[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Brand awareness is irrelevant if it's not linked to a product. Blah.

Hell, even if you click directly on the Samsung Galaxy S II LTE, there is NO REFERENCE TO ANDROID except for a single badge buried in the "Features" tab (and, of course, the user reviews).

If it were relevant, you'd think they'd at least point it out in the "Overview" blurb on one of the flagship phones, no?

Lol. By clicking the features tab, There's an Android logo. Clicking that: "Android is unlike any mobile operating system you've used before."

http://www.rogers.com/web/link/wirel...27BLKR&N=52+11

Hell!

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Yes, and he said "it hurts".
Also, when he ranked the apps that were important to *him*, only 35% were available on Windows Phone. And, he also notes that the WP versions of some apps are terrible when compared with their Android versions (he specifically mentions Twitter).

... I'm wondering if you even read this post, beyond seeing only the 60% number that you were looking for.

Yes, I did read it. I don't care if he says it hurts. Imagine me posting things to the contrary of what I think? I do because I have a balanced view of things.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Its gone up slightly for two quarters at the end of the financial year when everyone is spending the rest of their budgets. "On the rise" remains to be seen.

Google is a very well-known brand, yes but Android phones are not plastered in Google logos and even if the OS was people just assume its a google toolbar like they have in IE or Firefox on their PC. I deal with end users trying to connect their devices up to email accounts and services on a daily basis, its what I do. Most of them don't even know what an OS is let alone what Android is let alone that it has anything to do with Google. Many of them don't even know what model of phone they have when I ask them, so please don't call me naive and foolish for stating something that I know is right and you only believe to be wrong based on the fact that you know Google made Android.

BS.

And the bottom line is, Windows is on the rise, contrary to your earlier assertion that it was declining.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I played with a Lumia 900 yesterday and I really wanted to love the whole experience, but I couldn't. I think that hardware design is brilliant. It's definitely one of the best on the market right now, if not the best. The only aspect of the design that I don't like are the cheap silver hardware buttons that seem to clash with the rest of the phone.

There are two major things though that I don't like about the Lumia 900, and Windows Phone 7 in general. The first is that the hardware limitation of a 800x480 screen is just too-low resolution these days, especially at 4.3". I have a 4" phone with qHD resolution, and I'm not about to go lower resolution at a higher screen size. The second is that Windows Phone 7 STILL has pretty much the same bugs now as it did when I had a HTC HD7 two years ago. IE still has issues with HTML5 heavy sites, still can't get fonts right, and a few other things. There are still hardly any apps at all worth using, and, one of what was supposed to be the biggest selling point of Windows Phone 7, Xbox gaming, has nothing. There are hardly even any major titles for the platform.

I really enjoyed using Windows Phone 7 when it first came out two years ago. It was lacking some major features, but I was willing to overlook those because of the promise and innovation that Microsoft had shown. I'm just getting frustrated that two years later, it still can, at times, feel like a beta product that isn't ready for primetime. Over the past two years, Android and iOS have grown considerably more refined. Android has been completely redesigned from the ground up with Ice Cream Sandwich, and it feels like a very, very mature product now. iOS has become incredibly refined, though in my opinion the design is dated. It reminds me of the Porsche 911 the year before it gets redesigned: it's as good as it gets, but you're ready for some change. I guess I had hoped that maybe Windows Phone 7 could be that change, since iOS really hasn't really had a redesign since 2007. I'm still waiting though for Windows Phone 7 to actually be good enough to use every day. Until then, I'm sticking with Ice Cream Sandwich.

Show me why there are hardly any Apps worth using at all. How could you even make that assertion on 60,000 plus Apps by standing at a kiosk for 15 minutes playing around? And how could you experience a bunch of bugs in the same time as well?

