[Eug Wanker]

I'll probably buy the next iteration of the Mac mini (Core Duo). Which TVs does the current model work with? I'm especially interested in 1080p LCD TVs (or possibly plasmas). Personally, I have zero interest in rear projection TVs. I'm likely going to buy a new TV in 2006, but Mac mini 1920x1080 compatibility is a must.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

If you're hooking a mini to it I would avoid a plasma as with front row or music playing you will get burn in.

It should work with Any TV that has HDMI.

[plasticman]

just to add, you'll need a DVI to HDMI cable

[mduell]

You need one with DVI or HDMI (DVI+audio+Digital Restrictions Management) inputs.

The old plasmas (and LCDs for that matter) had burn-in problems, but the current generation seem to have resolved that.

LCoS is the hot new technology... some great looking displays use it.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by mduell

The old plasmas (and LCDs for that matter) had burn-in problems, but the current generation seem to have resolved that.

Nope that is bullshit. They have reduced it but in no way is it solved. Even CRT's still get it and they are 60 years old.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

Nope that is bullshit. They have reduced it but in no way is it solved. Even CRT's still get it and they are 60 years old.

By "resolved that" I meant it won't happen in the reasonable lifetime of the display.

[Eug Wanker]

I came across this 42" 1080p Westinghouse LVM-42w2 which looks interesting, but which doesn't seem to exist in Canada. I found a place that will ship to Canada, but I'd rather purchase locally.



It has 1 HDMI, 1 VGA, and 2 DVI ports, all of which do 1080p. It also has 2 component, 1 S-video, and 1 composite.

[Eug Wanker]

Costco in the US has the Sceptre 1080p 42" TV for $1999.

Not available in Canada though, and it's kind of ugly:

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by mduell

By "resolved that" I meant it won't happen in the reasonable lifetime of the display.

I have seen complaints of people panicking because after only TWO months station logo's are burnt into the screen.

[vinster]

double post

[vinster]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I'll probably buy the next iteration of the Mac mini (Core Duo). Which TVs does the current model work with? I'm especially interested in 1080p LCD TVs (or possibly plasmas). Personally, I have zero interest in rear projection TVs. I'm likely going to buy a new TV in 2006, but Mac mini 1920x1080 compatibility is a must.

That Westinghouse looks good but it's worth making a few points about making the mini into a home-entertainment hub.

I have the G4 mini hooked up to a 32" Sharp AQUOS via DVI and learned a few things in the process of building out my set up. Thought I'd pass them on to make sure you're getting a system that works best for you.

1. TV: I recommend getting an LCD. They are the only sets currently available with 1920x1080 pixels. I don't know of any Plasmas that have native 1920x1080 screens (correct me if I'm wrong though).

2. Input: Make sure you get a DVI input on the TV to hook up the mini. I've seen many reports of people having problems getting native resolution with HDMI conversions (i.e. they have to send a 720p or 1080i signal to the display which is subsequently scaled to the TV's screen) - more on this below.

3. Resolution: This is related to input and worth doing a bit more research on before getting a TV.

The first thing to be aware of is that to get 1920x1080 compatibility the TV should support a 1080p input. Not many 1080-native TVs do this, they support a 1080i, 60Hz input then convert to progressive scan internally. I doubt that the new mini or its future offspring or, for that matter, most PCs video circuitry is able send an interlaced 1920x1080 signal. I recall reading that some new Nvidia cards are able to do it with the latest OEM drivers, but it's rare. So I'd make sure the TV's DVI supports a true 1080p signal.

Also regarding resolution, there are a lot of TV's out there that have high-resolution screens (i.e. 1366x768 or greater) but only support standard PC resolutions out of the box (my Sharp AQUOS being one of them). The problem lies with the TV's extended data identification (EDID) chip (part of the DVI specification). The chips in these TV's tell your computer what resolutions can be set, so when you plug in your mini it'll only give you options for non-native standard-PC-style resolutions. You can then use the TV's option menu to stretch the display a full screen, but everything's distored somewhat. There are 3rd-party utilities such as DisplayConfigX which add system resources allowing you to force-send a native signal (which is how I drive my AQUOS at its native resolution (looks great BTW)). However, this could be broken at any time by system or (video) hardware updates. I'm uncertain if the intel video chip in the new mini's even supported as there's no information on the developer's site regarding support for any of the new intel Macs at this time.

