[tripleclamp]

I'm a graphic designer and I'm trying to decide between which display to get. I do a lot of page layout and the 23 inch advertises being able to see a full resolution 2 page spread and still have room for tools. The 20 inch however is more in my price range, but if the 23 inch is definatly better for the job and I won't have to upgrade to a large size later then I guess don't mind spending more. I need it now, but I'm concerned that the price will go down in a few months with the rumored new displays coming out. I guess my question is if the 23 inch's extra space is worth the extra dough or is there not a huge difference between the two monitors. Any advice?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Also important to note is that the picture and brightness of the 20 is better then the 23.

Unless you do video you will find the 20 more then enough.

[Link]

Try one of these HP 23" screens.

They're cheaper than the 23" cinema, have a faster pixel refresh rate, have an adjustable stand, and just about every form of input you can get

[sbc]

Is it difficult going back and forth between the 20/23 inch and then to the 15" PB screen or average 15 TFT screen?

Also, are factory refurnbs in good condition for the cinema displays?

[osxisfun]

Defiantly 20".

I would see one in person though before deciding...

[Hypatia]

The 23" is definitely worth the extra dough, IMHO.

I researched a lot of displays before I bought, and finally thought I'd get the Apple 20" and I, too was concerned about brightness. But then the prices of the 23" dropped and I was able to buy that.

Once you work on the 23" you'll never want another display. It is simply the best hardware purchase I've ever made. It's plenty bright, even for me. (I actually turned it down a bit) and the clarity is just stunning.

I switch back and forth between the 23" and a 15" TiBook and the TiBook has a beautiful display which is a pleasure to work on, but for graphics, and heck, even editing documents, the 23" is just a treat.

And no one ever complained in the forums about having too LITTLE screen real estate.

If you can wait, see if you can wait til the update. If you can't wait, you won't regret spending the money for the 23".

[Link]

I still highly reccommend the 23" HP display if you can afford the extra $400 above the cinema 20". Having said that, it's a VERY easy transition to go from a cinema display to any other monitor.. unless you have a 23" and a 12" powerbook (and even then I doubt it's a big deal) heheh.

Anyway, I just wouldn't reccomend refurbished monitors from apple. I doubt the difference in savings is enough to possibly warrant bad backlighting or a funked up bezel or something (then again they have to fix those by law it's just that you'd be presented with the problem in the first place).

Either way I still suggest that HP 23". They can be had for as little as $1400 or $1500 when they go on sale sometimes (or you find a coupon or something) -- try bensbargains.net maybe...

Still.. um.. yeah. I have a 22" cinema display myself which they haven't made for a while but they're beautiful screens.

[tooki]

Two 17-19" non-Apple flat panels side-by-side are REALLY nice, let me tell you. My best client got a pair of Samsung 191T+ displays (19" with thin bezels, with pivot function if you have a Radeon 9800) and loves them. A 17 or 18" LCD will give you the exact same resolution, just displayed in a smaller area. The thin bezel design means there's just a total of 1.5" between the two visible areas.

Oh, and the pair of displays AND the graphics card (her old G4 didn't have a dual-display capable card, as all current Macs do), plus the one necessary ADC->DVI adapter also needed, cost less than one 23" Cinema Display, and scarcely more than the 20".

tooki

[Link]

The thing about having dual displays is that when playing games you can only use one display.. and honestly having a 23" is worth it ^_^.... if you have a 23" hp that is

[tooki]

Unless it's one of the VERY few games that supports multiple displays. There was a flight simulator program years ago, whose name I forget, that let you use up to 3 displays to give you a wraparound field of view (one display for straight ahead, one each for R and L). It was 1996, by the way, that I saw it running like that at Macworld Boston.

I don't know if any flight sims since then have done that, much less other games.

tooki

[Link]

Yeah tooki, I'm aware of that game and it was aaaaaaages ago

[NYCFarmboy]

I highly recommend the Formac 20" LCD.

