[chasg]

Hi All,

Forgive me for starting a new thread on this issue, but I really need some help here and I wanted to maximise visibility of my plight.

As I detailed in this thread, my internal DVD burner (in my G4 desktop) started to turn out coasters. I asked for advice on a new one, and I ended up getting a LaCie d2 firewire 8x burner (future proof, I thought, and a vast improvement on my old Pioneer 2x burner).

Well, I've just burned two DVD-R coasters in a row from the G4 desktop (note: I'm reasonably sure that the drive is not faulty, as I successfully burned a DVD immediately after purchase using my iBook).

Now I'm really concerned that my G4 might be at fault somehow. I'd be willing to reinstall the system (OSX 10.3.2), but there isn't room anywhere to do that!

Can anyone venture a theory as to why this might be happening (I personally have never heard of a hardware/software fault that manifested this way). I'm in quite a panic, as the budget just barely stretched to the purchase of this burner (can't afford a new Mac right now, even if I sold the iBook and the G4).

Help!

Chas

[d4nth3m4n]

this thread is totally useless.

what kinda software are you burning with? is the drive supported? have you run the cron scripts lately (is your comp ever on at 4am?)? disk warrior? permissions? what have you done?

oh yeah. +1 for this retarded thread.

have you thought about asking the software forum about this?

[chasg]

Well, ain't that the most helpful reply I've ever received here at good 'ole MacNN.

Did you even read the post? I'll make it simple for you (and if you can pinpoint it as a software problem, I'd be happy to hear it). I'm in trouble here, and sarcastic comments aren't helping me. I challenge you to shelve the ego and see if you can lend me some assistance.

G4/500 with internal DVD-R drive (Pioneer DVR-104, added last year)
-starts to turn out consistent coasters several days ago
-tried different media (both DVDs and CDs)
-did test burns with data from different hard drives

New, external drive (firewire LaCie d2 with NEC ND2500A) burns coasters on the G4 as well (but burns consistently successfully using iBook). Drive is good.

cron run manually, DiskWarrior no help, permissions done. Next step taken: a new, from scratch, install of 10.3.2, still coasters. Vanilla install of Toast 6 (came with new drive), no go. Still think it's a software problem?

Look, I'm no Mac newbie, I wouldn't come here with a simple problem. This is my development machine, and it's critical. If I can't trust it to burn discs, where else is data being corrupted? I need to narrow down where the fault might be, and if possible, eliminate it from the workflow. Any ideas?

Chas

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by chasg:
Well, ain't that the most helpful reply I've ever received here at good 'ole MacNN.

Did you even read the post? I'll make it simple for you (and if you can pinpoint it as a software problem, I'd be happy to hear it). I'm in trouble here, and sarcastic comments aren't helping me. I challenge you to shelve the ego and see if you can lend me some assistance.

G4/500 with internal DVD-R drive (Pioneer DVR-104, added last year)
-starts to turn out consistent coasters several days ago
-tried different media (both DVDs and CDs)
-did test burns with data from different hard drives

New, external drive (firewire LaCie d2 with NEC ND2500A) burns coasters on the G4 as well (but burns consistently successfully using iBook). Drive is good.

cron run manually, DiskWarrior no help, permissions done. Next step taken: a new, from scratch, install of 10.3.2, still coasters. Vanilla install of Toast 6 (came with new drive), no go. Still think it's a software problem?

Look, I'm no Mac newbie, I wouldn't come here with a simple problem. This is my development machine, and it's critical. If I can't trust it to burn discs, where else is data being corrupted? I need to narrow down where the fault might be, and if possible, eliminate it from the workflow. Any ideas?

Chas

is it the same external burner on the ibook as the g4? have you tried to hook the g4s burner to the ibook?

firmware? how about zapping the pram? i really find it hard to believe that both burners could be toast and its not something with the software/firmware of machine. unless im totally missing something here, it seems way too unlikely. hardware wise, that both of these would crap out on you at the same time. i dont think the firewire and the drive format are even loosely connected.

i still dont understand why you have two threads going about the same thing if you link them together and reply to them at the same time, putting them both at the top simultaneously.