Since the home-theatre PC is mostly for hobbyists at this time, there's not a lot of support or common knowledge of the incompatibilities people face when integrating the device into a home-entertainment setting. So it's ideal if you can take your computer to the store when you're ready to purchase a TV and test to make sure it works as expected.

Good luck!

[mduell]

Originally Posted by vinster

The first thing to be aware of is that to get 1920x1080 compatibility the TV should support a 1080p input. Not many 1080-native TVs do this, they support a 1080i, 60Hz input then convert to progressive scan internally. I doubt that the new mini or its future offspring or, for that matter, most PCs video circuitry is able send an interlaced 1920x1080 signal. I recall reading that some new Nvidia cards are able to do it with the latest OEM drivers, but it's rare. So I'd make sure the TV's DVI supports a true 1080p signal.

From the Intel GMA950 Overview:
* HDTV 480i/p, 576i/p, 720i/p and 1080i/p display resolution support
* Interlaced Display output support
* 16x9 and 16x10 Aspect Ratio for widescreen displays

[vinster]

Originally Posted by mduell

From the Intel GMA950 Overview:
* HDTV 480i/p, 576i/p, 720i/p and 1080i/p display resolution support
* Interlaced Display output support
* 16x9 and 16x10 Aspect Ratio for widescreen displays

That's good news, hopefully OS X's drivers support those resolutions.

[F*ckDell]

Just like Eug Wanker, I am also looking to make a Mini into a media center computer. What you're trying to tell everyone is to wait until 1080p tv sets become more common. I've read that Panasonic will be coming out with a 1080p LCD and/or Plasma by the end of this year. But from what I understand, will cost some money... I'm in no rush to start my media center, but its good to know that I'm not the only one thinking about Minis and LCDs...


ANYONE, besides the new Intel chips, have any specs or ideas on the new Power Towers??????

[Eug Wanker]

Thanks for the info vinster. A few things I've learned about the Westinghouse...

A few people have reported light bleed at the corners, but others have not. Blacks apparently are very good, but reportedly not quite as good as the top end LCD TVs like the Sony Bravia line.

1) ALL four digital inputs support 1080p: HDMI, DVI x 2, VGA. However, there is overscan on the HDMI port, but there are different settings:

HDMI: "Standard" - Overscans a little, and maybe too little for a few channels. "Fill" - Overscans a lot
DVI: "Standard" - No overscan - 1:1 pixel mapping - perfect fit. "Fill" - Overscans, but I'm not sure by how much. Less than HDMI on "Fill" though.
VGA: Dunno

Originally Posted by vinster

That's good news, hopefully OS X's drivers support those resolutions.

Dunno about the Mac mini, but apparently it works on the Westinghouse with a PowerBook G4 via DVI.

ANYONE, besides the new Intel chips, have any specs or ideas on the new Power Towers??????

My guess is they won't be shipping in volume until Q4 2006, or Q3 at the earliest.

[F*ckDell]

On the same topic of Mini's being media center computers... as I was driving to class I thought of this question. Is there anyway you can turn a Mini into a DVR, record live tv? There isn't a video in... or I don't think there is. Any ideas guys?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by F*ckDell

On the same topic of Mini's being media center computers... as I was driving to class I thought of this question. Is there anyway you can turn a Mini into a DVR, record live tv? There isn't a video in... or I don't think there is. Any ideas guys?

There are Firewire and USB 2 options available to get video into the Mac mini.

[F*ckDell]

Ahhh... I see, I see... so using the Mini's HDD to record live TV is a possibility...

Thanks for the clarification!

[stevesnj]

dont bother getting a Plasma...the biggest scam in tv's ever!! IMHO LCD all the way...Panasonics are excellent from my experience

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

dont bother getting a Plasma...the biggest scam in tv's ever!! IMHO LCD all the way...Panasonics are excellent from my experience

Explain.

Under 42 inches it is more cost effective to get a LCD.

Over 42 inches and Plasma is cheaper (but that is not saying it is better).

[Eug Wanker]

I like plasmas for TV and DVD usage. I don't see them as so good for use with a Mac mini though. Anyways, I don't want anything over 42" so it makes more sense for me to go with an LCD.

