[MacNN Staff]

November 1, 2000

TO: Adaptec and QPS

RE: Poor customer service, technical support, and software

FROM: Steven Hackstadt, consumer

My wife bought me a QPS FireWire CD-RW drive for my iMac at the end of July. It came bundled with Toast OEM.

Today, for the first time, I successfully burned an audio CD (from a set of AIFF files) that did not have extra audio snippets between tracks. Prior to today, every attempt at doing this resulted in a playable CD that I would never want to listen to because of the annoying, extraneous audio snippets that occurred between tracks. But today that all changed....

My problem resembles (though is not identical to) a known problem going back to Toast 4.1. Toast 4.1.1 did not fix the problem, and no other update has been issued since. I have become impatient and irritated with QPS's and Adaptec's apathy and lack of communication on this and numerous other user complaints.

Personally, I made extensive attempts to solve my problem, trying all the obvious things like reducing my extensions, increasing memory and buffer size, trying different CD-R media, reinstalling Toast, etc. ad nauseum.

My hour-long call to QPS tech support was a complete waste of time that resulted in no change in my situation. I was put on hold multiple times by the support representative; I repeatedly had to explain that I had tried all of the solutions being suggested (and that they didn't work); and I got the distinct impression that I was being lied to -- that my problem was, in fact, a known issue that QPS (as Adaptec Toast's representative) simply did not want to admit. After all, if there was a known problem with no available fix, they could hardly deny my request to return the merchandise... which, of course, they did.

After additional personal testing and researching complaints from other users, I became convinced that the problem was primarily with Toast. However, having an OEM version I am unable to access Adaptec customer support directly. And buying Toast Deluxe under these circumstances... well, I don't think I need to explain why that wasn't going to happen.

And so I waited... a few more weeks... more rumors of a Toast update that was going to fix this and other problems... and another week passes. Still no update. Still no useful information from either company. Still not able to burn decent audio CDs.

And then something changed. I heard about some new CD mastering software for the Mac called CD Master by Radialogic. There was a preview version available for free, and people were saying good things about it. That was this afternoon. Upon arriving home from work, I downloaded the latest preview, installed it, and burned the same collection of AIFF files that so many times had resulted in a less-than-perfect audio CD when I used Toast.

And guess what? The disc burned flawlessly. No extra audio snippets. Not a single glitch.

Toast, version 4.1.1 versus CD Master Preview, version 1.0.3.

No question in this consumer's mind who the winner is! Better yet, Radialogic seems like they really want customer feedback and that they are doing their best to respond to it quickly.

For now, my Toast extensions are DISABLED. I have 4 more free burns on CD Master before the preview expires. What I do after that is yet to be decided. If a Toast updater comes out that fixes this problem, I'll probably stick with Toast OEM for the time being.

Will I upgrade to Toast Deluxe? Well, for $99 I can buy a piece of software that works properly from a company that is eager to respond to its customer's needs... or, I can buy one that doesn't from a company that isn't.

Which one do you think I'll pick?

Regretfully,
-Steven Hackstadt

PS: I have cc'ed a copy of this message to Radialogic, who I hope will continue the good work they are doing, and who I expect will begin converting many Adaptec customers into their own.

CD MAster software's installer will corrupt Toast 4.0 prefs and you cannot use Toast because of driver error. I hope the reinstallation will help. The interface of CD master is also inferior. The software was not able to burn files that were located on different harddrives.
I feel that the CD Master that can be downloaded from Net is just a beta version not a final program
Regards

Andy Strong

re: -Steven Hackstadt's experience with Toast

The problem here is that Toast will not burn "red book" standard audio CDs. Adaptec have another product called "Jam" which does this. To burn compliant "red book" CDs with no gaps between tracks you need software and hardware which will write "disk-at-once" mode. I doubt the OEM version of Toast does this and earlier versions certainly do not. I have found Toast to be an excellent product - you just have to know its limitations. It is unfortunate that the customer reps at QPS or Adaptec could not explain this.

[ColinT]

Unfortunately Jam suffers the same problem as Toast with regards to the extra audio snippets. This renders Jam useless in my eyes. I wish I had kept my old yamaha 2 speed and not spent 429 uk pounds on a drive which is not compatible with the one program I use most.

Andy Strong,

We have never seen or received feedback on our product corrupting Toast preferences. If you would provide more information, I will look into it - the only thing I can think of is that we move the Toast CD extensions to our folder, because you cannot have 2 drivers loaded for devices at the same time.