It is stunning. I've had mine for a year and 3 months... absolutely brilliant.

http://www.formac.com


MUCh better specs than a Apple LCD.. in fact it is so much brighter and has so much better contrast that you have to "dumb down" your graphics you produce a bit so they will look ok on Apple LCD's which have lower quality.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
MUCh better specs than a Apple LCD.. in fact it is so much brighter and has so much better contrast that you have to "dumb down" your graphics you produce a bit so they will look ok on Apple LCD's which have lower quality.

Then what is the point?

[CatOne]

Originally posted by tripleclamp:
I'm a graphic designer and I'm trying to decide between which display to get. I do a lot of page layout and the 23 inch advertises being able to see a full resolution 2 page spread and still have room for tools. The 20 inch however is more in my price range, but if the 23 inch is definatly better for the job and I won't have to upgrade to a large size later then I guess don't mind spending more. I need it now, but I'm concerned that the price will go down in a few months with the rumored new displays coming out. I guess my question is if the 23 inch's extra space is worth the extra dough or is there not a huge difference between the two monitors. Any advice?

I've used both. I prefer the 23" because it has a lot more real estate. On the 20" sometimes I still feel I run out of room a bit... but the 23" has a ton of room.

The 20" is a bit brighter, but not much. They both use the same exact backlight, so since the 23" is a bit bigger, it's a bit less bright, because the same amount of light has to light just a wee bit more space. I've never thought the 23" wasn't bright enough -- both of them are substantially brighter than a CRT.

The main advantage of the 20" over the 23" is that the 20" is SWOP certified -- if you do any D&P work that may be important to you (for end to end color accuracy). If you're not doing soft proofing it shouldn't matter -- in that case go 23

As for upcoming displays -- who knows. It's been a rumor for a long time now, I'm sure that at some point there will be new displays... just like at some point I'm sure there will be a 10 GHz CPU

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Then what is the point?

well there isn't one if you don't mind looking at things on a lower spec Apple moniter.

But if you do photoshop work and need to see things with better contrast for high end printing the Formac blows the Apple moniters out of the water.

The formac's LCD display contrast ratio is 700:1
The Apple LCD display contrast ratio is an amebic 350:1

[eddiecatflap]

..having used an mac 17" for the lat year and seeing both monitors , i think the best long term bet is to wait

..no bs

..the 20" is £1k?

wtf?

..daft

..when you can get an imac with the same screen for just an extra £500 , it seems mad to me , so the imac is only worth £500 ?

..who knows !?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
well there isn't one if you don't mind looking at things on a lower spec Apple moniter.

But if you do photoshop work and need to see things with better contrast for high end printing the Formac blows the Apple moniters out of the water.

The formac's LCD display contrast ratio is 700:1
The Apple LCD display contrast ratio is an amebic 350:1

We have the 20 Apple monitor and we find that even that is much to bright for any type of print work as most inks can't do what the monitor is showing. We have to cut down the brightness of our Apple displays to get an accurate picture.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
We have the 20 Apple monitor and we find that even that is much to bright for any type of print work as most inks can't do what the monitor is showing. We have to cut down the brightness of our Apple displays to get an accurate picture.

sorry to hear your Apple displays don't give you accurate results.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
sorry to hear your Apple displays don't give you accurate results.

Our Apple CRT is better for print just because it is less sharp and darker.

Everyone knows that LCD's are far to sharp and bright for print work.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Our Apple CRT is better for print just because it is less sharp and darker.

Everyone knows that LCD's are far to sharp and bright for print work.

yes.. less sharp and darker is always better.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
yes.. less sharp and darker is always better.

If you were a professional in the print industry you would agree that overly bright and sharp is not good.

[sbc]

I just visted CompUSA and MYGOOSHHHHHHHHHHHH that 20" screen is marvelous. I'm not sure if it was the lighting, but it did not look as vivrant as some pics I've seen online; it's still a beauty. The extra real estate is unmatched. I think the 23" is too big for any of my needs. The 20" is large enough but it looks too cool not to own, LOL!

[eddiecatflap]

..i agree , the 23" is enormous

..the 20" is the dp 1.8 of the mac range

..ie: perfect

[heresiarh]

if you have the money, go for the 23 incher.

[Hypatia]

Originally posted by heresiarh:
if you have the money, go for the 23 incher.