P.S. I think I will definitely hold off on the Westinghouse until I see more reviews.

[vinster]

There are new Sharp models coming out now and in May that look pretty good. The higher-end models have a '90U' designation, compared to '45U' for the lower-end.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by vinster

There are new Sharp models coming out now and in May that look pretty good. The higher-end models have a '90U' designation, compared to '45U' for the lower-end.

What's the difference, and how good are they for computer inputs? Are they 1080p?

I am hearing that the Mac mini supports native 1366x768 by the way, but I'd like to see confirmation of that.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by vinster

There are new Sharp models coming out now and in May that look pretty good. The higher-end models have a '90U' designation, compared to '45U' for the lower-end.

When it comes to best quality it is widely accepted that Pioneer Elite is the best Plasma (although they cost a fortune), Panasonic is the best Plasmas for midrange and Sony for LCD's.

Kinda a shitty time to buy Plasma and LCD though as OLED and SED is around the corner.

Personally i HATE plasma, they eat power, get burn and and wear out. Plus I see the screen door effect too much. Also, I don't like the way they have glass screens as reflections are a major issue.

LCD's have some anti-glair coating and don't have a glass screen.

If you are totally set on not getting a LCD RP then I would get a Sony LCD.

For $4000 CAN though you aren't going to get anything over 40 inches though.

[Eug Wanker]

SED is going to be insanely expensive, and won't even be out until 2007.

I like plasma. Screen door is partially a function of resolution and screen size, but 1080p plasmas are now out. Personally I think all TVs above 50" should be 1080p anyway (which seems obvious considering I want a 1080p 42" TV ). I'm told though that plasma isn't so good for PCs (and Mac minis).

The Sonys are still in running, especially now (well, Q2 2006) that the Bravia line is including 1080p models. The question for me though is how well it will mesh with a Mac mini.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

SED is going to be insanely expensive, and won't even be out until 2007.

I like plasma. Screen door is partially a function of resolution and screen size, but 1080p plasmas are now out. Personally I think all TVs above 50" should be 1080p anyway (which seems obvious considering I want a 1080p 42" TV ). I'm told though that plasma isn't so good for PCs (and Mac minis).

I'm not so sure you are fully grasping the idea of Media Centre, video games, computer monitor + Plasma = BURN IN.

Having it top of the line or in 1080p will not make you immune to it. Nor will anything else.

Heck, when I was buying my next tv I was looking closely at Plasmas and the second I mentioned Video games the manager mentioned to me that it wasn't a good idea. This is coming from Bay Bloor radio who sell mostly plasma sets ranging from $3000 to $20,000.

Front row would rape your plasma.

[Eug Wanker]

I know that. However, I usually am careful about that sort of thing. Mind you, my GF isn't, so that still could be a problem. Plus, I don't have a console now so it hasn't been an issue. That could all change once I get that console.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I know that. However, I usually am careful about that sort of thing. Mind you, my GF isn't, so that still could be a problem. Plus, I don't have a console now so it hasn't been an issue. That could all change once I get that console.

How can you be careful though? I mean one night of leaving it on and you can be toast. Even if you don't static images often it isn't a good idea. There are no warnings when burn in starts.

You cannot fix burn in.

Best to go into Bay Bloor radio, they have TONS of plasmas and LCD's and are rather knowledgeable.

[F*ckDell]

Would a Sony Bravia (KDL-V40XBR1) work well with a Mac Mini as a Media Centre? I don't know much about this TV set, but from what I understand it would work well together... anyone think differently?

[mduell]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

How can you be careful though? I mean one night of leaving it on and you can be toast. Even if you don't static images often it isn't a good idea. There are no warnings when burn in starts.

You cannot fix burn in.

Then you better not buy Apple's LCDs.

[Eug Wanker]

LCDs don't suffer from true burn-in. The so-called burn-in can be corrected. Burn-in on plasmas is permanent.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

LCDs don't suffer from true burn-in. The so-called burn-in can be corrected. Burn-in on plasmas is permanent.

Exactly. Never saw it happen either. Considering my menu's are at the top of the screen 12 hours a day and when I watch a DVD I don't see a trace of them I would have to say they are rare.

Plus they are correctable.

[vinster]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

What's the difference, and how good are they for computer inputs? Are they 1080p?