[chasg]

Unfortunately, the burner from the G4 is an internal device, so I can't put it on the iBook (good suggestion though, thanks). I did pull it from the G4 and put it into a blue and white G3, and it burned one coaster, but has since worked ok. So the internal drive is functioning.

The new external burner _hasn't_ crapped out, it only doesn't work on the G4, it works just fine on the iBook. So, the external drive is functioning.

Both burners are ok, it's just when they're used with the G4 that they burn coasters. _That's_ the mystery (I'm about to start removing components in the G4 one by one to see if any of them have gone bad: hard drives, extra cards etc. If it's anything soldered, I'm screwed).

I appreciate the suggestions of zapping, but PRAM has been done, and there are no firmware updates for the drives (not that I'd do them anyway, as they're working ok on other computers). Hmm, your questions did get me thinking though: I haven't tried booting into 9 to see if that eliminates any problems.

As for the dual threads: my fault. I never meant for them to both be active (I felt compelled to address a point in the other one, which brought it back to the top. It should die a quiet death...)

Thanks for the help,

Chas

[chasg]

An update, I wonder if it's relevant?

I've rediscovered my TechTool CD and, when I booted from it and ran TT on my boot drive, all tests were successful, but then weirdness happened: a System Failure screen dump (this didn't happen when I ran TT when logged in to OSX normall). The screen dump looks like it's full of memory addresses (but to be honest, I'm not sure exactly what this text is).

This happened once when the final test was running on my boot drive (the "Volume Structure" test), and once when TT was generating its report (and all of the tests had finished).

Hmm, could it be relevant? (I'd think so, I think I'm going to start pulling RAM modules and see what's what).

Chas

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by chasg:
An update, I wonder if it's relevant?

I've rediscovered my TechTool CD and, when I booted from it and ran TT on my boot drive, all tests were successful, but then weirdness happened: a System Failure screen dump (this didn't happen when I ran TT when logged in to OSX normall). The screen dump looks like it's full of memory addresses (but to be honest, I'm not sure exactly what this text is).

This happened once when the final test was running on my boot drive (the "Volume Structure" test), and once when TT was generating its report (and all of the tests had finished).

Hmm, could it be relevant? (I'd think so, I think I'm going to start pulling RAM modules and see what's what).

Chas

i like the ram idea. i was waiting for an update on this one. what happened when you tried to boot into 9? anything? still on the software bandwagon- how "stock" is your system? do you have any shareware apps on there? i know there was some weird thing with synergy a few months ago that would not let people type a lower-case "a". i know thats a little different but you never know.

[chasg]

Booting into 9 was interesting.

I haven't done that since first installing 10.2, and so really didn't remember how it was set up (certainly it's not a vanilla install, it's the 9.x System I used for ages).

Well, I had to go and find Toast 5 again (I had, and archived to disc, Titanium 5.0.2), and when I did, it gave an error when I tried to burn a DVD (CDs were fine). It seems that Toast 5 has trouble determining how much space there is on a DVD-R (that was the error message). What?? I can say I've never used this burner (the internal one) with OS9, I bought the burner when I was already using Jaguar.

Possible next step would be to install a vanilla OS9 and see what happens then (argh).

I'm going to start taking out RAM modules instead (way easier :-)

My OSX 10.3.2 system is reasonably stock, but the pure vanilla one I then installed (on to another drive) was giving the exact same errors when burning, so I'm convinced it's not the system (hey, I'd _love_ this to be a software problem, but I really don't see how).

Funny you should mention that Synergy issue with the letter "a", my father just bought a used G4/400, and is having real trouble with the letter "y". He's tried two keyboards (the short Apple USB ones that used to come with coloured iMacs), and both have the same problem. Weird, but your mention of Synergy is the first time I've heard of any problem even similar to his. I'm going to tell him to make sure that he's got no third party mods to his System, and see what happens (I've also lent him my extended Apple USB keyboard, to see if the "y" problem happens with it too). Thanks for that.

