[jeffhot]

So I never got the chance to use a Newton, and I want to know what the OS and user interface were like. How does it compare to Palm?

And furthermore, what would the OS/ UI be like if Apple ever got around to releasing a new PDA?? I could really use some drag and drop for one, and color of course.

Any thoughts?

[Judge_Fire]

Describing the whole OS can take awhile, but here's a snippet:

The Newton allowed you to write directly at the desired screen location, all the while attempting to interpret you're handwriting. Emphasis on word 'attempting'.

A software called 'Graffiti' came to the rescue - it allowed you to jot down simplified letter forms in a spesific square box, one letter at a time...

Graffiti came to the rescue? HA This guy definately doesn't know what he's talking about. Yes, the old system OS that ran on Newtons previous to the 130 weren't as good at recognition as later ones. After the 130, it was great.

See grafitti is just a charactor recognition engine. You can't even write a whole word. Just letters in a box. BLAH!

The Newton OS is a cross between a computer and a piece of paper. Everything is very intuitive. It makes sense. It is millions of miles ahead of the Palm OS. There is no comparision even today. Palm may have better hardware now, but the Newton is the best handheld operating system ever.

Ever since March 1998, I tried to find a replacement for my Newts. It's July 2001, I use my Newts. even more. So much more I got an accelerated MP2KU, running at 215-Mhz. I only miss color, unzipping, unstuffing, and access to large storage devices. The Newts. are basically small computers with long battery life and touch-screen interface. The GUI is very similar to desktops/laptops. Only problem I have is when I get back to my desktop to unstuff/unzip a file I try to 'tap-and-drag' the .pkg to the connecting software... :o

...any other questions???

[new newton]

The magic of Newton was in what it would do for you. Applications were wonderfully intuitive and cross-connective. The HWR has always been awsome on my 2000. Using my Palm is like living in the dark ages compared to my Newt.

Trying to describe it in a short message won't do it justice. Find one and play with it for a few days. If you're familiar with current PDAs, you'll be in awe. If you're not familiar with PDAs, you'll just think that Newton is the way they all should work.

[jeffhot]

Well I guess I'm asking you guys for a long description then! If you have the time, please indulge. Sounds like they're bitchin' (naturally).

Ok,

The Newton OS was an amazing OS. The things I touch on are only scratching the surface.

When Apple designed the Newton OS, they went for a few goals -

1. They redesigned the UI specificaly for working in your hand... ie - no Double Clicking, no menus at the top of the screen (your hand would cover the screen when selecting them). Special stylus gestures were created to do specific things. Crossing out text, erased it. Tap and hold allowed you to select a piece of text... just tap/hold and drag... and you select your text. Then, you want to cut it? Drag it to the side of the screen and it would drag over and "stick" there. That was your clipboard. Copy? Tap/drag to the side of the screen. Then go to where you want to go, and drag it where you want it to go. There are many sublties that make it very nice to work with. Despite comments - the Newton 2000/2100 Handwriting recognition is only now being equalled by 3rd party apps for PocketPC. Unforunately, the Rosetta print recognizer sits in the dungeons of Apple R&D, wasting away...

2. They designed the OS to be memory efficient... it was a sacrifice... as performance was the hit... but when it was designed Memory - especially flash ram - was damn expensive. It was a byte-code language... similar to Java (but before). In a sense it was an "interpreted" language. It was more space efficient, however. What was nice is that Apps could easily be patched... including the system ones.

Other cool things...

Data Soups... All Newton data was kept in accessible "soups" - a data structure that was accessible by any other app. Developers were encouraged to publish their Soup data to allow for sharing data. Apple did this with the built-in apps - such as Names and Dates... as a result, you should NEVER have to input data twice. If I wanted to email someone, it could pull email addresses very easily from your Address book. Any 3rd party app could use all your built in data with ease.

The Developer environment (Newton Toolkit) was based on Smalltalk - similar to Apple's new Cocoa development environment... the Newton dev app was excellent.

it was overall an excellent, well thought out environment... I know people thought it was expensive... I remember showing friends my Newton 2000 when I got it (circa 1997). There reaction was the following:

1) I didn't know this technology existed yet!
2) It's only $1000??? (which coincides with #1)

anything else?

