documents and the like, where your hands have to be on the keyboard already, but do you keyboard-lovers surf web pages tabbing through every link? In some cases, you gotta go to the mouse, and once you're there, it would be more efficient to stay there, I think.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by KP*:
In some cases, you gotta go to the mouse, and once you're there, it would be more efficient to stay there, I think.

Not for me. I spend a lot of my time online in forums, so my hands are still on the keyboard. I reach over to the mouse, click, and then bring my hand back to the default position.

[billybob128]

We the people who FUND Apple demand a better mouse!

so i as a person of apple that does not wish to have a two button mouse... dont use a generalising line like that till you no that is wat everyone wants!

im been forced to use a windozr with a two button mouse and scroll wheel and can i just say FU*KING HELL it is sh*t the scrool wheel is slow the right button gets in the way and is accidentally pushed when i dont want it to be and it is hurting my hand a hell of a lot more than my pro mouse!!!!

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by entrox:
Cripes! Am I the only one who switched /to/ the Apple mouse? Before I got my first Mac, I used to use a Logitech trackball. I ditched the Apple mouse at first, but then I tried it out just for kicks ("but it looks /so/ nice..."). You know what? The bugger actually grew on me and I sold the trackball.

Can you believe that? There's a sicko who actually prefers a mouse with a single button and without any gee-whiz scrollwheels.

No, I have one that I use for most stuff except for gaming. If it wouldn't be my favorite, I wouldn't have bought one.

[tooki]

I only know of one program that absolutely cannot be operated without a multibutton mouse: Maya.

It demands a 3-button mouse, because it uses all the modifier keys in combination with each button.

Definitely a steep learning curve, but once you're there, you can do cool stuff!

tooki

[misc]

Originally posted by lavar78:
Not for me. I spend a lot of my time online in forums, so my hands are still on the keyboard. I reach over to the mouse, click, and then bring my hand back to the default position.

Same. I really only use the mouse to click links and launch programs.

[LegendaryPinkOx]

I packed my "hockey puck" full of LED's and i still use it cuz its pretty.

[FXWizard]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
As far as I'm concerned somebody at Apple should be thrown off the roof.

1. Everything is easier with a two button mouse. If you have a one button mouse you barely have a clue what I'm talking about. The idea that I have to run one hand to the keyboard for every little thing is annoying.

2. Scroll wheel = good. I can't believe some people actually don't have them. I had to use an "apple pro mouse" (laughable at best) the other day. Let's just say I ended up throwing it across the room.

3. That whole "ease of use" thing is a load of crap! Every Windows users on the planet uses a two button mouse. My mom knows how to right click. Maybe that was a selling point in '89 but it's just stupid by today's standards.

4. Windows users still rag on the "mac toy" mouse and rightfully so. Who wants to switch to a platform that has a toy for a mouse? After all a real switcher has had a nice scrollwheel, and two buttons for multiple functions. What's the advantage to switching in the mouse department? It's just a downgrade :-(

5. Apple should have at least offered from their order form directly to bundle a two button mouse/w scrollwheel. If not one they designed than partner with another company and sell theirs. Apple ignoring us on this issue is retarded. Not giving a user choices out of the box is retarded.

6. There is no reason to continue to isolate mac customers by offering them crap solutions.

We the people who FUND Apple demand a better mouse!

Oh, waah.

Macs have had a single-button mouse since forever; if you haven't learned to accept this (and buy a multi-button mouse if you need one) then there's nothing more to be said.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by misc:
Same. I really only use the mouse to click links and launch programs.

Have you tried LaunchBar yet? It's phenomenal ... I can't say enough good things about it.