[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

When I first heard about the iPod I was completely in love with the idea. As I have 3 computers with MP3's I wanted to make sure that they all have the same number of MP3's on them.

As I encode some songs on the computer at work, some on my iBook and some on my home system I thought this would be a great way to make sure they are all up to date and to transfer files.

I read the Apple PDF on the iPod and it was very clear that you could only sync with one computer and manually update it with other ones.
This was fine by me.

Now it seems that Apple had changed the Read Me saying that you cannot transfer any songs to other computers other then ONE. This completely defeats the purpose of the iPod for me and I am very disappointed.

I am not sharing Music with others. I am putting MY music on MY computers.

I will no longer be getting an iPod.

From MacFixIt today:
Apple has posted a "version b" revision to the iPod FAQ file (this is the new link). There are several minor changes in the new version - and at least one quite significant one:


The original version states: "You can also choose to transfer music to iPod manually. This enables you to drag and drop songs and playlists between iTunes and iPod, transferring music from one place to the other...To transfer music between your computers, or to add songs to iPod from both systems, you can selectively drag and drop songs, albums, or playlists between iPod and either computer using the manual update mode."

The revised version changes this to: "You can also choose to transfer music to iPod manually. This enables you to drag and drop songs and playlists from iTunes to iPod...Synchronization only occurs in one direction, from your Mac to your iPod. This means you cannot transfer music, automatically or manually, from your iPod to a computer, and you cannot use iPod to copy a music library from one computer to another."


Bottom line: You will not be able to use the iPod to "share" music with other users. Apple had previously been sending some mixed signals on this subject. It now looks like they are all on the same page.

[jgm50d]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you should be able to use the portable hard drive ability of iPod to do this, just not using the auto sync with iTunes. There has to be a work around and somebody will find it.

[Petter]

Originally posted by jgm50d:
<STRONG>Correct me if I'm wrong but you should be able to use the portable hard drive ability of iPod to do this, just not using the auto sync with iTunes. There has to be a work around and somebody will find it.</STRONG>

Yeah you're right, this is something done to avoid criticism from copyright owners i guess...
So Apple can say - we are doing something anyway!

[tanhauser]

I don't know why this is such a big issue for you. It was very clear from the start that Apple wanted to impose some sort of Copy Protection scheme, and it seems only fitting to do so.

Personally I have no porblem with that, as I only keep my Mp3 library on my G4 at home, and none on my PB G3 at work. You can always copy the files manually to the FireWire HD if you want, you just wont be able to synch computers automatically.

But think about this first before you cry foul, Apple needs to implement this scheme if they want to keep the Recording Industry happy, otherwise they would be making it extremely easy for people to share whole Mp3 libraries, you may not be sharing music with others, but others might...

If we all want the iPod to be a success then we NEED this CP scheme, and that's the bottom line. The fact that you can only synch one-way does not preclude the intrinsic value of the iPod, it is still an amazing little piece of technology.

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

Ok, I must say that this sig is even stranger then mine.

[tanhauser]

Hahaha... ah what can I say, I was basking in the sunshine of the Norwegian fjords.

It was a good day...

[nana2]

Originally posted by tanhauser:
<STRONG>I don't know why this is such a big issue for you. It was very clear from the start that Apple wanted to impose some sort of Copy Protection scheme, and it seems only fitting to do so.

....

But think about this first before you cry foul, Apple needs to implement this scheme if they want to keep the Recording Industry happy, otherwise they would be making it extremely easy for people to share whole Mp3 libraries, you may not be sharing music with others, but others might...
</STRONG>

Innocent until proven guilty? Or if you believe the RIAA, guilty by default until proven innocent. Think different? I don't think so.

[Petter]

Originally posted by nana2:
<STRONG>

Innocent until proven guilty? Or if you believe the RIAA, guilty by default until proven innocent. Think different? I don't think so.</STRONG>

If RIAA was in charge there would be a royalty fee on speakers, headphones, monitors and harddrives due to you can show, play and share copyrighted material on those items...

RIAA owns you!

[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: Petter ]

[zjokke]

OK, the iPod looks great, is FireWire, and iTunes compatible, but if Apple would make it too difficult to copy MP3's from the iPod to different Mac's, they Could lose a lot of market-share. There already was a 'USB kind of iPod': the Archos Jukebox 6000. The major advantage of the iPod is it's integration with iTunes (of course, FireWire is much better than USB, but if you could copy the files by using the iPod as a FW-disk, what's the point of dissabling this feature in iTunes?).

