[angelmb]

crt: huge res, huge volume
tft: not that high res, nice volume, sleek factor, color accurate?

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by angelmb:
color accurate?

Yes, providing you calibrate properly.

[angelmb]

so, you personally will get the CRT?, but LaCie sells the display calibrator aimed to their crt displays. Does need a tft like a LaCie a calibrator?

[CatOne]

Originally posted by angelmb:
so, you personally will get the CRT?, but LaCie sells the display calibrator aimed to their crt displays. Does need a tft like a LaCie a calibrator?

You can get an LCD calibrator from GretagMacbeth, and use it with the Apple Cinema Displays.

If you want color-accurate work, you must calibrate any display (CRT or LCD).

[aaanorton]

I like (and use for all my work) LCDs. There a a bunch of calibrators out there. Gretag is one (the most expensive one), but they all do the exact same thing. Check out the Spyder from Color Vision.

[tooki]

The fact is, a good calibrated CRT will be better than a calibrated LCD. LCD's still have variation in illumination, viewing angle issues (the viewing angles have been getting wider, but the image you see still varies depending on the viewing angle), and commonly problems in the very light and very dark colors, being washed out to full white or black, respectively.

Now, that said, even an uncalibrated LCD may be sufficient for many people's use. In terms of color accuracy, an uncalibrated CRT will be better, then calibrated LCD, and then a calibrated CRT.

tooki

[angelmb]

OK, thanks for your advice. The worst thing about tft is the relative low res, you buy a 18" 19" tft and you get 1280*1024, seems as you have a computer of great permofance anchored. Said that, LaCie seems a real option. Any other good crts out there?, and please, the most pretty better

[aaanorton]

While LCDs do have some color variations from edge to edge, these variations are basically only measurable. Your eye would never be able to detect it. It is a non-issue. Does your work go to print? If so, you will need to translate colors somewhat anyway, since a print WILL NEVER MATCH A DISPLAY PERFECTLY, EVER.

In terms of color accuracy, an uncalibrated CRT will be better, then calibrated LCD, and then a calibrated CRT.

I don't follow this, tooki. Is this an order of accuracy list?
An uncalibrated display is worthless for color management. It doesn't matter whether it's a CRT or LCD. Though, I would argue that CRTs have a potential for getting further away from accurate than a LCD. I'd also suggest that once calibrated, a LCD will hold it's trueness longer than a CRT.
The LaCie CRTs are excellent. I just got rid of my 22blue recently, but I have no complaints regarding it, other than it being, well... a CRT. I now use all Apple 20 and 23" LCDs and couldn't be happier. My display to print similarity is the best and most consistent I've ever seen. I've been doing some true CMYK press proofs lately and have been utterly amazed with my level of on screen soft-proofing accuracy. As far as resolution goes, I don't see a need for higher res in my Photoshop work. Any higher and things just get smaller with no gain in information.

[tooki]

While LCDs do have some color variations from edge to edge, these variations are basically only measurable. Your eye would never be able to detect it. It is a non-issue. Does your work go to print? If so, you will need to translate colors somewhat anyway, since a print WILL NEVER MATCH A DISPLAY PERFECTLY, EVER.

No, no display will ever match a print. But as for LCD color variations, I most decidedly can detect them with the naked eye (well, not quite naked, since I wear glasses).


I don't follow this, tooki. Is this an order of accuracy list?
An uncalibrated display is worthless for color management. It doesn't matter whether it's a CRT or LCD. Though, I would argue that CRTs have a potential for getting further away from accurate than a LCD. I'd also suggest that once calibrated, a LCD will hold it's trueness longer than a CRT.

I said that an uncalibrated LCD will likely be less accurate than an uncalibrated CRT (this is true even if print matching is not involved: LCDs have trouble with the extreme lights and darks, they have very nonlinear gamma. this is evident even when the final product is destined for on-screen use). Then from there, calibrated LCD is better, and the best color accuracy is from a calibrated CRT.

I stand by this, since the question was about color accuracy, not color matching. Color accuracy is really an issue within the RGB model: how well does a display render the RGB signal it receives? I will argue any day that current LCD technology, while sufficient for most use, is still not at the level of CRT technology.

As for how long they hold true: I probably agree with you there, since CRTs have far more analog components that can drift away from their nominal values. That said, in an LCD, the color temperature of the backlight tubes can change, and of course the panel itself is sensitive to temperature.

I am not saying that the difference between a calibrated LCD and a calibrated CRT is huge. But the fact is that CRTs still have the edge. Many people have decided that LCDs' advantages outweigh the small loss in color accuracy.

tooki

[angelmb]

Originally posted by tooki:

I stand by this, since the question was about color accuracy, not color matching.

Oh, that was my fault tooki, english is not my main language, it is third, so maybe I must have written 'accuracy' and 'matching'

Well, I prefer tft, yeah, they are nicer and so... but how much tft?, I have heard that its life is short, well, at least not as good as a crt. I fear that since is a great investiment.