Ahh, the mysteries of Mac! (the "easy" stuff, like soldering on motherboards, I can do myself :-)

Thanks again for the assistance,

Chas

[chasg]

Well d4nth3m4n, the mystery deepens.

I got scientific:

Step 1: take out every component and leave just enough to boot (I even put in borrowed a boot drive from a fellow G4 user). Got a successful burn (yay!)

Step 2. put things back one at a time, burn at each step. Sometimes successful, sometimes not (unfortunately, and this is the deeper part of the mystery: every time I got a successful burn, I repeated, and more often than not, got a coaster again).

Do you remember Conflict Catcher? (an OS9 extensions manager and trouble shooter). I've been using its philosophy of disabling 1/2 of the component set and testing, to try to work out what is the underlying issue. I'm on burn 18. Arrgh, the problem is not totally random, but I can't figure out a pattern.

Oh, I did determine one thing for sure: my new external burner is malfunctioning, it burns coasters consistently now (on every machine I try it on). So much for using it to solve my G4 problem!!

Chas

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by chasg:
Well d4nth3m4n, the mystery deepens.

I got scientific:

Step 1: take out every component and leave just enough to boot (I even put in borrowed a boot drive from a fellow G4 user). Got a successful burn (yay!)

Step 2. put things back one at a time, burn at each step. Sometimes successful, sometimes not (unfortunately, and this is the deeper part of the mystery: every time I got a successful burn, I repeated, and more often than not, got a coaster again).

Do you remember Conflict Catcher? (an OS9 extensions manager and trouble shooter). I've been using its philosophy of disabling 1/2 of the component set and testing, to try to work out what is the underlying issue. I'm on burn 18. Arrgh, the problem is not totally random, but I can't figure out a pattern.

Oh, I did determine one thing for sure: my new external burner is malfunctioning, it burns coasters consistently now (on every machine I try it on). So much for using it to solve my G4 problem!!

Chas

thanks for the update i was wondering about you. sorry to hear this is becoming a pretty expensive experiment (im not totally sure what 18 dvd coasters costs you, but it cant be that cheap.)

im outta ideas, but im really interested to see what the solution is.

have you been burning from your ibook in the meantime to buy yourself some space? or is that just too much to do?

keep the updates coming, this is getting pretty interesting.

good luck man,
Dan.

[chasg]

Hey Dan,

Well, it's about to get a whole lot more expensive: when the new G5s come out in (supposedly) April, I'm getting me a midrange machine. Enough of this mystery !@£!!.

I've got to now get that external burner replaced (it _did_ work when I got it, but started to get flakey, and now it's hard to even get any Mac to see it on the firewire bus, much less burn from it!). When I do, I'll bear down and start using my LaCie PocketDrive to move data from the G4 to the iBook and burn from there (gotta do _something!).

I've been trying out various files resident on the G4's drives, and there doesn't seem to be any corruption (fingers crossed!). So, I'll keep working on it (no choice really, the iBook doesn't have the horsepower/screen space) until I can get the new machine.

I've had Macs go bad before, but it's usually traceable to software or some hardware component. This G4, well, I must've done something really wrong in a previous life!

Thanks for looking in, and thanks for all of the suggestions. I'll leave this thread to die a quiet death now (unless something interesting happens with that G4 :-)

Cheers!

Chas

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by chasg:
I'll bear down and start using my LaCie PocketDrive to move data from the G4 to the iBook and burn from there (gotta do _something!).

why not use a cat 5 ethernet? 100megabit/s

might be faster.

[chasg]

True, it'd be more convenient, but shouldn't my pocketdrive move data at 400Mb/sec? (I know that's theoretical, but I've never actually measured it).

