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one09jason · Mar 23, 2002, 08:22 AM

Hey all, do any of you that have the 17" studio LCD notice that the pinstripes in OSX are faded and washed out? I upgraded from the 15" studio LCD and the first thin I noticed was that the pinsripes in the menu bar were gone - it just looked grey. So what's the problem, good riddance, right? The problem is that that means that it's difficult to distinguish white from grey on this display - that's a big problem if you're a designer like me. I took back the display and exchanged it for another - same thing. Do any of you notice a lack of contrast in your 17" LCDs? Can you see the stripes in your OSX menu bar?

BTW, I'm on a PM G4 733, digital audio - has the first gen of nvidia graphics card.

mdcarter1 · Mar 23, 2002, 09:51 AM

I see the stripes fine on mine. They are very light, but they are there. Maybe you need glasses? :-)

Guy Incognito · Mar 23, 2002, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by one09jason:
Hey all, do any of you that have the 17" studio LCD notice that the pinstripes in OSX are faded and washed out? I upgraded from the 15" studio LCD and the first thin I noticed was that the pinsripes in the menu bar were gone - it just looked grey. So what's the problem, good riddance, right? The problem is that that means that it's difficult to distinguish white from grey on this display - that's a big problem if you're a designer like me. I took back the display and exchanged it for another - same thing. Do any of you notice a lack of contrast in your 17" LCDs? Can you see the stripes in your OSX menu bar?

BTW, I'm on a PM G4 733, digital audio - has the first gen of nvidia graphics card.

If you were a real designer, you probably would have known that CRT monitors handle colors much better than LCD displays. Why a designer would choose an LCD display over a CRT monitor is beyond me.

one09jason · Mar 23, 2002, 12:14 PM

If you were a real designer, you probably would have known that CRT monitors handle colors much better than LCD displays. Why a designer would choose an LCD display over a CRT monitor is beyond me.

...because I'm a web designer, and the screen IS the medium that web designers produce for. Many people do surf the web with computers with LCD displays, so how colors appear on LCDs is directly relevant. If you were really responding to my original post, you'd own or use a 17" Studio LCD, and you'd know that it has color reproduction and contrast very close to that of a CRT. Thanks for being so helpful and constructive, smart*ss.

mac freak · Mar 23, 2002, 12:37 PM

You are running at the native resolution of 1280x1024, right? If you're running something else, things could get funky...

Mac Zealot · Mar 23, 2002, 05:07 PM

My first suggestion is to go into monitor system preferences, choose color caliberation, and adjust the gamma all the way to the right.

This seems to get the LCD almost exactly at the same screen quality as a CRT, and much sharper too

BTW: my cinema display shows these things fine.. perhaps you've got the color caliberation wrong or something? They like to be very bright atfirst

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: Mac Zealot ]

chris v · Mar 23, 2002, 06:18 PM

I run my 15 inch LCD at about 1/4 brightness. (set in Displays Preference Pane) Maybe you just need to turn it down a little? Definitely run through Display Calibration (App in the Utilities folder in OS X) with the expert button checked.

CV

danbrew · Mar 23, 2002, 06:21 PM

The Apple LCDs do an awesome job of color reproduction - the best I've seen. It may be a gamma issue on your display - check out the calibration routine in the control panel. It's not a calibration in the true sense as it is a digital monitor, but the gamma and white point setting make a huge difference as to the output on the display.

CubieDubbie · Mar 23, 2002, 06:31 PM

Ok,
your right about the color problem with any LCD screen really. Having 3 iBooks and a couple of LCD screens, I most likely could have told you this before you bought your new monitor. This is exactly why I use CRT's for designing, Graphics. The LCD have slower redraws also!!!! Sadly I use the two that I have as second monitors anyway. Mostly by the two reasons I just gave you!!!!!

one09jason · Mar 23, 2002, 07:05 PM

The display is set to Gamma 1.8, White Point 6500K, resolution 1280 x 1024. I bought the display from an Apple retail store. I noticed that the the displays on the G4s at the front of the store don't have this problem when set with the same settings. I returned my display for a replacement, but the replacement is no better. So, do these displays have this problem, and does Apple just put the best ones at the front of the store, OR, did I just get two bu, units in a row by coincidence. I can't figure it out. I'd like to know what's normal for this LCD display, which is why I'm asking you all. I mention the OSX pinstripes n the menubar, because it's an obvious example of contrast, and easy to find. What should I do?

one09jason · Mar 23, 2002, 07:21 PM

Ok,
your right about the color problem with any LCD screen really. Having 3 iBooks and a couple of LCD screens, I most likely could have told you this before you bought your new monitor. This is exactly why I use CRT's for designing, Graphics. The LCD have slower redraws also!!!! Sadly I use the two that I have as second monitors anyway. Mostly by the two reasons I just gave you!!!!!