Thanks again to all for your input, time and advice.

[tooki]

A CRT that is kept turned on (not dimmed, asleep, etc) for 8 hours a day will last about 3 years before getting too dim to use for graphics work.

In an LCD, the LCD panel itself won't wear out, but the backlight tubes can. It's hard to say how long they last, but if the tubes do fail out of warranty, it is possible to replace them (but it's not something a normal user can do -- you have to know electronics).

tooki

[Paul_N]

Originally posted by tooki:
A CRT that is kept turned on (not dimmed, asleep, etc) for 8 hours a day will last about 3 years before getting too dim to use for graphics work.

It's also important to note that CRTs drift in calibration roughly every 2 weeks (some even less). If you go down the CRT route, you'll need to purchase a Spyder or other calibration device in order to get accurate colors. Calibrating once and forget it, doesn't cut it.

Regarding color matching, I've had great success getting accurate prints with a properly profiled printer & monitor. I've also seen some excellent results with Colorbyte's ImagePrint RIP. No profiles, no accuracy.

-Paul

[angelmb]

Anohter important point is the manufacturer warranty, need to check the LaCie one.

[tooki]

LaCie's monitors are great, and should have great warranties.

But keep in mind that if you don't require the blue case, and don't want LaCie's calibration device, then you can get the same displays from Mitsubishi for substantially less money.

The Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2070 is the same as the Electron22Blue IV, the Diamond Pro 930 is the same as the Electron19Blue. I have a Diamond Pro 900u (an ancestor of the 930) that I bought back in 1999 and it's still in perfect shape, better than most el-cheapo 19" displays are brand new.

tooki

[angelmb]

Originally posted by tooki:
LaCie's monitors are great, and should have great warranties.

But keep in mind that if you don't require the blue case, and don't want LaCie's calibration device, then you can get the same displays from Mitsubishi for substantially less money.

The Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2070 is the same as the Electron22Blue IV, the Diamond Pro 930 is the same as the Electron19Blue. I have a Diamond Pro 900u (an ancestor of the 930) that I bought back in 1999 and it's still in perfect shape, better than most el-cheapo 19" displays are brand new.

tooki

Oh, I have no idea about that, do you mean crt, but also tft?

BTW, I see in the mitsubishi site that Nec is under Mitsubishi brand actually, I like Nec monitors a long time ago, the monitors come with the NEC monicker, cool. Where can I get prices to check how much are they worth versus the LaCie models?

Thanks for your time!

[Mac Zealot]

As it stands, most apple displays last about 10,000-15,000 hours before they start going dim..

Even at 10,000 hours, that's about 3 and a half years with 8 hours a day use. Not too bad.

[Paul_N]

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
As it stands, most apple displays last about 10,000-15,000 hours before they start going dim..

Even at 10,000 hours, that's about 3 and a half years with 8 hours a day use. Not too bad.

Hrmm, that might be good for an individual, but think of a business that purchases a bunch of 23" cinemaHDs. Every three & half years they're $2k investment will be moot, and will need to be replaced. CRTs will retain their value.

If anything, people reading this thread should realize that LCDs are essentially disposable monitors.

[angelmb]

Originally posted by Paul_N:
Hrmm, that might be good for an individual, but think of a business that purchases a bunch of 23" cinemaHDs. Every three & half years they're $2k investment will be moot, and will need to be replaced. CRTs will retain their value.

If anything, people reading this thread should realize that LCDs are essentially disposable monitors.

I verified that in my country, LaCie TFTs have three years warranty.

What´s up with the Cs, Paul?

[angelmb]

Another option is Eizo, has Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X software, ADC via DVI support, and 5 year warranty for the CG21 and CG19 models, conditions:

- the product shall be free from defects in material and workmanship for a period of five years, but subject to the usage time being 30,000 hours* or less from the date of purchase.

- the warranty period for the LCD panel and backlight is limited to three years from the date of purchase.

* 30,000 hours spread across five years allows for over sixteen hours of use a day (16 x 365 x 5 = 30,000).

[CatOne]

Originally posted by Paul_N:
Hrmm, that might be good for an individual, but think of a business that purchases a bunch of 23" cinemaHDs. Every three & half years they're $2k investment will be moot, and will need to be replaced. CRTs will retain their value.

If anything, people reading this thread should realize that LCDs are essentially disposable monitors.

The backlight in the Cinema HD is rated at "around" 60,000 hours. Not sure where the made up stuff is coming from.

[tooki]

Originally posted by angelmb:
Oh, I have no idea about that, do you mean crt, but also tft?

I believe so.

BTW, I see in the mitsubishi site that Nec is under Mitsubishi brand actually, I like Nec monitors a long time ago, the monitors come with the NEC monicker, cool. Where can I get prices to check how much are they worth versus the LaCie models?