And it's technically not WP 7. It's WP 7.5. Tons of bugs fixed and I have no more an issue with IE than I do with mobile Safari.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Show me why there are hardly any Apps worth using at all. How could you even make that assertion on 60,000 plus Apps by standing at a kiosk for 15 minutes playing around? And how could you experience a bunch of bugs in the same time as well?

60,000 apps doesn't mean there are 60,000 good ones. Can you get Angry Birds Space on it? Can you get Draw Something? Can you get Words with Friends? Nope, and I'm willing to bet you haven't tried at all 60,000 either . And if you read what I wrote, I have an HD7. It doesn't have service right now so I only have NoDo, but how come every single issue I had while using the HD7 is still there on the Lumia 900? It's as if hardly any progress has been made in two years, which just seems inexcusable for a company like Microsoft. These are the best selling apps in the mobile marketplace and yet you can't get them at all on Windows Phone 7. And I didn't say I went to a kiosk and spent fifteen minutes with it. Microsoft sent 12 to my work for us to try out.

And it's technically not WP 7. It's WP 7.5. Tons of bugs fixed and I have no more an issue with IE than I do with mobile Safari.

I'm well aware of the version number, thanks, and the differences between 7 and Mango.
How come when I load up The Verge on IE and then on mobile Safari or Chrome Beta that the only browser that doesn't render the fonts properly is IE? Every single time.

Like I said, I think Windows Phone 7 has a lot going for it, but after two years of barely incremental updates, it can't really hold its own against iOS 5 or Ice Cream Sandwich. Just my two cents. Sorry if you don't agree.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

60,000 apps doesn't mean there are 60,000 good ones. Can you get Angry Birds Space on it? Can you get Draw Something? Can you get Words with Friends? Nope, and I'm willing to bet you haven't tried at all 60,000 either . And if you read what I wrote, I have an HD7. It doesn't have service right now so I only have NoDo, but how come every single issue I had while using the HD7 is still there on the Lumia 900? It's as if hardly any progress has been made in two years, which just seems inexcusable for a company like Microsoft. These are the best selling apps in the mobile marketplace and yet you can't get them at all on Windows Phone 7. And I didn't say I went to a kiosk and spent fifteen minutes with it. Microsoft sent 12 to my work for us to try out.



I'm well aware of the version number, thanks, and the differences between 7 and Mango.
How come when I load up The Verge on IE and then on mobile Safari or Chrome Beta that the only browser that doesn't render the fonts properly is IE? Every single time.

Like I said, I think Windows Phone 7 has a lot going for it, but after two years of barely incremental updates, it can't really hold its own against iOS 5 or Ice Cream Sandwich. Just my two cents. Sorry if you don't agree.

I'm sorry but I don't even know what an HD7 is. I use a Lumia 900 and Mango. I don't have the issues that you state here. What I'm curious about is... now that I'm fairly happy with WP, the Lumia 900 will support Windows 8. I wonder if you've had any sneak peeks at it? I haven't had time to really sign up as a dev and get into the platform... yet. But we're thinking about developing for WP.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Thats per handset. A maker has to pay M$ 3 times as much for WP7 as they do for Android. It may not be free but its significantly cheaper.

That's just licensing, most Android handset manufacturers customize Android, going as far as replacing the user interface. I wonder how much they spend per handset for that.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Lol. By clicking the features tab, There's an Android logo. Clicking that: "Android is unlike any mobile operating system you've used before."

http://www.rogers.com/web/link/wirel...27BLKR&N=52+11

Hell!

Way to go, repeating exactly what I said and acting like it supports your claim.

I mean, yeah—you click on some phone (the flagship phone, mind you), and the link that loads mentions NOTHING about Android. You actually have to click on "features" to get a single logo.

That's so in-your-face and penetrating, it seems like they're REALLY convinced that the "Google" and "Android" brands are what convinces people to buy a phone.


Also, the "Android Takeover" page you linked to earlier—where is it? I was unable to get there from Rogers' homepage.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Way to go, repeating exactly what I said and acting like it supports your claim.