I'll give my impressions of the Newton UI and OS:

First off, it's a very good handheld UI, built to be used in small spaces. Very memory and screen efficient. It's grayscale (or earlier versions are black and white--well, not exactly white, but greenish), so no color. Unlike Palm, where you have a set strip at the bottom of the screen to poke at or scribble at with your stylus, you could touch and interact anywhere on the Newton screen. Instant startup (because everything is in Flash memory), and there was always one application running as your "backdrop" app--usually the Notepad, but the eMate's usually had NewtonWorks (wordprocessor) as the backdrop app. Of course, you could change your backdrop app at will.

The later MessagePad 2x00s and eMates came with a number of applications built-in: the Notepad, which let you write notes (using the excellent handwriting recognition), outlines, draw/sketch, or record voice messages (these can be sent over the internet to other Newtons); Names is kind of a rolodex application to store all your contact phone numbers, names, addresses, emails, etc.; Dates is a calendar application; NewtonWorks is a word processor and spreadsheet app; EnRoute email app; NetHopper web browser; and quite a few more little apps. The screen can be rotated to whichever way you find most useful.

As someone else mentioned, all the data on the Newton is stored in data "soups". In other words, for the Names application, there is a Names soup, which stores all the Names, addresses, emails, phone numbers, etc. This Names "soup" is accessible to any other Newton application--for instance, the EnRoute email app takes its list of email contacts from the Names soup. This way, your data is only in one spot and it doesn't need repeating (so you save memory space). Similarly, the Dates application has a soup that contains all your calendar data.

There is also a plug-in architecture in the NewtonOS called Stationery. For instance, the Notepad application is basically just a big plug-in framework--the Notepad where you can write on is one piece, the outline portion is another, the voice recorder is another, etc. This made it very easy for third parties to make their own pieces of stationery (or plug-ins) for applicaitons. One person made a graph paper plug-in for the Notepad. Another made a grocery shopping list plug-in, etc.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

The Newton 2.0 OS was completely awesome and better then OSX and OS9 in terms of user-friendlyness.

Shame that the Newton hardware was so big and expensive.

[King Chung Huang]

The Newton also had intelligent assistants so that you could write "Meeting with Bob at 3:00 PM tomorrow" in the notepad, hit assist, and it would enter that into the appropriate slot in your calendar.

[jeffhot]

Thanks for the info, that's awesome. I had always thought a new Apple PDA would be neat-o keen-o just because it was Apple, but then I realized I had no idea what the UI was like in the old ones. I've just been taking a more critical look at my Handspring Visor lately and I realize that it's not really very well designed for use.

So what was the syncing like? How do they connect to desktops and laptops? Also, does anyone know a good website about newtons. The only source of info I have is what is covered in the Apple Design book.

Maybe I could still get one if they're really better. As long as there is a small one.

"The Newton 2.0 OS was completely awesome and better then OSX and OS9 in terms of user-friendlyness."

...The Newton 2.1 OS is even better than the 2.0.

"Shame that the Newton hardware was so big and expensive."

...Size is more dependant on the user. I really like and use my Sony laptop with a 10.4 in. screen.
...Expensive??? My MP2000(unit and accesories) cost $1500.00 in 1997. In 1997, my MP2000 saved me $2000.00. Every year my MP2KU saves me at least $2000.00.

I have friends I've known since high school, that's at least 15 years, when ever they try my MP2KU they easily leave me a note, update their personal info. in the Names App., input their birthday into the Dates App.(just to remind me), and leave a 'self-portrait' in NewtonWorks via 'SketchWorks'. These are people without even a Palm.

[jeffhot]

So where is the Newton lending library so I can try one out? They all look a little big, do any of the smaller ones run NOS 2.1?

"So where is the Newton lending library so I can try one out?"

Ha! I wish there was one. Newton's are still highly sought after (prices for 'em haven't come down much after 3-4 years!). If you can't find somebody in your area to let you give it a try, and you're really set on getting one, just go ahead and buy one either off of eBay, or respond to one of the many "For Sale" postings on NewtonTalk.net. If you end up unsatisfied with a Newton, as long as it is in fairly good working condition, you're almost guaranteed to be able to get your money back by selling it yourself!

"They all look a little big, do any of the smaller ones run NOS 2.1?"

