[Circa]

I heard that the lacie ones were good and also mitsibushu had a good one. What does everyone think? Oh and ya I want a very low dpi if possible. Any owners out there care to comment and if anyone knows any good info please do comment.

Thanks,
Circa

[Circa]

Maby I should also add my use for the display that I would like to purchase. I am going to be needing the screen space so that I can be more proficient in various graphics programs, and gaming is another factor. I want a huge screen and I want the best gaming experience possible. And it must be a flat one, I can't stand the curves on other moniters.

[Paulos]

Sony make an excellent 21 inch flat screen that you should definately look at. very expensive, however. Mitsubishi's generally use the same tubes as Sony but for quite a bit cheaper, so they are a good alternative. can't help you on any others.

The Mitsubishi screen is of far less quality than the Sony. Personally, I would recommend the Cinema Display, just cuz it looks so cool and it has that "wow" effect on people.

[spicyjeff]

Mitsubishi's generally use the same tubes as Sony

This is wrong. Mitsubishi manufactures their own tubes and are possibly Sony's largest competitor in this market. Just because the names are similar, Mitsubushi Diamatron tubes and Sony Trinitron tubes, doesn't mean they are the same.

[rambo47]

MacMall has some specials. Take a look at the Sony section. This Trinitron looks nice! We replaced a 19" monitor at work with a Sony 22" Flat Screen CRT that has a letter box aspect ratio and it is really sweet. Unfortunately its also about $2500.

------------------

iDisk: rseijas
Homepage: homepage.mac.com/rseijas

[Paulos]

"This is wrong. Mitsubishi manufactures their own tubes and are possibly Sony's largest competitor in this market. Just because the names are similar, Mitsubushi Diamatron tubes and Sony Trinitron tubes, doesn't mean they are the same."

OK, You are right, but they are very similiar technologies and you can usually get a diamondtron which looks almost as good as a trinitron for about half the price... in my experience.

[daydreamer]

i liked the 21inch crt apple made
but you can't find it anymore...

[exa]

Get an iiyama, excellent monitors... They use the Mitsubushi Diamondscan tube, which is naturally flat, unlike Sony's trinitron which is by definition curved. It is one hell of a monitor, you will not be dissappointed, get the iiyama visionmaster pro 510... you will not regret it, they make some of the best monitors.

If you are going to get a Mitsubishi tube anyway, I would suggest the Diamond Plus 200. I have shopped around quite a bit and was able to compare several side by side to this one and it is brighter and flatter than any of the others. I really am happy with mine.

Here's a valuable point to consider when thinking about buying from Apple. Apple's monitors only have a one year warranty. Sony & other 3rd party monitors have 3 years. You'll have to buy AppleCare to get that kind of warranty from Apple, so I would mostly recommend staying away from them as a monitor source unless you want one of the LCD panels.

In terms of recommendations, the G500 by Sony is very nice. We have several of it and the PS500 (previous model). Overall, all our Sonys have been good--I've had one PS500 die after 1 month of use, but Sony was pretty helpful with it (although it took them 2 shots to fix it permanently). First time, I had to pay shipping to them (yikes on a big monitor!) but the second time, they paid for it both ways and replaced the entire picture tube to cure the problem.

HTH,
Eric.

[m7]

For those who like Apples 21 inch monitor, it is my understanding that it has a Mitsubishi tube.

Currently using a Mitsubishi diamond Plus 200.
Running 1600x1200 at 85.0Hz.
This is perhaps the best monitor I have ever used. I am looking to purchase the 2040 or 2060.

Use Sony 19 and 21 inch monitors also and Mitsu is hands down the best.

[Frogger]

I was at a friend's the other day, he had two IBM flat monitors (21" I think), they were definitely using Sony tubes. I was impressed with the quality, but they were also striking because of the black enclosures. I had never seen flat CRT monitors before so I was impressed!

here's a link if interested http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/...amp;lang=en_US

[This message has been edited by Frogger (edited 04-16-2001).]

Look at the Sony GDM-F520 it has to be one of the sweetest monitors out there. This model replaces the GDM-F500. This is from the professional section of Sony products. Enter the name under the Sony web site search engine to find more info.