[chasg]

FYI: that new burner was faulty, as confirmed by the techs at the store. A week of solid testing with a faulty drive, what a waste of time (and discs, lemme tell ya).

The G4 is going to be retired, new G5 on the horizon.

Thanks again for all the help.

Chas

[memyselfandimac]

Originally posted by chasg:
True, it'd be more convenient, but shouldn't my pocketdrive move data at 400Mb/sec? (I know that's theoretical, but I've never actually measured it).

Best way start your iBook in target disc mode(hold T key while starting up)then its just acts just like FW drive, then plug it into G4 and just transfer it with one copy session instead of doing 2 copy sessions, once to pocket drive then to iBook.

FW can carry data at 400Mb, but the drive interface is the limiting factor. probably 17-25Mb sec on a notebook drive if I remember correctly.

[memyselfandimac]

Originally posted by chasg:
FYI: that new burner was faulty, as confirmed by the techs at the store. A week of solid testing with a faulty drive, what a waste of time (and discs, lemme tell ya).

The G4 is going to be retired, new G5 on the horizon.

Thanks again for all the help.

Chas

The new G5 sounds like expensive solution (BUT A NICE ONE ) . Have a Dual 1.8 at printing shop where Iwork and it's sweet.

Did you ever try making a new user, make sure all 3rd party stuff etc was off and try burning, like making sure screen saver is disabled? Make sure your Toast was up to date?
Try another SW like Dragon Burn? Try just burning a Disc Image using just Disk Utility?

This problem at times from your description almost sounds like a Ram, HW or media issue to me. Your mention of memory address messages makes me think fault ram, not bad enough that TTpro would catch but bad enough that would cause problems. Or maybe the cable connecting your drives is bad? That would be a fairly inexpensive thing to try.

You've never stated what media your using with G4 burner, and believe me it does make a difference. A bunch of guys at work have DVD burners at home and guys in my dept use the G5 burners for backing up personal data,etc. Lots where having coaster problems at home and we were having a few at work even with brand new G5's. Some are using PC at home, some Macs, of all varying flavors and brands of drives and computers.

I did some research on web/forums and decided to try Ritek G04 DVD-R brand media, got us a 25 pack ($1.10US ea.) to test, gave a few to everyone there, not one coaster. They even played in some home DVD players that they couldn't get to play movies correctly on before. So on general agreement from everyone we ordered a 200pk ($.92US ea.) and since then out of about probably 100 burns between all of us we've had 2-3 coasters that I know of.

Went through same thing with CD-R a couple years back so had been down this road before and finally ended up with Diamond/TrueSilver CD, which after checking with Firestarter SW also ended up being Ritek and have NEVER written a coaster nor have I ever written a audio CD that couldn't be played in every car or home CD/DVD player I or anybody else who are now using them have tried them in.

Media makes a big difference, so regardless if you get a new computer or not would highly recommend this media.

[chasg]

Hey memyselfandimac, thanks for the reply.

fyi: as part of my testing process, I did a full vanilla install of 10.3.2 (latest at the time) on another hard drive, and a full vanilla install of all relevant apps (including Toast). No joy, coasters and coasters!

I'm more than familiar with the necessity of getting the right media. My first CD burner burned at 1x speed and the discs cost 50 bucks each! We had a machine dedicated to burning, and still got one coaster in 5 (it was totally stripped down, software-wise, but tricked hardware-wise for burning). It was when we moved to matsushita CD-Rs (highest quality, at the time) that our coaster rate went down.

My DVD media of choice is, you guessed it, Ritek 4x (but I get 'em for £1, best price I could fine over here, arrgh!)

BTW: I did test several firewire cables on the G4 (don't forget, the burner worked on my iBook!), and I still think that there is some low-level problem with some element of the G4's hardware (there are other, less critical but still annoying, symptoms that I never mentioned here).

So, G5 it is, if Apple can get their thumb out and release new machines already! <grumble>

Thanks for the suggestions, at least they tell me that my trouble-shooting process has been a logical one.

Chas