They are all big (the newest MessagePad 2x00s are the biggest, however). Keep that in mind before purchasing. This isn't a Palm that will slip into a pocket, and they're much heavier than a Palm. But, on the other hand, unlike the Palm, the Newton's have much larger screens (a definite plus!), they let you use the entire screen real estate, and they are much more of a laptop replacement than a pocket organizer (they don't entirely succeed at laptop replacement, but they come really close, and have other benefits). The MessagePad 130s run NOS 2.0 (and I think 2.1, but I could be mistaken) fairly well. MessagePad 120s can run NOS 2.0, but I haven't seen anyone really satisfied with running NOS 2.0 on a MP 120 (there are severe memory limitations involved). The eMates have their own oddities--they have the keyboard built in, which is very convenient, and they have some unique software that the MessagePads don't, but eMates don't have handwriting recongnition.

"How do they connect to desktops and laptops?"

I don't synch my Newts much with desktop applications, but I can answer your above question. Newton's connect with Mac and Windows computers via a serial connection or ethernet (you'd have to buy an ethernet PCMCIA card for your Newton to use ethernet). You use a piece of software called Newton Connection Utilities (NCU) to connect your Newt and desktop/laptop for the later Newts (the older Newtons use other programs, such as Newton Backup Utilities). NCU allows you to make backups of the data on your Newt, lets you download software to your Newt, and upload software from your Newt (like, if you write a paper on your Newt, and want to transfer it to your word processor on your main computer as a rich text format document). Using NCU is fairly straightforward and easy.

"Also, does anyone know a good website about newtons."

If you want to see an overview of all types of Newtons ever released, go to the Newton Gallery at:
http://www.msu.edu/~luckie/newtgal.htm

The above site shows all the various MessagePads at the top, a middle section of Newton concept models, and a final section showing the eMates and all the 3rd party devices based on the NewtonOS (yes, there were quite a few non-Apple Newton's out there!).

For current discussion and info on Newtons, go to:
http://www.newtontalk.net/

and check out the list archives, which are updated hourly. This is the NewtonTalk mailing list--if it interests you, feel free to join! Lots of current info there.

Although it has stopped being updated, Info-Newt has a lot of good links to other Newton sites--might be worth a look:
http://www.newtintouch.com/

[TimmyDee51]

I have to chime in on this one . I have a uMP2000 and a 120/2.0 and I can't say enough about them. The uMP2000 is my baby. It does everything. When it comes to a handheld OS, Newton 2.0 is great and 2.1 is outstanding. I won't even think of turning to Palm or *wince* PocketPC (pun intended).

On a side note, Daed has some very good comments (you should register, Daed. The more Newton lovers the merrier). One point, though, that the 120 can be upgraded to 2.1, is incorrect. The 120/1.3 can be upgraded to 2.0 by swapping ROM chips, but that's about it. 2.1 has many features specific to the 2x00 and the eMate that the 120 cannot take advantage of. Regardless, the 120 is still a venerable PDA, if a little slow compared to the 2x00. Those things fly.

On the topic of syncing, I agree with Daed. At first I did so with Claris Organizer (Palm Desktop's precursor) but eventually found that to be tedious. My Newton is almost always with me, so I just check that for names, dates, etc. Plus, data entry on a Newton is light years easier than a Palm. I think it is this fact that explains why Newton users don't sync as much as Palm users. Why enter data on the desktop and then sync when it's far easier on a Newton to just write it in? That sort of attitude is why I believe that the Newton was a truly outstanding OS. It didn't have to rely on a desktop to be fully functional.

TimmyDee51--

Actually, I am registered under a similar name! However, I almost always have my cookies "off", and this message board doesn't seem to log me in when my cookies are "off". I just got tired of going to my browser preferences ad nauseum, so I decided I'd just continue posting as an unregistered user.

I have a MessagePad 130 that runs NOS 2.0 fairly well, but I've heard some people complain that NOS 2.0 is unstable on a 120. What's your experience? Any difficulties or limitations besides the speed factor? Just curious.

eMate 300 does have HWR. It's slower than a MP2x00 due to it's 25-Mhz. CPU.

I guess I should have been more clear about my eMate handwriting comment:

The writing system on the MessagePads use two systems--a cursive identifying system, Calligrapher, which was made by the Russian software company, ParaGraph; and a print writing system that lets you write printed, or non-connected letters, developed internally at Apple, called Rossetta.