I bought myself an iiyama Vision Master Pro 510. It has all the specs you are after, and I'm very happy with it. You get the trinitron CRT, 3 yr warranty (!) and all that from a respectable manufacturer. I paid around $1.000 4 months ago.

[bugs]

.

I've used the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2020u for over a year. I have never seen a better quality display (not that I'm an expert). Unfortunately there isn't much support for Mac users. They promised a Mac version of the software that controls all the video parameters but finally admitted that it's never going to happen. I waited a year for acceptable drivers and still don't have full access to the potential of this device. My monitor is an orphan. Better to have a good product with support than a great one without. I recommend a call and email to tech support BEFORE you buy any significant product. Checking this forum is also a great idea.

.

After buying a TiBook, I went shopping for a high-res (20" viewable) monitor to run on my desktop at 1600x1200. I tried a Samsung 1200NF because I was so impressed with Samsung's 170MP LCD panel. The resolution of the CRT was nowhere near Samsung's claims. So I scoped out a couple of other large monitors used by graphic artists where I work (a Mitsubishi 2040u and an Apple Studio 21"). NONE of these large monitors delivers the spec'd resolution.

[Note: in a sense, manufacturers' specs aren't "wrong" because they aren't truly specifications. When they say "max resolution 2048x1840; recommended resolution 1600x1200" they aren't claiming anything that can be quantitatively verified. What you need to know is the specification for modulation transfer function (MTF) at the given resolution. That is, the contrast ratio between adjacent black and white lines at a give pitch. None of the professional reviewers (e.g., at c|net) use this spec, although it is the only measurement that is meaningful. The reviewers, and the customers, are letting monitor manufacturers get away with nebulous, misleading, and inflated "specifications".]

I made up my own stripe grid (in Adobe Illustrator) to test the horizontal resolution of several monitors. As I said above, none of the them could render an 800 line-pair pattern (horizontal pitch); in all cases the lines are washed together or disfigured by Moire distortion (this, after making exhaustive adjustments to the monitors' screen adjustment). I'd guesstimate the 800 line-pair modulation transfer function (MTF) at about 0-10%...basically useless. Even at 400 line pairs (required for 800x600 resolution) the MTF is only about 70%.

[Just for comparison, the Samsung 170MP, a 17" diagonal LCD panel, gives about 80% MTF at 640 line-pairs (what you would hope for in a monitor claiming 1280x1024 resolution). So my expectations aren't entirely unreasonable.]

There is one monitor I'd like to look at before I give up the search. Cornerstone apparently uses a DSP to correct for individual tube variations...And it costs about twice what other 21" monitors do, so maybe they deliver where others fail.

Summary: I suspect that 1600x1200 resolution is simply beyond the ability of a consumer product at the moment. So shop carefully...and skeptically.

[beverson]

I bought a Phillips 21" at work -- don't remember the specs, and I'm not there now so I can't give them to you. But it's worked really well for me so far.

Macworld magazine here in the US had reviews of 21+" CRTs in last month's publication (well, really probably April or May since they come out like a month or two early). Anyway, don't know if the story's online, but it was a helpful piece and what led me to get the Phillips.

[gunnar]

Something that doesn't seem to be mentioned here is calibration. The Sony's are undoubtedly great monitors but do not have native calibration or a cheap external calibration device. For the price premium one should consider this if they want accurate color over the lifetime of the monitor. If you want a little more functionality and a nearly identical picture quality check out the LaCie 22" Electron Blue II and the Blue eye calibrator. I have the 19" and it is a phenomenal monitor. Definitely the best Diamondtron implementation and a great next day exchange warranty. Excellent Mac support as well, easily better than Sony.

I have been using Mitsubishi monitors for a long time (and Mitsubishi televisions since-like-1985) and have always been impressed. Also worth note, I believe the Apple crt Studio Display (17") is a Diamondtron tube. Recently, however, NEC and Mitsubishi have merged their monitor production. I dont know if NEC used to manufacture their own tubes or not, but I believe Mitsubishi is now making all the tubes for both companies. some one can correct me on that if im wrong-i havent done any real research. I just noticed the the first generation of the cobranded monitors were identical to the last generation of Mitsubishi monitors.

Just what is a *naturally* flat screen? One that is flat as found in nature and not by any designs of Man?

