[Mars_999]

Ok people we have a start but we need anyone you know that wants a Mac thats a Pc user to help sign this thing to. Apple needs to see that their is possible PC converts involved to.

Get as many people as you can to sign this, only good can come of it and what does it hurt to have the option anyway?
http://www.petitiononline.com/ssapple/petition.html

Thanks

[Captain Obvious]

Not gonna happen, but arent there 3rd party sound cards that can do that for you? Anyway, if not try asking the makers of PC sound cards to find a way to modify them for Macs. Its a better option.

[fulmer]

could you give us a little more info before we waste our time on a click-through? How do you propose putting surround sound in a Mac? Good surround sound won't fit in any computer case, pc or mac--the best speakers are external.

[starman]

My God people, are ANY of you gamers?

PC gaming kicks Mac's ass. One of the reasons why is 5.1 audio. That's why I own a PC for gaming - Mac gaming sucks. Why do we need surround sound? Well, why should we STOP at stereo? In fact, let's go back to mono, eh? .

The Mac NEEDS 5.1 audio output to compete with PCs. I mean, here we are with great video cards, ass-kicking displays, some of the best hardware out there, but only stereo sound. If anyone has ever played UT on a PC where you can hear what's going on BEHIND you, you'll know what I mean. Creative Labs actually made a SoundBlaster Live! card for the Mac. I had it IN MY HANDS but I didn't buy it simply because there's no support for EAX in the games themselves except for Deus Ex and maybe one or two others.

5.1 audio is a gamer's necessity nowadays. With the PS2 and XBox supporting 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS, the GameCube supporting 5-channel Dolby Pro-Logic II, and the PC supporting almost everything under the sun via the SoundBlaster cards, why should Mac users be the low end of the totem pole?

Mike

[-Q-]

Originally posted by starman:
<STRONG>5.1 audio is a gamer's necessity nowadays. With the PS2 and XBox supporting 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS, the GameCube supporting 5-channel Dolby Pro-Logic II, and the PC supporting almost everything under the sun via the SoundBlaster cards, why should Mac users be the low end of the totem pole?</STRONG>

They're not. They simply buy an XBox or PS2. Using the best tool for the job and all that...

[starman]

They're not. They simply buy an XBox or PS2. Using the best tool for the job and all that...

Oh yeah, cuz we all know how good it is to play Unreal Tournament on a PS2 vs. a Mac.

Mike

[davidflas]

I'm very frustrated with this issue. I go into CompUsa, etc. and see pc soundcards with 5.1 sound for $99.00USD or less and I wish we Mac Users had something comperable at any price. If I didn't hate windows, and microsoft in general so much I might be wavering towardst the darkside at this point. I even bought one of the crappy soundlaster live! cards back when they were $149, just so I could enjoy Deus Ex more and have clearer sound on my other games/iTunes... I hope the rumors about better sound in future Macs, is something that happens sooner rather than later.

[cmoney]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
[QBBrief question:

Why the HELL should APPLE supply the 5.1 card or USB hardware!?

If you need 5.1, go out and BUY an interface!

And before you say that multi-channel audio isn't supported, OS X supports as many channels as you care to throw at it, at up to 32-bit resolution and any sample rate your CPU can handle.

Hey, I think I'll go out and start a petition for Apple to supply high-end scanner hardware. I think they should.

Duh.[/QB]

Now, now, don't be an ass. I agree, Apple shouldn't provide the hardware. And their petition is worded slightly wrong.

BUT, 5.1 audio is to multichannel audio like a square is to a rectangle. Supporting generic multichannel audio is well and good, but when they refer to "5.1" they're referring to support for any of the standard ways to transport multichannel audio into a receiver, including Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby Pro Logic II, etc.

Things like the DVD player in OS X don't support 5.1. I can't plug my Mac with a USB&lt;-&gt;Optical digital audio converter into a Dolby Digital receiver and expect the "Dolby Digital" light to turn on. There's no support built into OS X yet.

Multichannel audio support built-in to the OS through Core Audio is a great start. But Apple needs to continue to expand that to support 5.1.