If you have any other questions or comments, please check out our website at http://www.radialogic.com

michael.

I've had the same problems with Toast OEM using a Lacie 8/4/32 CDRW with a plextor mechanism. It adds audio snippets in between tracks on occasion. These audio snippets are .5 - 1.0 sec. clips from random portions of the AIFF files. On some CDS it always adds them, and on the rest it adds them about 30% of the time. It pisses me off that Toast is the only damn CD burning program for Macs, until now. I'm going to be checking out CD master for sure. I looked into Jam but didn't buy it, now I see that was a good decision, since that piece of sh!t program also puts in these snippets. Adaptec hasn't released many updates for Toast; I suspect they really don't care if it burns audio CDs properly or not, since they have a monopoly on the OEM market for Mac. How hard can this problem be to fix? None of the burning apps for PCs seem to have this problem! I dearly hope that the makers of CD Master aggresively market their software to CDRW drive manufacturers so that it can be packaged as OEM software. Mac users should not have to pay an extra $100 for reliable CD burning software. Hell, for PC users, they can even download apps like Nero for FREE, and they burn audio CDs flawlessly. This is an outrage.

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[This message has been edited by Phaedrus (edited 11-04-2000).]

[ColinT]

I would migrate to CD Master but would lose the crossfade functionality which Jam offers me. It is ludicrous that these incompatibilities have existed with these 'professional' Adaptec programs for so long.

I have encountered the same problem with my TDK VeloCDR drive. I was able to burn good CD's using my old 2x Pinnacle and version 3.5 Toast. Of course only 4.1 will see non-SCSI drives. I was able to work around the problem by converting all of my files to MP3 and then back again to AIFF. I used the highest quality conversion so as not to loose much information.

I have felt that ever since Adaptec had acquired Toast, it has gone downhill. I am very glad to see another product and hope they are also developing for OS X simultaneously.

[Targon]

Tried CD Master-it has now been deleted.

CD Master's Extract Audio performance is poor. The implementaion is even worse. This app will not enable the user to select segments of audio from a track on a CD. It does not display the extraction rate in kbs/sec like Toast Audio Extractor. CD master does not appear to extract the audio files from a CD to any hard drive location and there are no audio file format save options. The first import audio file from CD function I tried, came up with an error.

For Audio CD Adaptec's Jam 2.6 is by far the most superior Red Book format software available. We have used Digidesigns MasterList in the past, however Jam performs admirably.

I'd be surprised if u guys get audio glitches on your CD's using Jam 2.6 with the Toast Reader 4.1.1 extention.

For now CD Master has alot of growing up to do before the press start proclaiming it as the greatest thing on the planet since the Mac. Clearly CD Master is aimed at general data CD burning. If fails miserably for any serious Audio work.

I will look at this app again in 1 years time.

Regards
TaRGØN

None of you has mentioned Emagic`s Mac-only CD-burner software. Emagic is the no. 1 developer of Audio-Midi-Sequencers for music production.
Although I wasn`t able to use Waveburner as it`s Mac-only and I`m still a Microslave the software was reported to DO JUST WHAT YOU WANT: burn Audio-CDs without breaks.
And WAVEBURNER is not a new product and therefore no "beta-sate"-software.

Although the text on Emagic`s webpage might imply it`s expensive: It`s not!
http://www.emagic.de/english/product...aveburner.html

WAVEBURNER is great! I bought a Yamaha 8424 last year, and was dissatisfied with Toast. I read a good review of WaveBurner; the review was reinforced by an industry friend. I am not a professional, I just had overtime pay to spend on a treat (I think WaveBurner was $160).

Waveburner works with several different audio formats (it will translate them all into aiff during recording). It does much more than simply eliminate breaks between tracks--waveburner allows a remarkable amount of control over crossfades, blends, all within a wave-form editor window. The entire program is well-designed and very intuitive. I opened the manual only to attach the serial# sticker!

Look here: http://macworld.zdnet.com/1999/09/reviews/audiocd.html (Incidentally, a quick web search for waveburner will result in a long list of editor's awards, best of year awards, professional's choice awards--that's what I got just trying to find the MacWorld address!)

I do not know CD Master or Jam, so I do not mean to disparage either product, and I know this forum is in regards to Adaptec/Radiologic problems--but I cannot speak highly enough of WaveBurner!