I mean, yeah—you click on some phone (the flagship phone, mind you), and the link that loads mentions NOTHING about Android. You actually have to click on "features" to get a single logo.

That's so in-your-face and penetrating, it seems like they're REALLY convinced that the "Google" and "Android" brands are what convinces people to buy a phone.


Also, the "Android Takeover" page you linked to earlier—where is it? I was unable to get there from Rogers' homepage.

Spheric getting blue in the face.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

That's just licensing, most Android handset manufacturers customize Android, going as far as replacing the user interface. I wonder how much they spend per handset for that.

I wonder how much Apple spends per handset on its operating system...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Spheric getting blue in the face.

Oh no no, I assure you. I'm quite relaxed.

I admit to getting rather tired of dealing with the out-of-context-but-ignore-the-relevant-point arguing you consistently apply when you think somebody is disagreeing with you but don't understand why, so we'll just leave it at that.

BTW, the Lumia 900 doesn't seem to be selling too badly, at least according to preliminary PR spin:
Lumia 900 sales have 'exceeded' expectations, says AT&T retail chief | The Verge

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by freudling 

BS.

And the bottom line is, Windows is on the rise, contrary to your earlier assertion that it was declining.

Take your pick of two replies:

Option A:

It was declining for 10 straight months before going up at the end of the financial year when large companies often make large IT purchases. Again, I do this for a living so I know it happens.
PC sales have declined for a number of quarters while Mac sales have risen and as we all know iPad has been stellar. This according to Gartner and IDC so I doubt your figures to be honest.

Option B:

BS.

I can debate just like you.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I wonder how much Apple spends per handset on its operating system...

I doubt most people at Apple even know the answer, because it calculates its profits as a grand total (see Isaacson's bio, that bit is actually nicely expounded on). That means profits and losses are not calculated per division. What is in any case clear is that Apple makes the lion's share of its money by selling hardware, because »they love software«. Google and Microsoft make money by selling software (and ads/licenses). So in a sense, Microsoft does not compete with Apple, but with Android.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Yes, I did read it. I don't care if he says it hurts. Imagine me posting things to the contrary of what I think? I do because I have a balanced view of things.

I'm not certain how you can claim to have a "balanced view of things" when you say that you don't care about the point that makes migrating to Windows Phone painful.

[amazing]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I can debate just like you.

Note to self: don't bother clicking on any thread where freudling is posting. You'll just see lots of angry posts...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I doubt most people at Apple even know the answer, because it calculates its profits as a grand total (see Isaacson's bio, that bit is actually nicely expounded on). That means profits and losses are not calculated per division. What is in any case clear is that Apple makes the lion's share of its money by selling hardware, because »they love software«. Google and Microsoft make money by selling software (and ads/licenses). So in a sense, Microsoft does not compete with Apple, but with Android.

The point is that it's one thing to have to program and maintain an entire operating system; another to just do interface enhancements. So my point is, it's a small thing that some Android handset makers tweak interfaces. The whole operating system is already there. In fact, it's kinda cool that they can do this.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by amazing 

Note to self: don't bother clicking on any thread where freudling is posting. You'll just see lots of angry posts...

Hey that's not nice!

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I'm sorry but I don't even know what an HD7 is. I use a Lumia 900 and Mango. I don't have the issues that you state here. What I'm curious about is... now that I'm fairly happy with WP, the Lumia 900 will support Windows 8. I wonder if you've had any sneak peeks at it? I haven't had time to really sign up as a dev and get into the platform... yet. But we're thinking about developing for WP.

The HD7 was one of the original trio of WP7 devices (known as the Schubert overseas). The Lumia 900 will support Windows Phone 8.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

So my point is, it's a small thing that some Android handset makers tweak interfaces. The whole operating system is already there. In fact, it's kinda cool that they can do this.