See, that's just it. I am upgrading from a 15" LCD Studio display, which DOES NOT have this problem. Neither does the LCD in my PowerBook G4. So, you see, the problem is: what am I experiencing - bad coincidence, or bad display design?

superfula · Mar 23, 2002, 07:45 PM

I was checking out the lcd displays at CompUSA today and I noticed this same thing. I first used the 17inch. didn't really notice any problems. but then I went to the 15inch lcd and then to the new imac. Man what I difference. The color was much better...I could see the pinstripes much clearer on the 15inchers than on the 17inch. Then I check out the new 23inch lcd they had there. Same thing...could see the pinstripes clearly, etc.

The max resolution was set on the 17inch. the colors looked more washed out on the 17inch. Course I didn't mess with the color settings or the gamma. I'm thinking of getting a 17inch lcd with a G4, but if that is the consistant color on all of them, I won't get it. anyone else notice a color/pinstripe difference between the 17 and 15?

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: superfula ]

gunnar · Mar 23, 2002, 08:04 PM

I "calibrated" my TiBook screen and found that it increased the contrast quite a bit. The pinstripes were nearly invisible compared to the Color LCD generic profile. Now, this could be perceptual because I think the max white and max black are always the same on an LCD if your brightness is at max but it certainly reduced my grey levels. I've since gone back to the generic profile because I find the midtones more important to my Web work. It's a bit harder on the eyes because of the lower contrast but you can actually SEE the greys. I haven't seen the 17" screen but the 15" and iMac are excellent, far better than my TiBook.

cowerd · Mar 23, 2002, 09:49 PM

if you want to see the pinstripes set the gamma to uncorrected when you recalibrate the monitor.

one09jason · Mar 23, 2002, 10:22 PM

if you want to see the pinstripes set the gamma to uncorrected when you recalibrate the monitor.

I've tried that, it does help. What does it mean to use the "native" gamma? The native gamma on my 15" Studio LCD was 1.8. Why is it so much higher for the 17" display (2.3)?

VanToffler · Mar 24, 2002, 02:14 AM

If you were a normal well adjusted person, you wouldn't lash out people like this.

Small dick? Mother never validated your value as a human being? What the hell is your problem?

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:


If you were a real designer, you probably would have known that CRT monitors handle colors much better than LCD displays. Why a designer would choose an LCD display over a CRT monitor is beyond me.

raferx · Mar 24, 2002, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by VanToffler:
If you were a normal well adjusted person, you wouldn't lash out people like this.

Small dick? Mother never validated your value as a human being? What the hell is your problem?

Ditto, good call VanT...that's BS, talk like that from helps no one, and makes the talker look ignorant, and worse, stops new members from wanting to post. All questions are welcome here! These forums are for members, and members are what make these forums so great. LCD's rock the house. Too bad one09jason is having problems with his. I have the 17' LCD, and found that after adjusting the color profile, it was flawless, BTW I design for motion graphics, Web, and TV... I'll take my LCD over any CRT.

[ 03-24-2002: Message edited by: raferx ]

Cipher13 · Mar 24, 2002, 06:07 AM

CRT envy methinks

(to VanT and the above poster)

The 17" LCD is just... well... crap.

one09jason · Mar 24, 2002, 08:11 AM

I have the 17' LCD, and found that after adjusting the color profile, it was flawless, BTW I design for motion graphics, Web, and TV... I'll take my LCD over any CRT.

Hmm, what did you do to "adjust" it? As I mentioned I have the gamma set at 1.8, and the white point to 6500k. Are your white point and gamma set differently? Have you "adjusted" something else?