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

Originally posted by zjokke:
<STRONG>OK, the iPod looks great, is FireWire, and iTunes compatible, but if Apple would make it too difficult to copy MP3's from the iPod to different Mac's, they Could lose a lot of market-share.</STRONG>

They have already lost one sale. Mine.

[Hornet]

The question is, so they changed the readme, but have they removed this feature?

Surely apple would like to publically push they are supporting the RIAA (whores) and all, but I would be interested to see how it REALLY works when it comes out

Don't forget the iPod can be hacked, I'm sure that'll be a simple, quick "update" released soon

Doesn't bother me one bit though, I'm single-firewire mac here (G4). If I needed to transfer music, I could bung it on the firewire "side" of the hdd and there she goes.

I would also like to see a hack that enables the firewire disk to see the contents of the itunes "folder" on the drive! That would be great.

[zac4mac]

Could be something as simple as file visibility.

I can't imagine that it is a partition scheme, that would be hard or impossible to do on the fly I think.

One of the first things I'll check when mine arrives.

[John B. Smith]

that'd be nice if you could plug one ipod to another and transfer songs back and forth... too bad it'll never happen

There is some confusion about whether the iPod can be used to steal music. As the iPod is configured at the moment, the answer is absolutely yes. You can load songs from one Mac onto an iPod, and then dump those songs onto another Mac -- or onto several other Macs.
.....
So Apple has made it a bit tricky to use the iPod to swap songs between two Macs -- but only a bit. I did it by turning off the automatic synching feature on my home machine and dragged songs onto the iPod. I then connected the iPod to someone else's iBook. That iBook already had iTunes 2 installed, and had already been linked to another iPod.

The iBook noted that this was not the usual iPod, and asked if I wanted to wipe all the songs off the iPod and start over. I said no. But the iBook recognized my iPod anyway, and let me drag songs off of the iPod and into the iBook.

It is unfair to criticize Apple for allowing such swapping. Any FireWire-equipped hard drive can do the same thing -- arguably in a more straightforward manner.
http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/ne...ipod102501.htm

[BobVB]

Originally posted by zjokke:
<STRONG>OK, the iPod looks great, is FireWire, and iTunes compatible, but if Apple would make it too difficult to copy MP3's from the iPod to different Mac's, they Could lose a lot of market-share. There already was a 'USB kind of iPod': the Archos Jukebox 6000. The major advantage of the iPod is it's integration with iTunes (of course, FireWire is much better than USB, but if you could copy the files by using the iPod as a FW-disk, what's the point of dissabling this feature in iTunes?).</STRONG>

To try and stay compliant with the The Audio Home Recording Act OF 1992 and therefore be protected by lawsuits from the RIAA and other similar groups.

From reading the Archos web page, it seems they are most definitely NOT in compliance with the AHRA and so I wonder why they haven't been slapped with a copyright infringement lawsuit by the same groups? Maybe because they are not based in the US?

But regardless, Apple is a US-based, high-profile corporation and if they weren't at least compliant on paper you can bet the they would be the recipients of a high profile lawsuit - not good for business.

I am sure someone will figure out a work around, and at the very least, you can just install 2.5 gigs, and then copy those same files to the hard drive for 'dispersion'.

[nana2]

Originally posted by BobVB:
<STRONG>

To try and stay compliant with the The Audio Home Recording Act OF 1992 and therefore be protected by lawsuits from the RIAA and other similar groups.
</STRONG>

From your link:
"Multipurpose devices, such as a general computer or a CD-ROM drive, are not covered by the AHRA. This means that they are not required to pay royalties or incorporate SCMS protections. It also means, however, that neither manufacturers of the devices, nor the consumers who use them, receive immunity from suit for copyright infringement."

The iPod is certainly a multipurpose device, therefore doesn't fall under the act, also unlike a DAT recorder an MP3 is hardly a pristine digital copy.

[BobVB]

Originally posted by nana2:
<STRONG>

From your link:
"Multipurpose devices, such as a general computer or a CD-ROM drive, are not covered by the AHRA. This means that they are not required to pay royalties or incorporate SCMS protections. It also means, however, that neither manufacturers of the devices, nor the consumers who use them, receive immunity from suit for copyright infringement."