And, the 23" is only $1799 with the educational discount.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by eddiecatflap:
..i agree , the 23" is enormous

..the 20" is the dp 1.8 of the mac range

..ie: perfect

Well Said.

[heresiarh]

agreed.

[osxisfun]

agreed. 2X

[Kodachrome]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
If you were a professional in the print industry you would agree that overly bright and sharp is not good.

At one time this general statement was very true, especially when the output was on Windows machines which run at a darker color gamma than Macs.

However as more and more service bureaus/ press shops upgrade it is now a crapshoot on which you are going to get.

You still have to proof everything as what is too dark on one system will be too lite on another.

I use a Apple LCD (23") and my last photoshoot was printed on a new Dell array all which proofed on Dell LCD's.

so every situation is different, especially for photographers.

There is NO perfect moniter for EVERY graphic situation. Choose one that you are comfortible with for your OWN tastes and ignore everything else on here, as you are the one that has to use it.

I personnally LOVE the Apple 23" LCD's, but use a Formac 17" at my studio for color proofing as it is far more color accurate than my 23" Apple.

[tripleclamp]

I've decided to go with the 23"... Although the 20" would do the job (get a full resolution magazine spread on the screen), the 23" provides the extra space for tools. I'm convinced the extra real estate is worth it after hearing your replies and listing to what other graphic designers had to say. I about had a fit today trying to design magazine spreads on a 15 inch g4 powerbook, and am placing my order in the morning.

[heresiarh]

enjoy the 23' mate!

[Kodachrome]

you can never be too rich, too thin, or have too large a....display.

You will LOVE the 23".

[Link]

Originally posted by Hypatia:
And, the 23" is only $1799 with the educational discount.

Geez.. I know it sounds mean to drone but for $100 less you get all the goodies that one HP display had and if you use a PB don't need one of those $100 adapters (effecitvely making the price of the cinema display $100 more).

Honestly the acrylic case the cinema display has isn't ALL THAT. It's too damn low and only adjusts a little. I'd have to think about it before buying another cinema display. (I wish I could sit my 22" one on glass blocks)

I'm kinda puzzled why anyone would want to pay $100 more for a far less featured display Oh well! Enjoy it anyway

Actually I'll go on a limb.. I know I'm going to get flamed for this but oh well:

Hp monitor ($1699)
250cdm brightness
350:1 contrast
adjustable stand
DVI, VGA, S-Video, RCA, component inputs
16ms pixel refresh rate
90 degree pivot capability
3 year warranty (parts/labor/onsite)

Apple 23" display ($1999 normally, $1799 through EDU)
200cdm brightness
350:1 contrast
easel stand (it does save space but it's not very adjustable)
ADC interface
No pivot
"Lightning fast" pixel refresh rate
1 year warranty (90 day phone/1 year parts/labor)

Things to note:

HP support isn't as good as apple support. They have a bad habbit of replacing stuff with refurbs and you might have a bit of a time with them...

Ok, I apologize if I'm going a bit far here.. most people probably don't need any of the extra features and chances are better that the apple display will come to you better than the HP one, not to mention that they REALLY look cool and spacey when compared to the HP display (yeah that form over function stuff I guess but it's true).. there's nothing like an apple display in that respect.

I give the vague suggestion that if you can find a demo HP display to take a peek at, do that While it's true that you know what you're getting by buying an apple screen.. you are paying royally for it.

[CatOne]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
well there isn't one if you don't mind looking at things on a lower spec Apple moniter.

But if you do photoshop work and need to see things with better contrast for high end printing the Formac blows the Apple moniters out of the water.

The formac's LCD display contrast ratio is 700:1
The Apple LCD display contrast ratio is an amebic 350:1

Why are you showing the picture with the 17" here? The 17" ASD has nothing in common with the ACD's... TOTALLY different backlight and specifications.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by CatOne:
Why are you showing the picture with the 17" here? The 17" ASD has nothing in common with the ACD's... TOTALLY different backlight and specifications.

http://www.formac.co.uk/html/product...ors/1740_1.htm

[Link]

why anyone would buy a formac display is beyond me. If you're not going to have the apple logo you might as well get a screen:

*that has a smaller bezel
*better specs than the apple displays, significantly
*is considered "current" not a year old in specs
*has pivoting
*has adjustable height
*DVI and VGA inputs?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Even more importantly about Formac and why NOT to get one:

http://www.macintouch.com/formac.html

[Link]

Heheh, SAS, I remember those days about formac.