Sony's Trinitron screens are flat on the vertical axis, and very slightly curved on the horizontal axis. The difference between Trinitron tubes and conventional tubes is readily apparent.

Sony's FD series is virtually flat in both directions, just like Mitsu's tubes. Neither of these are "naturally" flat. It's a direct result of engineering. The FD tubes are "by definiton", not to mention design, flat. Sony makes several different categories of monitors, so examine the screens carefully before you buy.

The LaCie electron blue is also "by definition" a flat screen monitor with a goregous picture.

[orque]

Originally posted by gunnar:
I have the 19" and it is a phenomenal monitor. Definitely the best Diamondtron implementation and a great next day exchange warranty.

I have had the 19" for nearly and year and a half and love it. Gorgeous colour, gorgeous monitor.

Some clarifcation is in order here. Diamontron is Mitsubishi's implementation of Sony's Trinitron. Sony invented Trinitron technology, and licensed it years later. However, they have not licensed the latest versions of the technology. The version of Trinitron that Mistubishi uses is essentially the same that Sony was using a few years ago.

I have personal experience with recent Sony and Mitsubishi monitors. There is no question that Sony has the better technology, it's quite visible if you compare the monitors side by side. Diamondtron tubes don't have consistent color or brightness across the entire screen, newer Sony's are superb.

But, if you aren't a graphics professional you might be perfectly happy with a Diamondtron tube. They aren't bad monitors, but Sony is the king (which is why so many companies license Trinitron technology).

[smart]

Hey bugs.

I'm thinking about buying a Mitsubihi 2020u, what features will i be missing without the drivers? Is it still worth buying? I'm getting it for a very good price.. =)

/Stefan

(I want to run OS X at 1600x1200)

As was stated earlier, the FD Trinitrons from Sony are gorgeous. I bought the F500 when it first came out, and have never been disappointed. I paid a premium price for it (compared to other 20-21" models): $1800.

And one more note: Trinitron and Diamontron are trademark names for Aperture Grille (vs. shadow mask) CRT technologies. Typically, the AG monitor will allow more light through and offer better color fidelity, which is why most of your "better" monitors use 'em!

However, there are still "crap" AG monitors. I have never seen a ViewSonic that wasn't blurry, and it looked like all of Dell's AG monitors came from them (also of poor quality).

LaCie's electron 22 blue is condensed spiffy! Plus, if you buy the blue eye calibrator the combo rocks. With the dual signal and hub, it is the perfect monitor for those with 2 workstations but not much deskspace. I use a Sony at work (some 22" model) it looks bad all fuzzy and bright (even at the lowest brightness) Oh well, it gets replaced when it goes off lease in a few days.

[JBracy]

"Some clarifcation is in order here. Diamontron is Mitsubishi's implementation of Sony's Trinitron. Sony invented Trinitron technology, and licensed it years later. However, they have not licensed the latest versions of the technology. The version of Trinitron that Mistubishi uses is essentially the same that Sony was using a few years ago."

Sorry, but that just ain't so. Mitsu licensed Trinitron and improved on it. They changed the shape of the pixels to increase the apparent resolution. It's not old Trinitron technology. If it was they would call it Trinitron.

The LaCie 22 Blur is a Mitsu 2040 Tube with LaCie modified Firmware which allows hardware calibration. We currently have 166 Macs using a combination of Sony, LaCie, Mitsu, and Barco, and by far the best is the Barco (color wise) but for a general monitor you can't beat the LaCie.

Originally posted by bugs:
I've used the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2020u for over a year. I have never seen a better quality display (not that I'm an expert). Unfortunately there isn't much support for Mac users. They promised a Mac version of the software that controls all the video parameters but finally admitted that it's never going to happen. I waited a year for acceptable drivers and still don't have full access to the potential of this device. My monitor is an orphan. Better to have a good product with support than a great one without. I recommend a call and email to tech support BEFORE you buy any significant product. Checking this forum is also a great idea.