[Cipher13]

I have had a Yamaha 8424 ofr a while now, and for the most part have used Toast Deluxe 4.1.
Since getting the G4, I have not had a single problem burning CD's.
Not a single Coaster.
Audio CD's, multi session CD's, multi-format, etc...
However, I was plagued with problems with Toast OEM.
I suggest trying Toast Deluxe.
I'll give that Waveburn a go too...

Cipher13

[John Dwight]

Waveburner looks good; thanks for the link. Their webpage mentions specific CD burners supported by the software, unfortunately the QPS burner isn't on the list. Bummer.

This Waveburner looks like a gem... I found a few reviews that are worth checking out:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Newp/...urner-Pro.html
http://www.emagic.de/english/aes2000/products/wbp.html


I also noticed at emagic's site that many of their sound-editing plug-ins are altivec-enabled. Not bad! Too bad about the price...

------------------

[ColinT]

So there seems to be no software package out there that will sucessfully burn crossfade audio cd's on a QPS Que Fire drive. Come on Adaptec and QPS, sort it out.

Emagic makes the best Midi/Audio sequencer on earth, Wave burner is for Pros, its the BMW of Audio CDR softwatre, so the price is so littel for what it does, the assumption that most multi-media pros use a Mac, there are loads of PC consumer junk for CDRs................Emagic is a small company unlike $daptec......

I wrote the letter that started this topic. It has generated several responses from Adaptec and Radialogic. Interestingly, QPS has had nothing to say. No big surprise there....

Radialogic, of course, was glad to hear the positive feedback. And I received the most responses from Adaptec, most of them apologetic, some of them actually useful.

For example, I have it on good authority from the Toast product manager that Toast 4.1.2 will be available from Adaptec's web page next week (Nov. 13-17). It supposedly contains a workaround for the extra audio snippet problem (and other problems, I assume?).

Let me also clarify some confusion in this topic. The "extra audio snippets" problem and the "no gap (0 sec.) between tracks" problems are completely different. These problems have completely different symptoms. The first problem, which is what I have experienced, is indicated by the repetition of a small piece of audio (0.5-1 sec.) at the end of a track, as described in Phaedrus's comments. The second problem is indicated by not being able to lay down two adjacent tracks without a perceptible pause between them, as mentioned in Andrew Brouse's comments.

I don't know whether Toast 4.1.2 will correct the "no gap" problem or not, as this was not the subject of my original complaint to QPS and Adaptec.

Incidentally, and I know this has been posted elsewhere, Adaptec seems to consider the problem(s) with QPS FireWire drives to be between QPS, Initio, and Plextor. We've all heard about the supposed problems with the IDE-to-FireWire bridge. Whatever. Who knows how long that will take to resolve. At least Adaptec is (apparently and finally) going to try to workaround the problems until they are resolved.

I agree that there are shortcomings to Radialogic's CD Master, the most noticeable of which was how long it took to import audio tracks. (Also, the Test Speed function needs to be differentiated from an actual burn!)

Nonetheless, I still find it compelling that Radialogic was able to get it right on their version 1 preview, while Adaptec is still trying to figure it out.

-Steve

[marusin]

Hey everyone,

Well, I was one of the people that bought a 8x4 QPS Firewire CD-RW back in September or so.. I trade extensively concerts of bands that allow recording (ie: Phish, Strangefolk, String Cheese Incident).. For me, a drive that burns disc-at-once is mandatory..

So I had the QPS Drive and purchased Adaptec Jam to go along with it (I heard stories of Toast putting small gaps even when you selected "No Gaps" between songs).. Anyways, I was never able to burn a cd using this combo (Again a QPS Firewire DRive and Adaptec Jam).. After talking to QPS, I was under the impression that I had a faulty drive... I went to Outpost.com (where I bought it) and exchanged it for another QPS drive.. Once again, the drive hung EVERY TIME I tried burning a cd with no gaps...

I returned the second drive back to Outpost.com and got on the wait-list for the Yamaha 8x8x24 Firewire CD-RW... I got it and I have to tell you that I am the happiest person ever.. This drive has yet to burn me a coaster.. I have probably burned over 40 cds on it since I've gotten it and it's fantastic... What's even better than a drive that burns correctly 100% of the time? It's a drive that RIPS AN AUDIO CD at 24x! I'm ripping cds down into .AIFF files in minutes!