I am hearing that the Mac mini supports native 1366x768 by the way, but I'd like to see confirmation of that.

Here's a PDF of their entire 2006 line up. I read somewhere that the 1080p DVI port's designed specifically for HTPC and blu-ray DVD compatibility.

I'm running the G4 mini at 1366x768 by way of a 3rd party utility. This setting would be supported by a default OS X installation if hooked up to a monitor with that resolution programmed into the EDID chip (same with 1920x1080). I'm pretty sure the intel mini will behave the same.

[Eug Wanker]

The Sharp lineup looks good, but I'm disappointed that they don't have a 42 incher. 37" is a little small (especially since I already have a 34" anyway), and 45" is a little big.

Plus, they list 1080p compatibility only for the 37" for some reason, and there is no 45" 1080p version either.

[vinster]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Plus, they list 1080p compatibility only for the 37" for some reason, and there is no 45" 1080p version either.

Good observation. Sharp has holes in their higher-end lineup at the >40" range (which is probably the best size for most living/family rooms). I'd say it's because they manufacture their own panels and may need to re-tool in order to produce the latest-generation 45" screens and/or perhaps there are other supply constraints. Bad timing for them since flat-screen TV's are becoming more of a commodity and they'll probably lose sales and market position due to this.

Looks like the 37"'s the sweet spot in their offerings.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Here is something I never understood. Why don't they make the bulbs in LCD's user replaceable? They are pretty cheap on their own and I know techy people who do it a lot.

[vinster]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

Here is something I never understood. Why don't they make the bulbs in LCD's user replaceable? They are pretty cheap on their own and I know techy people who do it a lot.

Simple. It's because the bulbs don't burn out for 60,000 hours (about 6.8 years if you ran the TV 24x7). By that time, most people (especially techy people) would rather just see what new TVs are available.

That's what I hate about those projection TV's. You have to deal with replacing an expensive bulb every couple of years.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by vinster

Simple. It's because the bulbs don't burn out for 60,000 hours

Actually no. They slowly yellow. They don't look 100% till it hits 60,000 and then go poof.

[vinster]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

Actually no. They slowly yellow. They don't look 100% till it hits 60,000 and then go poof.

So they have a half life of 6.8 years if constantly on, even better. Just adjust the color temp/settings, crank up the backlight a few notches and you're good to go for another who knows how long.

Another reason the backlights in LCDs aren't easily user replaceable is because they need to be environmentally sealed. At any rate, if you really wanted to you can do it yourself or find a techy who will do it for you.

[Eug Wanker]

Damn. I am sitting here watching the price of that 42" Westy go up.

One of the reasons I had been interested was because the CAD$ was up over US$0.88 when I first checked the price of this unit a few days ago. Since then it's dropped a couple of cents, which means the estimated CAD$ price has already increased about $80. Maybe those preditions of a US$0.95 Canadian dollar will come true... Even if I don't buy a Westy it could be beneficial for those new Mac purchases... assuming the C$ rise isn't because of the US$ falling.

In the meantime, the reviews of the 42" Westinghouse continue to trickle in. It seems that the colours are pretty good and the black level isn't bad either. Again, reports are that the top end LCD TVs are probably better, but in all honesty, last I checked in the stores I was quite impressed by the mid-range TVs. Yeah, the Sonys rocked, but I felt I'd be happy with the mid-range TVs too, at least given the huge price savings. The really low end LCD TVs sucked though.

Back to the initial reviews of the Westy... Corner light bleeding doesn't seem to be an issue so far. The adjustability of the colour settings on the Westy isn't the greatest though. Nobody knows of any service menu, so that's not an option either. I look forward to someone testing a Mac mini and Xbox 360 on it.

As for the Sharp, I am a little unclear on this, but it seems that the 45" 1080p model will not be making an appearance in North America, even though it apparently is already available in Japan if I understand the forum posts correctly. A lot of the Sharpies on the TV forums are pissed about this. Sony Bravia may just get a new batch of converts.

[theonlyken]

Originally Posted by F*ckDell

Ahhh... I see, I see... so using the Mini's HDD to record live TV is a possibility...

Thanks for the clarification!