The iPod is certainly a multipurpose device, therefore doesn't fall under the act, also unlike a DAT recorder an MP3 is hardly a pristine digital copy.</STRONG>

Couple thoughts on this:

One: Compliance with the AHRA just makes you immune to lawsuits, it doesn't make you do anything as your last sentence seems to imply. So yes, a company can make noncompliant music devices, its just they are then open to lawsuits for copyright infringement if someone wants to file it. Apple may have decided that they don't want to take that risk therefore wants to be in compliance with the AHRA.

Two: As to the iPod™ being a multipurpose device, again, it may be - as the article says each new device has to be evaluated individually - but it is being marketed at an music player so the decision would be up in the air - remember it is to Apple's advantage to be considered covered by the AHRA. They want to leave the RIAA no opening to even initiate a lawsuit as just the legal battle could suck all the profit out of the iPod™ venture, let alone a loss and judgement.

Oh and finally, since the iPod™ plays AIFF files it is definitely capable of 'pristine' play back of digital media, and it was threats of RIAA lawsuits that delayed the 'merely MP3' initial Rio so that it could become in compliant with the AHRA.

By Apple's taking care to keep the iPod™'s audio player features 'at arm's length' from the HD functions it makes them discrete and arguable that they fall under the AHRA, and would enjoy the desired immunity from lawsuits.

And, of course, they don't want to piss off the music community by doing anything less either. I know that when I did Demo Days last holiday season, these guys who were part of some famous grunge band that I didn't know (they were a bit miffed) came by several times looking at what MP3 files I had out on the demo models and making sure that all the files had been 'royalty paid'. It wouldn't be in Apple's best interest to let their player support 'copies of copies' even if it didn't have legal benefits in doing so.

But since I thought the FAQ was a misspeak anyway I'm not disappointed. (but then I only keep MP3's on one computer anyway so its not an issue for me.)

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

It seems that it is even more of a pain then I first thought. Not only can you not copy them but the files are HIDDEN!

From MacFixIt:

"It is possible to transfer 'installed' music from the iPod to a computer. You are correct that you can't do it through iTunes directly, but after mounting the disk as a FireWire drive, find the invisible folder the player software stores the music in. Just use the terminal or ResEdit to make the folder visible and use the Finder to move the files."

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
<STRONG>It seems that it is even more of a pain then I first thought. Not only can you not copy them but the files are HIDDEN!

From MacFixIt:

"It is possible to transfer 'installed' music from the iPod to a computer. You are correct that you can't do it through iTunes directly, but after mounting the disk as a FireWire drive, find the invisible folder the player software stores the music in. Just use the terminal or ResEdit to make the folder visible and use the Finder to move the files."</STRONG>

So what's the problem here? Just "show all files" in OS X, Find the hidden folder, uncheck the option, and it shows up as a normal folder for all your music copying needs. This is much BETTER not WORSE!

Disregarding copyright issue, I find that Apple has forced everyone using iPod the way they want it to be used.

As a iBook 500 user with only 10G hard drive to spare, I cannot afford to put all my tunes in iBook and sync them with iPod. Instead, I like to put all my tunes in iPod, and only use iTune 2.0 to organize the playlists.

However, according the interview which iPod product manager gave to Macworld.com, it does not work that way. Even I copy all the tunes to iPod using Firewire disk mode, iPod won't recognize it as tunes in its own music library but just data. If I sync the playlists with iPod, iTunes will erase all my songs in iPod since it cannot find the tunes on my local iBook.

Apple wants everyone to "Think Different". Maybe this time they have to think differently.

DISCLAIMER: I saw an iPod at Apple store this Sunday, which indeed a nice piece of hardware in the market. However, Apple needs to consider all different legitimate uses of the iPod. Apple won't get my businees this time. Maybe I will reconsider it as rev. B is coming out.

[mithral]

Originally posted by &lt;JBC&gt;:
<STRONG>
As a iBook 500 user with only 10G hard drive to spare, I cannot afford to put all my tunes in iBook and sync them with iPod. Instead, I like to put all my tunes in iPod, and only use iTune 2.0 to organize the playlists.
</STRONG>

The new FAQ (see MacNN front page) indicates that you CAN just "drag & drop" new songs onto the iPod through iTunes. You have three options:

1. Automatically sync everything
2. Synch and update certain playlists
3. Manually sync selected files

If you choose option 3, then it appears that you could free up the 5 gigs on your iBook, and add new songs as you "acquire" them.