I believe that the Plextor Interface just doens't "get along well" with the IDE to Firewire converter that is in the back of the QPS drives.. The same thing seems to be happening in a lot of Plextor-based drives...

To me, QPS is a very shady company and is obviously selling a product that doesn't work the way it is advertised...

I CANNOT RECOMEND THE YAMAHA DRIVE ENOUGH!!! It's $10 cheaper than the QPS (although you may get a rebate from QPS if they are in business long enough)...

A very satisfied Yamaha customer,
Mike

[rambo47]

I just got the Yamaha 8/8/24 FireWire for my B&W G3 and I'm very impressed. I was on the verge of getting the QPS when I took a gander at these posts on the subject, so disaster was narrowly averted. "Yamaha rules, QPS drools!" Haha. One from my 5-year old.

------------------
-bo47

"There is no spoon."

This is all rather disconcerting to me since my new Firewire QPS 12x10x32x CDRW is arriving tomorrow. Wondering if I should just send it back? My brother burns audio CD's just fine with Toast and his Yamaha SCSI burner.

I have also had a lot of issues with the QPS drive.
It is constantly producing coasters when I make either music or data discs.
I seem to be getting one bad disc out of every three made.
I have has feedback from QPS who just tell me that there is no problem, and that everything should be fine. I know it should be fine but it is not.

I have yet to have a single suggestion from them on how to fix this problem.

Ian

Agree wholeheartedly with your assessments on the companies involved. I ranted from time to time on dealchat/mac about Adaptec's (seemingly) grudging updates to Toast, although most of the time my complaints were focused on their now-dead Mac version of DirectCD, which (used to) allow for mounting/writing of CD-Rs and CD-RWs on your desktop like any other removable/mountable. From what I was told, they haven't given a rat's butt about Jam in a while either (though I don't use the program and haven't followed its lack of progress).

I once had a QPS drive (the USB version a few years (?) ago) and got rid of it as soon as I could. Gave me worlds of trouble. When QPS absolutely refused to take it as a return (big surprise), I had to give in to their "turn off every extension except ours, run absolutely no programs except ours, burn your audio CDs at no more than 2x, though it probably won't work unless you use 1x, etc." It reminded me of the old problems I used to have with Microsoft Word 6...'scuse me, got a shiver remembering that...when an MS rep told me that all I should have is "your base system installed and then MS Word and then nothing else" in order for it to run right.

Microsoft changed its tune after dozens of bad reviews and revamped and revitalized its Mac products -- I use MS Office, pretty much only Word though, and its great. Very clean, very stable, very comfortable (your mileage may vary). It's not "the only game in town" of course, but the MBU at Microsoft keeps it at the forefront.

Adaptec, which seems to be focused only on their Windows-software bottom line, has relegated the Mac division to "red headed stepchild status". Sure, Toast updates come out occasionally, but it seems only when they have to come out -- like when someone wants to do an OEM bundle deal. I'm not conspiracy minded, but it's awfully fishy that the typical response I read from fellow Mac users is "Adaptec told me I had to upgrade to the Deluxe version for $99".

I won't do a new rant on DirectCD; a search on dealchat.com/mac will find my many complaints about that program. It's a great idea left to rot, although the Windows version seems to be chugging along nicely with regular updates. Software Architects has a product coming out called WriteCD-RW!, which I'm hoping will provide the functionality of the fabled DirectCD for Macintosh.

It's dangerous for a company to get too comfy with a product it sees as the panacea of its class. Norton got like this with Norton Utilities, which it figured would have the stranglehold on the Mac world forever. When I upgraded to OS 8.1 and HFS+ (that was 8.1, wasn't it, or was it 8.5?) and contacted Symantec about HFS+ support, I was curtly told they'd support HFS+ "when they *got around to it* and I should not upgrade to the new OS/HFS until they were ready for it. No kidding. Conversely, MicroMat was ready out the gate for HFS+ with TechTool Pro, and I've never given Norton another look. Dumped their AntiVirus (when it was still a Mac program called "SAM") for Virex too.

Dantz also did the same with Retrospect: a good product at the outset, then the company started focusing on their new "Windows" client. I haven't used it in a while -- I do "real file" backup to a number of external sources -- but I remember it really stunk. I could hardly believe so many people were recommending it. (For the record, I use Connectix's CopyAgent for "smart replace" backups, and before that, FoldersSynchronizer).