Eh... what are you talking about? Mitsubishi has a downloadable control tool for the 2020u, 2040u, and a bunc of oothers on their web site, already up to v4.0.1. Access to all those minutiae via USB control. Sheesh...
http://support.necmitsubishi.com/mit...ntrol_usb.html

I have been selling Macs and most of the monitors mentioned for 17 years and I'm surprised at the amount of misinformation floating around here. Trinitron is Sony's trademark for their aperture grille monitor tube and DiamondTron is Mitsubishi's trademark for theirs. While both use aperture grille (as opposed to shadow mask) technology for the face of the tubes, both have developed their own implementations of the guns, electronics, etc.

ALL aperture grille monitor tubes are made by either Mitsubishi or Sony no matter who's name is on the plastic. All aperture grille displays are vertically flat which is the easiest way to determine if a monitor is an aperture grille unit. Mitsubishi was first out with a horizontally flat tube which is their NF (Natural Flat) tube, Sony followed with their FD (Flat Display?) tube which is "virtually flat". There is actually a very slight curvature on the Sony displays but it is so small that it is negligible.

I personally own the Mitsubishi DiamondPro 900U 19" NF monitor. It was the first flat monitor out and I am very happy with it. As someone else pointed out, Mitsubishi does indeed have Mac software to control the settings through USB on the monitors that have the USB ports built in (the DP900U, DP2040U

part of my reply got cut off so here is the remainder:

I personally own the Mitsubishi DiamondPro 900U 19" NF monitor. It was the first flat monitor out and I am very happy with it. As someone else pointed out, Mitsubishi does indeed have Mac software to control the settings through USB on the monitors that have the USB ports built in (the DP900U, DP2040U & DP2060U).

The monitors which have taken the highest ratings for over a decade have been based on various of the Mitsubishi tubes. The Radius PrecisionView were the tops for a number of years and the LaCie have taken their place since the demise of Radius. The LaCie Electron 22blue with the optional calibrator is the way to go if you need that level of color accuracy. Apple has used both Sony tubes (in their discontinued 21" units) and Mitsubishi tubes (in their current 17" Studio display).

Although I like the Mitsubishis better, Sony monitors are also excellent and you will find many who swear by them. The fact is that the state of adjustment can easily swamp any actual differences between these two so even a side by side comparison may not give you the real story unless both have been setup first by a qualified monitor technician. My own experience is that the Mitsubishis are slightly better. What really throws it toward Mitsubishi for me is that they are generally less expensive than the equivalent Sonys and they have an advanced exchange option in their warranty. If you choose this option, they will ship you a replacement monitor and you ship back your defective one.

If you stick with Mitsubishi, LaCie or Sony flat screen monitors you should be happy with the display, as long as you don’t expect to run at maximum rated resolution. Virtually none of the CRT based monitors on the market now will produce a quality image at the maximum rated resolution. Good luck.

[bugs]

Stefan,

The functionality of the Mitsubishi 2020u software seems to depend upon the serial number. Recent models might be OK due to changes in the circuitry. My current one was built in August 1999 and it allows me to view all the pattern tests, but not to adjust anything via software (I can do that via hardware switches but it is very clumsy).

I had two previous 2020u monitors that were returned due to defects. This one has the same defect to a lesser extent: the screen blacks out from time to time for a second or two. The return process in the USA was generous and very fast.

About 1600X1200: I did this for a few months, but even on this large screen text can be extremely small- especially web pages. Your young eyes may handle it better than mine, but be warned.

A comment on the technology: There is very sophisticated software and circuitry that allows the electron beam to appear to have the same precision in the distant corners that exists in the center of the screen. This may be the best way to judge modern large flat monitors if you work with text.

Originally posted by smart:
Hey bugs.

I'm thinking about buying a Mitsubihi 2020u, what features will i be missing without the drivers? Is it still worth buying? I'm getting it for a very good price.. =)

/Stefan

(I want to run OS X at 1600x1200)

[bugs]

Thanks for the tip KFJ,

I've had v4.0.1 for almost a year. It's pretty to look at but it doesn't work on my 2020u. Now the Windows software control version; well I'm sure that works fine. Facts of life, Jack. It's the price you pay for being a pioneer. I'd guess current models work fine with the Mac.

Originally posted by KFJ:
Eh... what are you talking about? Mitsubishi has a downloadable control tool for the 2020u, 2040u, and a bunc of oothers on their web site, already up to v4.0.1.