Thanks for your comments.

chris v · Mar 24, 2002, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by one09jason:


Hmm, what did you do to "adjust" it? As I mentioned I have the gamma set at 1.8, and the white point to 6500k. Are your white point and gamma set differently? Have you "adjusted" something else?

Thanks for your comments.

Where have you got the brightness set in the Displays Pref Pane? When I set mine up originally, I did some comparisons with files I'd worked with extensively on my CRT at work, and knew to be accurate for color-separation purposes, and ended up having to st my LCD to about 1/4 brightness on the slider. I think by default, the brightness is cranked all the way up, but with mine, it was totally washed out like that.

CV

one09jason · Mar 24, 2002, 09:45 AM

Where have you got the brightness set in the Displays Pref Pane?

Reducing the brightness seems to just dim the entire picture without affecting contrast. Changing the brightness does not make the white and grey pinstripes inthemenu bar more distinguishable from eachother. I'm starting to think that that's just how this 17" Studio LCD is. Thanks for the replies. Anyone else?

cube-dude · Mar 24, 2002, 09:51 AM

Topic: displays
Forum: Peripherals

Mac Zealot · Mar 24, 2002, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
CRT envy methinks

(to VanT and the above poster)

The 17" LCD is just... well... crap.

I'd take an LCD any day over a CRT, just because they're not archaic pieces of junk made in the early 1900's.

Old fashioned people in other countries..

michaelb · Mar 24, 2002, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
Old fashioned people in other countries..

Oh spare us the xenophobia! We have LCDs in Australia too! Cipher13 just likes the idea of needing glasses by the time he's old enough to drive. LCDs are much easier on the eyes, and this old fashioned person in another country wouldn't use anything else for reading text on.

Anyway, if you have any experience with using a DVIator to hook up either a Cinema Display or 17 incher to a PC, can you see my request at the bottom of this thread. Thanks.

raferx · Mar 26, 2002, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
CRT envy methinks

(to VanT and the above poster)

The 17" LCD is just... well... crap.

LCD vs CRT??? try working on both for 12-15 hours a day, and see which one lets you drive home from work without squinting or feeling disoriented. CRT's fry your eyes Cipher13, I had to use them for years when I was newspaper photog, and doing pre-press work. F*ck Quark (GO INDESIGN 2), and screw CRT's from now on, they take up ridiculous amounts of desk space, they weigh a ton, they suck power, and gobble up your eyes for dessert. LCD's are the ONLY way to go for long haul work. I pity everyone who has to work on a CRT, and anyone who says a CRT is better at handling color than an LCD is full of sh*t. (IMHO.)

PS. Man I missed posting yesterday!

one09jason · Mar 26, 2002, 09:23 PM

Well, I devised a test to sort out what's going on with the 17" LCD. After doing a little research, I learned that any decent display, LCD or CRT, should be able to show the difference between white, and 5% grey (very light grey) This test is usually part of most monitor test patterns. So using Photoshop, I created a test pattern of my own: a checkerboard pattern of alternating white and 5% grey squares, 16 pixels each, with the whole pattern being 1280 x 1024, the native resolution of the Apple 17" LCD. If this display were any good, I'd be able to see the checkerboard. When viewing the pattern in full screen mode (pattern the only thing on the screen), here's what I found: With the display set at 1.8 gamma and 6500k (standard macintosh design settings), I could see the checkerboard pattern in a blotchy pattern. In the middle of the screen, the pattern is most visible. 1-2" from all sides, the pattern was not visible. The top left area of the screen was especially bad, with most of the pattern invisible. This explains why the display seems washed out, and why the pinstripes are not visible in the toolbar. I tried the same test on my older 15" LCD Apple Studio display, and guess what? You can see the pattern everwhere on the screen, with no problem. Same with a PBG4.

So, there you have it! There's nothing that settings, calibration or adjustment can do to fix this problem, because each of these things affect all areas of the screen equally. There's nothing you can do change the evenness of the display's performance. Of course, I had to buy the display to find this out.

So the only question remaining is: are all Apple 17" LCD displays this way, or did I just get stuck with a bum unit? Well, consider this: I bought the display at an Apple retail store. I returned my display for another, thinking that this was irregular. The second unit was exactly the same. (Naturally, the display units in the store do not seem to have this problem, and the store manager was obstinate, insisting that my display was within "normal limits".)

Go Figure.