Possible scenarios: A layer on top of OS X's Core Audio processes Dolby Digital audio. All apps send data to Core Audio and the Dolby Digital layer processes it before sending to digital outputs. &lt;b&gt;Third party hardware&lt;/b&gt; plugs into the USB or FireWire ports and provides S/P DIF optical or coax outputs. (I haven't studied Core Audio in depth but something like this should be possible under OS X and would provide modular support for when the next 7.1 standard like DTS/ES comes out.) Another approach would be for apps to send 6 audio streams to the USB/Firewire ports and a third party hardware box crunches the data into DD5.1. (There should still be a standard in Core Audio to let hardware devices know "this is left front, right front, etc.")

Anyway, obviously I haven't considered all the possibilities (like the fact that DVDs already have a Dolby Digital audio track and so Macs would simply have to stream it out the USB or FireWire ports and on to an optical or coax output) but simply stating that OS X supports as many channels of audio as you want isn't enough. That's great for something like the MOTU 828 FireWire Audio interface which allows you to input 8 independent audio channels. But someone needs to create a 5.1 layer on top of that. And it's probably best that Apple do it since they're intimately involved in Core Audio and it'd be nice not to have to rely on a third party solution like everybody did with MIDI on OS 9 and below (using OMS as the de facto standard).

[a holck]

There are some confution here:

- The DVD player.
It just need to pass off the already enchoded Dolby Digital or DTS datastream out the usb bus, there are already a standard for those formats over usb. You then need to buy an usb box to handle the audio further and creative actually makes such a box. There is no need to even bother to write in CoreAudio hooks, just to pass on the stream to the USB bus.

- Games.
We need a 3D Audio api like OpenAl or Direct3D.

The CoreAudio API has no tools for 3D positioning, reverbration, Refraction, and Dobbler FX (Pitch change depending on speed/direction)

Right now the developer has to create their own AudioFx engine to hook into CoreAudio. And all FX are of cause rendered in the CPU as there is no tools for passing such rendering onto a DSP (like Creatives cards or Nvidias nForce)

[milhous]

I think all Apple would need to do is offer a SPDIF optical out connection on the Macs like what is used to transfer audio onto Minidisc. The mac would then be able to directly interface with a 5.1 home receiver or similar device. That way, it can have a universal application not only for audio, but for possible future offerings.

If what we're hearing is correct, future generations of firewire may require an optical interface as opposed to a conventional copper carrier.

[Mars_999]

People, people, people, what we are after here is a Macintosh that can hook up to a B.A. 7500 speaker system which is 4.1 or a Klipsch 5.1 Promedia speaker system. If you desire a home theater surround sound hardware also. Yes OSX can and probably will have the software to do surround sound, but try and hook up an external system? NO GO! So thats why we are asking for a firewire or USB port option for iMac and Laptop users so they are not left out! PowerMac users such as myself will want a internal card. If Apple wants to down the road add this option to the new Macs motherboards fine by me. OpenAL is great, I would prefer that to be the audio standard on a Mac. Why well its pretty good and it is cross platform so porting of games would be quicker. OpenAL and OpenGL good combination. CoreAudio in OSX is probably good but doesn't do any good without the hardware. Not understanding people's problem with wanting to get the Mac to be able to use 5.1 Surround sound? YEAH IT CAN DO IT THROUGH THE SOFTWARE, WHO CARES WE NEED THE HARDWARE!!!!! GOD this is like reasoning with a 2year old. Feel like I am the only one out here with a desire for surround sound on my Mac? I sold my PC last Aug to buy my Mac, I was hoping by now I would have the option for surround sound. I can deal with the framerates, and less games on a Mac. But when you play Quake3 or UT and get your ass kicked due to someone sneaking up behind you forget it. Thats funny when people say "its not Apples fault, go get Creative to make one" what the FU!! ever. Thats like saying the USA has no control over what goes on in the world!!! Or the European Union has no power!! Yeah right. Apple has $4Billion in the bank spend $100 million and support your current users and possibly lure a way some Pc users who are holding out for that option. Hell my friend will not buy one until they have surround sound. So their is one sale for sure they are missing out on.

