[Veltliner]

It's the first desktop class processor in an iMac, the 4-core processor.

I wonder how the cooling works. Will there be fans running constantly like in a Mac Pro?

[EndlessMac]

I don't believe there is any information on that yet. At least I don't know of any. I'm sure we will learn more about it as it gets closer to the release date.

[P]

Apple claims 18dBa at operator position on the Core 2 models, but that the "number may vary with configuration". No **** Sherlock.

The max continuous power at the plug is 365W, which isn't too bad as it includes the display. That is 85W more than the old 24" model, or a 30% increase, but the area also went up by 25%. If the heat sources are spread out a bit, it doesn't have to be so bad. Also note that the idle power of Lynnfield is very good - it uses less power than the desktop Core 2 models with a TDP of 65W, and 50W less than the Core 2 Quads with the same TDP. At full blast it's a different story, but it's closer to the 65W models than the 95W ones. Remember that the 95W includes a significant chunk of the chipset, and remaining P55 PCH is also more efficient now.

Finally, the LED backlight is more efficient (ie, less heat) than the old CCFL models. In total, I think we'll see a model that goes full blast when working hard, but is as quiet as the current ones when idling. That's the important thing to me - I only ever stress my iMac when gaming, and I use headphones for that.

Getting very close to pulling out the credit card now.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by P 

In total, I think we'll see a model that goes full blast when working hard, but is as quiet as the current ones when idling.

When working in Photoshop this would mean fans on/fans off.

I guess I'll stay with my 24", and wait until I can afford a Mac Pro (Maybe they will have discontinued the fake Mac Pro with the low RAM ceiling, and offer a real computer for under 3300$ (that's the current entry level price for a real MacPro). So, currently, the desktop options are lousy.

[P]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

When working in Photoshop this would mean fans on/fans off.

I guess I'll stay with my 24", and wait until I can afford a Mac Pro (Maybe they will have discontinued the fake Mac Pro with the low RAM ceiling, and offer a real computer for under 3300$ (that's the current entry level price for a real MacPro). So, currently, the desktop options are lousy.

Seriously? Even if you ignore the quad, you can still get a very powerful dualcore with a gorgeous 27" screen. The low end MP is silly, but I think it more likely that they kill it altogether than upgrade it. The iMacs are a stronger option than ever before.

[Simon]

Two huge heat sinks. Three fans. CPU and GPU placed as far from each other as possible.


(use the USB ports at the bottom for size comparison)

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

Apple claims 18dBa at operator position on the Core 2 models, but that the "number may vary with configuration". No **** Sherlock.

The max continuous power at the plug is 365W, which isn't too bad as it includes the display. That is 85W more than the old 24" model, or a 30% increase, but the area also went up by 25%. If the heat sources are spread out a bit, it doesn't have to be so bad. Also note that the idle power of Lynnfield is very good - it uses less power than the desktop Core 2 models with a TDP of 65W, and 50W less than the Core 2 Quads with the same TDP. At full blast it's a different story, but it's closer to the 65W models than the 95W ones. Remember that the 95W includes a significant chunk of the chipset, and remaining P55 PCH is also more efficient now.

Finally, the LED backlight is more efficient (ie, less heat) than the old CCFL models. In total, I think we'll see a model that goes full blast when working hard, but is as quiet as the current ones when idling. That's the important thing to me - I only ever stress my iMac when gaming, and I use headphones for that.

Getting very close to pulling out the credit card now.

My current Core 2 Duo 2.33 GHz machine is silent 100% of the time, even with 190% CPU usage.

My guess on absolutely no real info at all is that at times the 27" iMac will sound more like an iMac G5, but other times it will be silent. If true, I can live with that. Well, I'll have to, since the machine is already ordered.

Originally Posted by P 

Seriously? Even if you ignore the quad, you can still get a very powerful dualcore with a gorgeous 27" screen. The low end MP is silly, but I think it more likely that they kill it altogether than upgrade it. The iMacs are a stronger option than ever before.

I suspect the next low end Mac Pro will be 6-core (with 12 logical cores).

Actually, that's one of the published rumours from last week.

[P]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I suspect the next low end Mac Pro will be 6-core (with 12 logical cores).

I suspect it will be crushed under Steve's heel like a bug, and the MP returning to a single standard config.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

I suspect it will be crushed under Steve's heel like a bug, and the MP returning to a single standard config.