NEC and Mitsubishi merged their monitor divisions a couple of years ago. In my opinion, Mitsubishi was the one bringing the better technology, while NEC was bringing the better-known brand name. And in fact, since the merger, most of the old NEC models were quietly replaced with Mitsubishi technology. Mitsubishi's low-end monitors were killed off (or rather converted to the NEC brand), while the Mitsubish brand retained the Diamond Pro line. As it stands now, there's very little differentiation between the two product lines.\


As for the pricing... do your own homework! LaCie and NEC/Mitsubishi are easy enough to find, I'm sure you can research that yourself! (As I said before, you do pay a premium for LaCie's brand, and the fact that they're blue.)

tooki

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by Paul_N:
Hrmm, that might be good for an individual, but think of a business that purchases a bunch of 23" cinemaHDs. Every three & half years they're $2k investment will be moot, and will need to be replaced. CRTs will retain their value.

If anything, people reading this thread should realize that LCDs are essentially disposable monitors.

This is a crazy post... First of all, few people (or businesses) use their displays for a full 8 hrs per day straight through. Secondly, 3.5 yrs is about as far out as you'd want to run most CRTs (particularly LaCie's) for color-critical work anyway. I'm not saying that it can't be done (I just got rid of my 4-5 yr old 22blue), but don't bet on it. This even applies to Barco monitors, which are arguably the finest CRTs available. These will last longer than 3.5 yrs, but not much and they'll cost you several thousand dollars. LCDs are no more disposable than CRTs.

[angelmb]

Originally posted by aaanorton:
This is a crazy post... First of all, few people (or businesses) use their displays for a full 8 hrs per day straight through. Secondly, 3.5 yrs is about as far out as you'd want to run most CRTs (particularly LaCie's) for color-critical work anyway. I'm not saying that it can't be done (I just got rid of my 4-5 yr old 22blue), but don't bet on it. This even applies to Barco monitors, which are arguably the finest CRTs available. These will last longer than 3.5 yrs, but not much and they'll cost you several thousand dollars. LCDs are no more disposable than CRTs.

so, there is nothing wrong going for a good TFT monitor, right?, I much preffer it over a CRT.

[tooki]

If you need the absolute best color accuracy possible (with calibration), then a CRT is for you. Otherwise, you'll probably be happy with the LCD.

tooki

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by tooki:
If you need the absolute best color accuracy possible (with calibration), then a CRT is for you. Otherwise, you'll probably be happy with the LCD.

Like I said before, technically this is correct, but for all intents and purposes an LCD can be just as accurate as a CRT. Just because you can measure the difference doesn't mean that it is a problem. I definitely need the absolute best color accuracy possible and am fully capable of recognizing this when I see it. As are my clients. I work with some of the most talented, renowned and (decidedly) demanding commercial photographers in the US and abroad. I use only Apple LCDs and if they were not accurate, I'd know about it. Hell, even Bruce Fraser said about the same thing about LCDs, and that was two years ago.

[tooki]

aaanorton: You're right that differences that are only measurable but not visible really don't make a difference. You are wrong, however, in insisting that the limitations of LCD technology are "only measurable."

I can see, with the naked eye, a difference between a calibrated CRT and a calibrated LCD. LCDs still have less-than-perfect backlight uniformity, less-than-perfect color uniformity and the color does shift somewhat depending on viewing angle. (I'm basing this on when I had to calibrate about 2 dozen monitors, half LaCie CRTs, the other half Apple Cinema Displays, with a Spectrolino. I am talking about effects I noticed with the naked eye post-calibration.) When viewed dead-on, the LCDs are accurate, but the viewing angle skews the color.

Do I believe that a calibrated LCD is sufficient for the vast majority of users? Absolutely. Do I believe that if you want the absolute best color possible from a display, you should get a calibrated CRT? Without hesitation. Is the difference big? Not really. But if you want the best, you go with the CRT option.

Please stop arguing that the differences are only measurable -- THAT is not true because I have seen the differences with my own eyes.

tooki

[HeatherEcsedi]

I have a Viewsonic CRT monitor that I suspect will die soon. I hear noises when I turn it on and sometimes, the screen blinks. That's why I'm looking for a new monitor. LaCie is definitely the brand I'll choose. I hesitated between the 19" CRT and the 19" TFT. I think I'll go for the CRT. I don't trust TFT yet. I'd like to have more experience with this technology and see how long they last. I believe the electron19blueIV has a signal a/b capability just like the 22" models we have at work. If so, this will be very convenient for me since I'll be able to hook up my PowerMacG4 and my old Beige G3 onto the same display and switch channels when I need to. The price is quite good and LaCie has a very good reputation.

If you want to calibrate your monitor, I do not recommend the LaCie device. We bought it with our 22" models. It doesn't work too well. Instead we now use the X-Rite DTP92 or the Gretag Macbeth Eye-One.