No, it's not a small thing: these manufacturers work on a completely different scale than Apple, so what's a drop in the bucket for Apple is actually a sizable chunk of change for others -- especially if you're working on razor-thin margins.

And it makes for a very bad user experience, e. g. because it takes 1+ year (or never) until you get the most recent version of Android and it introduces more obstacles to cross-device compatibility. That's why there is little brand loyalty among Android handsets. I don't think it's cool at all, it's the worst of both worlds for users.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

No, it's not a small thing: these manufacturers work on a completely different scale than Apple, so what's a drop in the bucket for Apple is actually a sizable chunk of change for others -- especially if you're working on razor-thin margins.

And it makes for a very bad user experience, e. g. because it takes 1+ year (or never) until you get the most recent version of Android and it introduces more obstacles to cross-device compatibility. That's why there is little brand loyalty among Android handsets. I don't think it's cool at all, it's the worst of both worlds for users.

Nevermind the effect on developers. One app can inherit different behaviours on different devices.

[turtle777]

Pfff, those are lazy developers. 1337 developers like freudling do this adaption during their potty break.

-t

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Pfff, those are lazy developers. 1337 developers like freudling do this adaption during their potty break.

-t

"Lives, breathes, eats and shits tablets."

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Nevermind the effect on developers. One app can inherit different behaviours on different devices.

The bottom line is, Android with a customizable interface is a compelling value proposition to handset makers that don't have the resources to develop their own OS. It's become the de facto standard.

I personally don't like Android that much these days but it has created a large economy.

[freudling]

Looks like Lumia might be getting traction:

AT&T Nokia Lumia 900 continues to climb sales charts - SlashGear

[Nergol]

Windows Phone is nice, but at this point, it is to iOS and Android what Amiga was to Mac and Windows in 1993. That's not an insult, by the way - Amigas were great computers, and Workbench was a great OS. But it was too little, too late, and Amiga ended up first as an also-ran, then as history. Microsoft has enough money to keep Windows Phone going as a zombie OS for a lot longer than Commodore could, but if it doesn't take off - which it won't - they'll have to pull the plug sooner or later.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The bottom line is, Android with a customizable interface is a compelling value proposition to handset makers that don't have the resources to develop their own OS. It's become the de facto standard.

Agreed. A dev I used to work with is currently employed by Verizon developing bloatware for their Android devices.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Agreed. A dev I used to work with is currently employed by Verizon developing bloatware for their Android devices.

Nice. At least he has a job and not on the streets.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The bottom line is, Android with a customizable interface is a compelling value proposition to handset makers that don't have the resources to develop their own OS. It's become the de facto standard.

An standard is something used by the vast majority -- and that's not Android. That's especially true if you consider things like internet usage and willingness to pay for apps and content. Android is not the Windows of the smartphone world.

Originally Posted by freudling 

I personally don't like Android that much these days but it has created a large economy.

I don't think so. Most of the money and profits amasses on Apple. And developers don't come in droves to Android. Companies do not transition to Android phones and tablets for integration.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

An standard is something used by the vast majority -- and that's not Android. That's especially true if you consider things like internet usage and willingness to pay for apps and content. Android is not the Windows of the smartphone world.

I don't think so. Most of the money and profits amasses on Apple. And developers don't come in droves to Android. Companies do not transition to Android phones and tablets for integration.

Bottom line: Android is the number 1 mobile OS in the world. Whether you think it's good or not. Whether anyone makes any money from it or not... it's got the top market share.

By the way ya' all, I did a stock check today: 3 Rogers sales stores... all sold out of the Lumia 900. One had 2, but they were on hold. That kiosk received 24 units yesterday.

[Big Mac]

24 units? Wow!

What makes the Lumia 900 worth giving any consideration to? Looks kind of lame to me, especially with Microsoft's crap Metro interface. (Wow, look at all the big, useless squares!) It's also slow according to the benchmarks I'm seeing.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

24 units? Wow!