Maybe I'm misreading this. Check it out for yourself.


-mithral

Originally posted by mithral:
<STRONG>

The new FAQ (see MacNN front page) indicates that you CAN just "drag & drop" new songs onto the iPod through iTunes. You have three options:

1. Automatically sync everything
2. Synch and update certain playlists
3. Manually sync selected files

If you choose option 3, then it appears that you could free up the 5 gigs on your iBook, and add new songs as you "acquire" them.

Maybe I'm misreading this. Check it out for yourself.


-mithral</STRONG>

I still don't see how that works. I went to Apple store to hope to get an answer before I place the order. The Apple store employee couldn't answer my question either.

Actually, I like someone who is lucky enough to own one iPod to try it for me, but it might be too much to ask.

1. How do I import songs from CD directly to iPod without saving tunes to my iBook first ? (Use Firewire disk mode ? But Apple said the tunes saved in disk mode are separate from iPod music mode).

2. Even I have to save the MP3 tunes first to iBook, then drag them to iPod. How do I create an playlist directly from tunes in iPod, and transfer the playlist only to iPod ? (Considering I have freed up my disk space in iBook by removing all the tunes).

Apple uses iBook as a digital hub in most of the iPod ads; however they never thought of original iBook only coming with 10G hard drives. Who in hell keeps more than a few gigs of MP3 in they iBook without filling up their hard drive fast ? Syncing iPod with iMac or PowerMac probably makes more sense since they get bigger hard drives.

Sorry for the whining. But again, I really like to get one iPod if I can rationalize the purchase and practical use of it.

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

Originally posted by &lt;Rev&gt;:
<STRONG>

So what's the problem here? Just "show all files" in OS X, Find the hidden folder, uncheck the option, and it shows up as a normal folder for all your music copying needs. This is much BETTER not WORSE!</STRONG>

Where is "show all files" in OSX?

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
<STRONG>It seems that it is even more of a pain then I first thought. Not only can you not copy them but the files are HIDDEN!

From MacFixIt:

"It is possible to transfer 'installed' music from the iPod to a computer. You are correct that you can't do it through iTunes directly, but after mounting the disk as a FireWire drive, find the invisible folder the player software stores the music in. Just use the terminal or ResEdit to make the folder visible and use the Finder to move the files."</STRONG>

there are also a half-dozen shareware utilities for OS 9 that will make hidden or "invisible" files or folders, into visible/unhidden ones. TinkerTool will do it in OS X if you're not anxious to be a Terminal jockey.

Go to Version Tracker and search for invisible or hidden, either in OS X section or OS 9 section. If the only "security" is a hidden folder (great coverage of this on mac observer today), then there will be no problems using this device to its fullest potential

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

Originally posted by FormerLurker:
<STRONG>

there are also a half-dozen shareware utilities for OS 9 that will make hidden or "invisible" files or folders, into visible/unhidden ones. TinkerTool will do it in OS X if you're not anxious to be a Terminal jockey.
</STRONG>

Trust me, I know it can be done. I am just upset that it is such a pain in the ass. No other MP3 player does this. Even in you can take files out this way can you put them in or will iTunes ignore them?

[ARENA]

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
<STRONG>

Trust me, I know it can be done. I am just upset that it is such a pain in the ass. No other MP3 player does this. Even in you can take files out this way can you put them in or will iTunes ignore them?</STRONG>

Why would iTunes ignore them?
After you make them visible, they're just regular MP3 files.
I am sure you can import them to youy iTunes library without problemes.

I love the iPod, but when i read about this limitation i wasn't happy; It's good to know that the files uploaded from iTunes, are just hidden in the iPod HD.

[jgm50d]

it's simple...

1. connect ipod to the computer that has the mp3s you want
2. put the mp3s on the ipod using its firedisk mode
3. pull the mp3s off the ipod onto your computer
4. add them to your iTunes library
5. sync your ipod

voila! you have pirated mp3s. how hard was that?

[hardcat1970]

read this article and picture as well.
http://www.macobserver.com/article/2001/10/29.4.shtml