It is. However, Elgato's EyeTV which is the software used by both Elgatos and Miglia for their HD tuners isn't yet Universal Binary. And according to El GAto, using Rosetta, you'll only get quarter resolution for 720p content. There's no firm date for a UB version.

On the bright side, I've been playing with a Dual Core mini and it plays the 1080p Quicktime trailers at full reolution beautifully. Apple's official position is that the Core Duo will play 1080p but the Core Solo will only play 720p. Although, last time I checked, the system requiremenst on the QT HD page on APple's website called for a 1.83GHz Core Duo for 720p.

[Eug Wanker]

Well, Apple does recommend a G5 1.8 for 720p, and lists 1280x720 @ 30 fps. That's significantly higher amounts of data than the usual 720p clip. Furthermore, a G5 1.8 is faster than a Core Solo 1.5. Perhaps Apple is just being overly conservative, cuz a Core Duo 1.66 should be fine for pretty much all 720p, and most 24 fps 1080p too. Also, maybe part of it is that Apple simply hasn't updated the page, cuz at the time they added the Core Duo stuff, the Intel Mac mini didn't exist.

[mduell]

Sharp released a 37" 1080 (no word on i or p) LCD today.

[Eug Wanker]

The Sharp 37" supports 1080p. However, I want a 42"+, and the 45" 1080p computer-compatible model inexplicably is not being released in North America.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

the 45" 1080p computer-compatible model inexplicably is not being released in North America.

Is that within your price range?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

Is that within your price range?

It's over my price range, and it's a bit big for what I want too. 40-42" is the size I'm looking for.

[F*ckDell]

Originally Posted by mduell

Sharp released a 37" 1080 (no word on i or p) LCD today.

"This LCD-TV is different. It can display the full HD progressive resolution and, according to the company, is perfect for viewing the soon-to-come HD channels and HD-DVD or Blu-ray disc movies.

soooo that would mean its 1080p... right?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by F*ckDell

"This LCD-TV is different. It can display the full HD progressive resolution and, according to the company, is perfect for viewing the soon-to-come HD channels and HD-DVD or Blu-ray disc movies.

soooo that would mean its 1080p... right?

Sharp does have a new 1080p 37" model that is due out in a couple of months. I believe that must be the same TV, but I'm not 100% sure.

BTW, it seems like the Westy 42" suffers from a lockup bug that is similar to what some Sony TVs had:

I hesitate to say that it locked up because the picture was still being displayed properly but the monitor refused to respond to both my remote and to the control buttons of the side of the unit. This has happened twice now.

It happened to me again yesterday afternoon so I decided to call tech support. The guy that I spoke to said that this usually happens when the set is plugged into a surge protector with several other things, which of course mine was.

So for now, I've moved it off to its own circuit to see if this resolves my issue.

PS. Even westinghouse's tech support rocks - I was on the phone < 5 minutes.

Hmm, the lockup has happened to me twice now too. Neither the original remote or my D*TV Tivo remotes would turn the set on. Only unpluging and repluging worked. My D*HD Tivo and my DVD player are on this circuit. I'm going to add a UPS to the set up today to see if that has an impact.

I can't find a link anymore to info on that Sony bug though. Anyone know more about it?

That surge protector statement for the Westy seems odd to me.

[F*ckDell]

I personally wouldn't buy a Westy... I mean, if your going to spend all that money on a product, I would want a name brand. I just got back from a local Circuit City and the guys there said Sharp should be coming out with one soon. I originally thought 37' would be to small for me, but after checking out other 37 inchers... plenty big. Would a Mac Mini work well on a 1080i? Thats one of the questions the guys at the store had for me.

[Eug Wanker]

If you plan on using a Mac mini for 1080, only get one that supports 1080p.

P.S. I was in a store today checking out a 1080p rear projection setup with Windows MCE. Not so great. Rear projection + 1080p computer screen = slight fuzziness, and I don't like MCE much either.

As for the name brand thing, I hear ya, but FWIW, Westinghouse is Chi Mei's retail arm for their LCD panels, some of which IIRC are used by Apple.

I'm definitely not get this iteration of the Westy, but if they correct the lockup problem (like Sony did with their TVs), I'd strongly consider it given the price and reported picture quality. It'd be nice if I could actually see one in action though. They sell them in Best Buy in the USA, but not in Best Buy in Canada.