What makes the Lumia 900 worth giving any consideration to? Looks kind of lame to me, especially with Microsoft's crap Metro interface. (Wow, look at all the big, useless squares!) It's also slow according to the benchmarks I'm seeing.

Slow it is not. I've owned Android and WebOS and Crackberry. WP is buttery smooth. I know because I use it everyday. We might be getting another one here too because people really like it.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Bottom line: Android is the number 1 mobile OS in the world. Whether you think it's good or not. Whether anyone makes any money from it or not... it's got the top market share.

Android doesn't have top market share if you want to make money from making/selling apps. Or profit from offering wifi in planes. Android doesn't support such a big app and third-party hardware ecosystem. No. 1 in sales doesn't mean you're no. 1 with respect to other business-relevant metrics.

Android is not the Windows of the mobile world where a large user base implies strong presence in all markets. Apple is not struggling to survive and has problems to attract attentions of developers and users alike, quite the contrary, Android is having those problems.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Android doesn't have top market share if you want to make money from making/selling apps. Or profit from offering wifi in planes. Android doesn't support such a big app and third-party hardware ecosystem. No. 1 in sales doesn't mean you're no. 1 with respect to other business-relevant metrics.

Android is not the Windows of the mobile world where a large user base implies strong presence in all markets. Apple is not struggling to survive and has problems to attract attentions of developers and users alike, quite the contrary, Android is having those problems.

Android is the number 1 mobile OS in the world, and that's just the way it is. Because of this, the analogy holds firm: Android is the Windows of the mobile space because it has the most market share. Whether people think it's a piece of junk or not, etc. is not relevant. It is the de facto standard for today's handset makers. It's no longer Symbian.

[Spheric Harlot]

It is "the Windows of the mobile space" in exactly one particular way.

It is NOT "the Windows of the mobile space" in all others, including the arguably relevant ones.

[freudling]

Good review. TechnoBuffalo... while noting some drawbacks to the device like the screen not being as high resolution compared to others, John thinks WP is "buttery smooth", that the App store is good, and that he'll be using the phone as a main.

Nokia Lumia 900 Review - Worth the Wait? - YouTube

[freudling]

Wow. I'm smitten by Nokia Drive. It's totally awesome. I'm looking for to Apple doing their own maps with 3D navigation and turn-by-turn directions.

[freudling]

Cool! WP has Netflix! Sickola. Just installed it. I'm loving this damn phone. I never thought I'd like anything from Microsoft, but this thing rocks.

[Waragainstsleep]

I wouldn't get too attached, looks like Nokia are following RIM down the toilet.

Carriers and bankers not liking Nokia’s chances against iPhone/Android. Is it over? (Poll) | 9to5Mac | Apple Intelligence

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I wouldn't get too attached, looks like Nokia are following RIM down the toilet.

Carriers and bankers not liking Nokia’s chances against iPhone/Android. Is it over? (Poll) | 9to5Mac | Apple Intelligence

Ya I saw that. All I know is the Lumia and WP is great.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Cool! WP has Netflix! Sickola. Just installed it. I'm loving this damn phone. I never thought I'd like anything from Microsoft, but this thing rocks.

The question is whether the rest of the world will agree with you. I like WP7 a bit too, but would never buy one; and neither has anyone else.

Euro carriers: Nokia Lumia sales far from Android, iPhone | Electronista

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Ya I saw that. All I know is the Lumia and WP is great.

A viable platform needs to be sustained by sufficient sales. It looks as if Nokia's switch to Windows Phone 7 is too little too late. Horace Dediu has a nice piece on why Nokia is failing at the moment.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

A viable platform needs to be sustained by sufficient sales. It looks as if Nokia's switch to Windows Phone 7 is too little too late. Horace Dediu has a nice piece on why Nokia is failing at the moment.