I'm positive the eMates only come with Rossetta, not the cursive recognition system. So, yes, you can write in "print" letters on the eMates, but the writing system on them is much more limited than on the MessagePads (which is not a huge loss, since I find it rather difficult to write on the eMate screens anyway). You can go ahead and try writing cursive words on your eMate--it won't work (maybe there's a way to install the Calligrapher system, I'm not sure, but it doesn't come in the original eMate package).

But, yes, the eMates are much slower than the MessagePad 2x00s.

[TimmyDee51]

My 120 runs 2.0 with a decent amount of stability. I haven't had anything major happen to it. While it runs slowly, it is reliable. That said, I also don't use it nearly as much as my uMP2k. I did have a 130 for a while, and the extra memory made a difference. Other than that, it is fully functional for the simple notes I take and the games I play on it (Chiral, some spacey Star Trek type game that came with it, and blackjack). I have also used it for beta testing new Newton apps when a developer needs varied platforms.

[btober]

Here are some screenshots: The backdrop application is like the desktop. I use Avi's Backdrop, which allows you choose a backdrop picture as well (I changed mine to what you see here just for these pictures). The extras holds all of your applications. If you want more pics, just specify what you want to see.

[jeffhot]

Hey thanks a lot to everyone for contributing to this thread! I think I'm gonna get a 130 as soon as I can find a good deal out there.

I've been studying my AppleDesign book recently too, and you all may be interested to know that the Newton 110/120/130 is the first Apple product designed by the venerable Jonathan Ives! That alone is reason enough for me to get one.

It's gonna be fun to get to experience an awesome new (to me) Apple product for under $100. Haha!!

[Bockie]

Originally posted by btober:
<STRONG>If you want more pics, just specify what you want to see.</STRONG>

How about some pics of the communications software (or more specifically the newton syncing with another Mac)?

[btober]

When you open the Newton Dock app. When you connect to the computer. Pic of Newton Connection Utilities running under Classic.

[jeffhot]

Alright, thanks for more cool screenshots! Good to know that Newtons are still just as useful as they ever were, even though they've been "dead" for years.

That'll be cool to keep using it with OS X. Um, you might want to check your email, too. You have a few new messages.

[mbperk]

Bradley,
Wow thanks for the screen shots. I noticed that you have Pocket Quicken on your newton, how did you install it? And did you buy it from Landware? I have it on my palm, I am planning on getting a newton (I have been trying to buy a 2100 on ebay, but as soon as they go up they are gone) so that will be a must on the newton.

[Bockie]

WOW! Thanks for the pics...It seems more and more like the NOS is as intuitive as the MacOS! Now if I can only convince my wife that buying a used computer is acutally worth it.

[btober]

Brad is fine for me...

Actually, I have a MP120/2.0 as well and PocketQuicken came installed on that, so I just installed it on the 2100. It's by Intuit. I think you can download it for free from <A HREF="http://www.unna.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.unna.org
</A>

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: btober ]

[Sven G]

It's simply amazing how advanced the Newton was: the "pocket" versions had nothing to envy to today's Palms and Visors (on the other hand, the PocketPC, due to its much more powerful hardware, is another question...)!

I sincerely hope that Apple will "resurrect" the Newton, of course in a new form, powered by Mac OS X; conceptually, there could indeed be at least 3 models (with the third option as the most advanced and viable):

- a Palm-sized PDA;

- a PSION-like "micro-portable" with integrated keyboard;

- and - most important of all! - an Apple implementation of Microsoft's forthcoming "Tablet PC" - that is, a full personal computer/digital hub, with integrated handwriting recognition, driven by an "ordinary" portrait-mode (and even landscape-mode, if you were able to rotate it 90°...) version of Mac OS X.

I think the future will be very exciting!

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Sven G ]

[wANCO tHE sANE]

Have any of you people read the very last page of the July issue of Macworld? They were talking about how Apple might build another handheld... Does anyone want me to put the article up?

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: wANCO tHE sANE ]

[jeffhot]

I've read it, and it's really just nothing but a bunch of conjecture. I say don't put it up, because any number of rumor threads here provide the same content, and interactive no less!