[cmoney]

Originally posted by Mars_999:
<STRONG>People, people, people, what we are after here is a Macintosh that can hook up to a B.A. 7500 speaker system which is 4.1 or a Klipsch 5.1 Promedia speaker system. If you desire a home theater surround sound hardware also. Yes OSX can and probably will have the software to do surround sound, but try and hook up an external system? NO GO! So thats why we are asking for a firewire or USB port option for iMac and Laptop users so they are not left out! PowerMac users such as myself will want a internal card. If Apple wants to down the road add this option to the new Macs motherboards fine by me. OpenAL is great, I would prefer that to be the audio standard on a Mac. Why well its pretty good and it is cross platform so porting of games would be quicker. OpenAL and OpenGL good combination. CoreAudio in OSX is probably good but doesn't do any good without the hardware. Not understanding people's problem with wanting to get the Mac to be able to use 5.1 Surround sound? YEAH IT CAN DO IT THROUGH THE SOFTWARE, WHO CARES WE NEED THE HARDWARE!!!!! GOD this is like reasoning with a 2year old. Feel like I am the only one out here with a desire for surround sound on my Mac? I sold my PC last Aug to buy my Mac, I was hoping by now I would have the option for surround sound. I can deal with the framerates, and less games on a Mac. But when you play Quake3 or UT and get your ass kicked due to someone sneaking up behind you forget it. Thats funny when people say "its not Apples fault, go get Creative to make one" what the FU!! ever. Thats like saying the USA has no control over what goes on in the world!!! Or the European Union has no power!! Yeah right. Apple has $4Billion in the bank spend $100 million and support your current users and possibly lure a way some Pc users who are holding out for that option. Hell my friend will not buy one until they have surround sound. So their is one sale for sure they are missing out on.</STRONG>

The hardware already exists. It exists in the Klipsch or BA speakers you mention, in the Yamaha CAVIT systems, in Edirol optical digital audio outputs. These already hook up via USB or FireWire and work with any Mac. What's more, with Apple pushing people towards USB for audio input, it's more likely that they'll go this same way for audio output.

What Apple needs to provide is the API and processing so developers can target surround sound. Without a standard, de facto or Apple provided, there will be no surround sound on Macs. You'll have different developers programming surround sound in their own way, if that's even possible with OS X's tight hold over hardware access.

[Mars_999]

Originally posted by cmoney:
<STRONG>

The hardware already exists. It exists in the Klipsch or BA speakers you mention, in the Yamaha CAVIT systems, in Edirol optical digital audio outputs. These already hook up via USB or FireWire and work with any Mac. What's more, with Apple pushing people towards USB for audio input, it's more likely that they'll go this same way for audio output.

What Apple needs to provide is the API and processing so developers can target surround sound. Without a standard, de facto or Apple provided, there will be no surround sound on Macs. You'll have different developers programming surround sound in their own way, if that's even possible with OS X's tight hold over hardware access.</STRONG>

Well if this hardware exists where can one but it than? I see no talk about some device that can hook up to a USB or Firewire port and give me front, rear, sub, center outputs so I can use my BA 7500 speaker system? Also don't really care for USB or Firewire since I have a PowerMac would rather have a plugin card. Oh yeah OpenAL is for Mac, and you need hardware that can use OpenAL from what I have been told.

[11011001]

Besides the Cavitt from Yameha is way to expensive. On the PC side I can do the same for like 200 or so...

I am not going to spend that much money, when I feel that things could change, no matter how fricken cool that Cavet thing is!!

[xyber233]

Are any of the newer games coming out on Mac going to have support for EAX? What games besides Deus Ex support it?

[Mars_999]

Westlake I think wanted to add in OpenAL for UT but decided not to since SBLIVE doesn't work all to great. And no support for it in OSX. OpenAL would be better than EAX IMO.

[gbvaughan]

here: http://www.edirol.com/products/info/ua3.html

The UA-3D specifically support 5.1 and DTS/Dolby digital. There store doesn't list it yet, but it's on the website, so hopefully it's coming soon.


gbvaughan

Originally posted by Mars_999:
<STRONG>

Well if this hardware exists where can one but it than? I see no talk about some device that can hook up to a USB or Firewire port and give me front, rear, sub, center outputs so I can use my BA 7500 speaker system? Also don't really care for USB or Firewire since I have a PowerMac would rather have a plugin card. Oh yeah OpenAL is for Mac, and you need hardware that can use OpenAL from what I have been told.</STRONG>

[hayesk]

Someone in the PowerMac forums also pointed out this:
Xitel Digital Hi-fi link