Nobody can predict for certain what will happen. I have no idea if WP will make it. But it's nicer and better than Android in terms of speed and functionality from my perspective. The one thing I do know is that WP belongs to the biggest, baddest, richest, straight up software company in the world. That means there's lots of money behind it. MS can continue to flail until they get it right, or until they decide to move on and focus elsewhere. Nobody else can really do this.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

24 units? Wow!

What makes the Lumia 900 worth giving any consideration to? Looks kind of lame to me, especially with Microsoft's crap Metro interface. (Wow, look at all the big, useless squares!) It's also slow according to the benchmarks I'm seeing.

In some ways, it feels really slow because of all the slow-paced animations, and the hardware isn't really top of the line (but good for $99), but things like loading web pages or games isn't too slow. That said, if you have a 4S or a Galaxy Nexus, it does feel as slow as molasses. The Lumia 900 feels somewhere in between iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S in terms of speed.

Originally Posted by freudling 

Slow it is not. I've owned Android and WebOS and Crackberry. WP is buttery smooth. I know because I use it everyday. We might be getting another one here too because people really like it.

It's smooth, but not a speed demon.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I have no idea if WP will make it.

I don't believe you. Of course you know, you're just not telling us.

-t

[freudling]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I don't believe you. Of course you know, you're just not telling us.

-t

I wish I did. But here's my prediction. I used to think WP would grab marketshare and take over Android. My reasoning was that 1) Google faces a ton of litigation against Android... this has had the potential to make it an expensive OS for handset makers, as well as threatens to completely stamp it out of the market. 2) That people would eventually get tired of the same crap, cookie cutter, plastic junker phones with massive screens that all look and behave the same.

But Android has done nothing but ascend, saturating the market globally. It's now the de facto standard. I think the issue now is that because it's so ingrained in society, that it's become like the MS Windows/Explorer of today. Sure, Google stole some stuff... cut some corners, etc. But it's too late to cry about it now. Google is too big and too "important" for the system to shut down. It's too complicated. So I think the litigation won't hurt it much moving forward.

And Google has every opportunity to make it much better, which I think they're capable of doing. But WP remains a threat... not to Apple in the foreseeable future, but to Google... because as soon as Android reaches its peak and starts descending, all things being equal, it's going to be Android losing marketshare, and WP gaining. It's the only other mobile operating system worth using.

But if Google really improves Android and the handsets get better, WP faces a tough battle. In other words, none of us know what will happened, it's up to the major players to decide their own fate. But I think it's all predictable.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

That said, if you have a 4S or a Galaxy Nexus, it does feel as slow as molasses.

Talking about the 2012 flagship Windows Phone model?

That's a bullet to the temple, right there.

Also:
Mobile operators unconvinced by Nokia's revival bid | Reuters

*sigh*

[imitchellg5]

According to The Verge, all current Windows Phone 7 devices will not be getting the next major update of Windows Phone, dubbed "Apollo." So we're looking at a very short useful life of the Lumia 900.

[amazing]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Talking about the 2012 flagship Windows Phone model?

That's a bullet to the temple, right there.

Also:
Mobile operators unconvinced by Nokia's revival bid | Reuters

*sigh*

And here's the killer phrase from that article:

"Moody's cut its credit rating on Nokia to one notch above junk on Monday after the company said it would post losses for the first and second quarters. Standard & Poor's announced a similar downgrade in March."

"Nokia's shares fell below 3 euros, a 15-year low."

[freudling]

Originally Posted by amazing 

And here's the killer phrase from that article:

"Moody's cut its credit rating on Nokia to one notch above junk on Monday after the company said it would post losses for the first and second quarters. Standard & Poor's announced a similar downgrade in March."

"Nokia's shares fell below 3 euros, a 15-year low."

Well then they're dead. Then there's more positive news: choose your side:

Nokia’s building Lumia phones as fast as it can - IntoMobile

[imitchellg5]

Nokia just posted a $1.8bn Q1 loss.