[MaxMac]

OSX is Unix based right? Linux is Unix based right? Hmmmm.... www.agendacomputing.com

[jeffhot]

If you are suggesting that Apple whip out the ol' checkbook, I would suggest that they don't need to. They already have the foundations of an awesome handheld OS in house (somewhere) plus all the brilliany Software Engineers you could want. Maybe they can throw one together after 10.1 comes out? Can't take much more than a weekend, right?

Write new Newton OS Friday night over Pizza, get rid of bugs Saturday morning, have Product Design put together some hardware Saturday afternoon and evening, and give Jonathan Ive ALL DAY sunday to make a beautiful case, right?

[Michael Branagan]

I had 2 2100's until a few months ago when I sold then to a couple of kids out west. I loved the 2100, but just did not have the time/support to work on the complexities of sync'n with the new macs, while watching the apps that I wanted slowly go where all old apps go ... not working. At least they got a deal.

[WL2100]

Hey MB, you should have emailed me, I'm starting up a Newton Users Group here in LA. I've got lots of stuff and how to use these stuffs... ;-) Well, if you get another MP2100 let me know. On newtontalk.net there are others coming back to the Newton.

[CityGuy2003]

Sven G,

Found this a while ago...not even a rumor...just a hope, enjoy!

hoping for an "iPad"

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: CityGuy2003 ]

[Sven G]

It would be great if Apple rolled out the very first (Mac OS X) widely adopted Tablet PC on the market: probably they will (at least, I hope!)...

The "final" dilemma is: default portrait mode (as in the MS implementation) or default landscape mode (as in the above, very interesting "prototype")...?

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Sven G ]

Well, I've officially ditched my handspring for my MP 130. I just got tired of not being able to do things that I know are possible with my MP on the visor. I never really had a problem with the fact that I couldn't draw in my notes on the visor til I got the newton and could not only draw but scale that drawing however I wanted. How cool is that? Then the whole drag to the side to cut was just too much for me to handle. Not to mention the assist feature. That and the fact that I can still use it under OSX and with Palm desktop and there's alot of 'free' software to be found out there.

So, what date management program do people use. I'm using dateman and it's pretty good. What others should I try? Does the rechargable battery need to be conditioned?

Long Live the Newt!

btober, could you trim up those images? they take a year and a half to load on my 56k. maybe put links to them or something? thanks.

[TimmyDee51]

Originally posted by &lt;lazy torifile&gt;:
<STRONG>So, what date management program do people use. I'm using dateman and it's pretty good. What others should I try? </STRONG>

For dates, I have used the built-in Dates app and TimeTrax. While I loved TimeTrax, it is far to expensive for me to consider purchasing. For the time being, Dates works just fine. I also downloaded a program called PIMple by Way-Chung Wong. It's a nice freeware program that adds a button to your backdrop that brings up a simple pop-up window, showing a calendar with your appointments and to-dos right underneath. This way, I input everything into Dates and use PIMple to check stuff on the fly.

In addition to all the functionality mentioned so far, the Newton OS 2.1 also supports pre-emptive multitasking, web browsing/email, fax capabilities, 16-grey scales, and an e-book reader, all out of the box. Other cool stuff includes text-to-speech which can be used from within most applications, and ethernet support.

[Sam Agnew]

Just looked in that Newton Archive linked to above and there are WaveLAN drivers. How cool is that? Anyone tried them? This would seriously get my MP2K out of retirement. Right now I don't have a working serial Mac and am too broke/lazy to get a USB/serial adapter. If I could just cruise my Airport network on the Newt I'd be in heaven. I love that old thing. It recognises my (very poor) handwriting better than me sometimes and is just so full of intuitive little touches. Graphitti - pah! Spit! I'm quite keen on OS X but it's a confused OS. The team that built OS X could never have built the Newton OS, sad to say. As for jobs resurecting the Newton, well... The Newton was Sculley's baby and it was Sculley who originally booted Steve from Apple. When Steve returned the Newton was one of the very first projects to get 'Steved'. So I'm not holding my breath. And I'd much much rather have a colour, updated Newton OS than OS X or 'pocket' OS X. I mean, I can hardly use the damned thing on my iBook at 800x600!

[zac4mac]

I have an old MP120, sits next to the main monitor of my Mac at work. I don't use it much, mostly for converting measurements metric-SAE etc. It's most important task however is "cuckoo Newton". When the alarm goes off I love watching the faces trying to figure out what's making that noise... then I roll over to the desk and tap the screen.