My reccomendations have been like this:

23" monitor = HP 23" LCD
20" monitor = Apple cinema display (20")
17" monitor = Samsung 172X

[NYCFarmboy]

to the previous two posts:

read the specs.

[Link]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
to the previous two posts:

read the specs.

To your post: Formac's US 'office' is a boarded up building. (apparently) I wouldn't trust that company with a dog.

Read their macintouch reports or ask a few people. They're full of bad reputation. First it was the days when they sold a video card for SGI displays (then refused to support OS X and offered people to send in the sgi display + card for 10% off a cheap noname display and card)... second the firmware issues with the studio DV box.. yup.

[HoosierK]

To the original question:

Go 23" if you can afford it for what you are doing with it you will very much appreciate the extra screen real estate.


....

on the topic of Formac:

I use both a 20" Apple LCD and a Formac 20". The Formac is a true 1600X1200, while the apple is just as wide, but not as tall (like Apple cut the bottom off to make it "wide screen".)

The Formac is WAY better than the Apple in terms of brightness/and color accuracy as well as view angle.

[motti]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Even more importantly about Formac and why NOT to get one:

http://www.macintouch.com/formac.html

The reviews concerning the displays are positive if you go to the bottom.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by motti:
The reviews concerning the displays are positive if you go to the bottom.

That's nice but the rest of the page talks problems.

[diskgolfking]

Rather than a single 20" I was considering getting 2 of these Viewsonic:

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/de...series/vp171b/

Two of those from newegg.com are cheaper than a single 20" Apple Cinema Display. And I really like the thin bezel.

Of course, I probably only have enough budget for one of those - which makes them even better

[sbc]

Originally posted by diskgolfking:
Rather than a single 20" I was considering getting 2 of these Viewsonic:

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/de...series/vp171b/

Two of those from newegg.com are cheaper than a single 20" Apple Cinema Display. And I really like the thin bezel.

Of course, I probably only have enough budget for one of those - which makes them even better

With an edu discount, the screen is 1100. The Apple Cinema appears competitively priced IMHO. Even Viewsonic's 20" are more expensive than choosing two of their 17" units. However, I have to asy I love the widescreen aspect of the Cinema. I have questions of their warranty and support service on the unit after the year term is up and you are in the Applecare period.

[osxisfun]

Two apple 20" = heaven*

Both can be driven off the same default vid card of the dual 2 gig.



*A third would be nirvana...

[diskgolfking]

The Apple Cinema Display will simply not be an option for me until it becomes height adjustable. It's a shame that such a good display comes without such a basic and necessary feature.

[motti]

Originally posted by diskgolfking:
The Apple Cinema Display will simply not be an option for me until it becomes height adjustable. It's a shame that such a good display comes without such a basic and necessary feature.

..exactly, and also competitive prices in Europe! For the price of a 20" ACD one can almost buy the new 23" HP

[iDaver]

Originally posted by Link:
Geez.. I know it sounds mean to drone but for $100 less you get all the goodies that one HP display had and if you use a PB don't need one of those $100 adapters (effecitvely making the price of the cinema display $100 more).

...

I give the vague suggestion that if you can find a demo HP display to take a peek at, do that While it's true that you know what you're getting by buying an apple screen.. you are paying royally for it.

Link,

Do you own one of those L2335s or are you simply quoting specs? I have been considering that display for a few weeks since it seems (by specs) equivalent or better than the 23" Cinema, and since Apple seems to be dragging its feet on redesigning its three-year-old display line. I'm just wondering if you've actually seen and used the HP.

[tripleclamp]

Well my 23'' came in yesterday and I love it. I dont' know how I got by without this thing. It looks really good and I'm stoked to finally have it. I found it online for $1707.