Complacency and comfort zones lead to bad products. Sooner or later these guys are going to realize that Mac users have money to spend too and, other than the machine itself and the OS, brand loyalty runs very thin.

RALPH

Good news, folks!

There really is a Toast 4.1.2 coming out. I squeaked loud enough and Adaptec greased me with a copy of the beta. I just installed it and burned the exact same set of audio files that had given me so much grief in the past (and which, I remind you, CD Master had no problems with). Under the yet-to-be-released Toast 4.1.2, I did not get any extra audio snippets.

For those of you having freezes, the prospects also look good. Here's what the Readme says will be fixed:

What's New in Toast 4.1.2?

• A workaround for a Plextor PX-W1210A problem that caused 0.3 seconds of random audio to be added at the end of audio tracks in certain cases.
  
• A workaround for a Matsushita CW-7585 problem that caused the program to hang at the end of copying certain audio tracks.
  
• A workaround for a firmware bug in the Initio T-215 FireWire-ATAPI bridge (found in some QPS Que! FireWire CD-RW drives, among others) that caused a hang while writing audio.
  
• A Disc-At-Once problem with Mitsumi 4802 drives has been fixed.
  
• A problem where Toast would hang while ejecting the disc after a DAO burn on certain Iomega ZipCD drives has been fixed.
  
• A workaround for a bug in the Apple Audio extension that caused a crash after hot plugging a CD-RW drive several times in succession.
  
• A buffer underrun problem with DAO and the Ricoh MP6200S has been corrected.
  
• Many Sony CD-RW drives cannot record multiple sessions of different data types (for instance a CD-ROM XA track and a mode 1 track), and they incorrectly report attempts to do so with buffer underrun errors and illegal request errors. Toast 4.1.2 now intercepts these errors and displays an intelligent error message.
  
• Toast Deluxe no longer reverses the left and right audio channels when receiving audio from CD Spin Doctor.
  
• The recorder Self-Test feature no longer reports bogus errors with certain drives when no disc was inserted at the time of the self-test.
  
• The Toast CD Reader no longer cuts off the last 5 seconds of audio playback at the end of a CD.
  
• The Toast CD Reader now no longer repeats the beginnings of tracks when the Forward button is used to skip to a track.
  
• The Toast 4.1.1 Read Me file incorrectly stated that only Track-At-Once recording would be used when using MP3 source files. In fact, it is possible to use Disc-At-Once with MP3 source data.

Phwew... quite a list, eh? Like I said in my earlier post, Adaptec said this will be released next week.


[This message has been edited by toastk (edited 11-07-2000).]

[Paulos]

now I'm a bit worried...

I have the same audio snippet problem on my que 8x4x32x PX-W8432T... will the workaround work on mine, too? The readme only states the PX-W1210A.

if not i'm going to cd master (works flawlessly with my drive, by the way)

[ColinT]

I hope that these modifications are also reflected in Jam and that they indeed work on the Que 8x4x32. Maybe Adaptec should have some more beta testers.

Well an update for you, I requested the 214 update from QPS and applied it to my drive, which does seem to have worked.

Having said that I have only made 2 CD's one music and one data, but the music CD did not have any stray sounds between tracks so that's an improvement.

I will let you know if this is a permanent fix.

I will also update to 4.1.2 when it arrives, see if that make it better or worse.

Ian

Wow, that's good news about the Toast update. Does it appy to the OEM Toast, or only to Toast Deluxe? I'm having the same problems with a Lacie/Plextor drive and I feel like I've been had. I burn many concert CDRs, and currently I have a success rate under 50%. Perhaps I will attempt to return the drive to MacMall and get the Yamaha, but knowing MacMall I'm probably stuck with this drive. Hopefully the toast update will have some effect, and not be a typical MS-style update that merely replaces old bugs with new ones, forcing you to buy the next version to fix the new bugs.

------------------

Looks like I'm screwed. MacMall wont return the drive, so I'm going to have to talk to Lacie about it. I suppose I'll wait for the Toast update. Hopefully there is an update for Jam, too, cause I just got that and have the same problems. Adaptec can't seem to get anything right with their software.

Does Waveburner actually support FireWire CDRWs? Their website seems to suggest SCSI burners only, and none of the reviews I looked at said anything about supported drives. Has anyone tried this with a FireWire drive (QPS, Yamaha, or otherwise...)?

Thanks