That's also possible, but it would necessitate Apple dropping the price of the Mac Pro 12-core significantly. Otherwise you'll have too much of a gap.

[Simon]

Exactly. With the iMac now better and cheaper, the MP needs to come down in price even more. Otherwise they might as well drop it all together. Unsurprisingly sales have been crap anyway as we recently heard.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by Eug 

My current Core 2 Duo 2.33 GHz machine is silent 100% of the time, even with 190% CPU usage.

My guess on absolutely no real info at all is that at times the 27" iMac will sound more like an iMac G5, but other times it will be silent. If true, I can live with that. Well, I'll have to, since the machine is already ordered.

I'm sure it will be gorgeous.

Let us know about the noise levels.

And about the display. Just got an email from apple advertising the "most gorgeous display ever".

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by P 

I suspect it will be crushed under Steve's heel like a bug, and the MP returning to a single standard config.

Me too, I think this kind of half a$$ Mac Pro will go away.

For good this time.

Remember the single processor G5 PowerMac?

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Exactly. With the iMac now better and cheaper, the MP needs to come down in price even more. Otherwise they might as well drop it all together. Unsurprisingly sales have been crap anyway as we recently heard.

Yes. The entry level price for a "real" Mac Pro is much too high with 3300$. Seems to me the highest entry level price for the real deal ever.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Exactly. With the iMac now better and cheaper, the MP needs to come down in price even more. Otherwise they might as well drop it all together. Unsurprisingly sales have been crap anyway as we recently heard.

The key think is the display.

No matter how gorgeous the new 27" iMac is, it is very important that the display is not too reflective. At least it is for me. If they had a kind of matte option, and if the ventilation noise isn't too bad (after all, the computer sits right next to your face, not, like a MacPro, under the desk), it would be my computer, too.

I just wonder how much maxing out to 16 Gb will cost with crucial 4 GB sticks.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by veltliner 

i just wonder how much maxing out to 16 gb will cost with crucial 4 gb sticks.

$1279.96

[Simon]

$960 at Newegg.

[P]

An entry-level MP makes excellent sense, but not at $2500. At $1500, maybe, with a single quad and a reasonable GPU, but Apple won't sell that. They like the MP to be Pro, and cost correspondingly. I think they will focus on the two-socket model, maybe squeeze in two more memory slots per CPU, and offer them with quads or "sixshooters". They can easily start at $2500 for that.

[Simon]

Indeed. One MP model starting at $2500 makes sense. A crippled model at $2500 and the real deal starting at $3300 doesn't. Judging by the consensus we've reached here, the quad MP should be phased out soon.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by P 

An entry-level MP makes excellent sense, but not at $2500. At $1500, maybe, with a single quad and a reasonable GPU, but Apple won't sell that. They like the MP to be Pro, and cost correspondingly. I think they will focus on the two-socket model, maybe squeeze in two more memory slots per CPU, and offer them with quads or "sixshooters". They can easily start at $2500 for that.

Totally agree.

Best would be to have the chance to buy into the MacPro line by e.g. buying a single processor unit, and late upgrading it to dual.

But this is probably technically not really feasible.

2500 $ would really be a good entry level price. 3300, as it is currently (if we ignore the Joke MacPro), is way too high.

Apple is having a big success. I wonder if they keep the prices up (because people pay them) or lower them for more market share.

I have the impression that the great earnings come from iMacs and laptops, and the MacPro is not such a great seller because of the price. This could make Apple think.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Indeed. One MP model starting at $2500 makes sense. A crippled model at $2500 and the real deal starting at $3300 doesn't. Judging by the consensus we've reached here, the quad MP should be phases out soon.

It would fit Apple's good image better.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

I have the impression that the great earnings come from iMacs and laptops, and the MacPro is not such a great seller because of the price. This could make Apple think.

Actually, Apple's desktops have been selling quite bad since a while already. It's their portable growth that accounts for their Mac earnings increases.

[Spheric Harlot]

Not true: AFAIK, the iMac has been selling well, and in increasing numbers (the only desktop to buck the global trend).

[Simon]

You should read my post. I was talking desktops, not iMacs. And for desktops overall it's absolutely true.

Last quarter Apple's notebooks outsold desktops 3:1. The quarter before last desktops had lost 25% over the previous quarter while notebooks gained 34%. The only reason overall Mac sales didn't decline.

If you wish to believe the iMac was doing very well, then you're saying the MP was a total failure.

[Veltliner]

Well, does the iMac qualify as a desktop?

I'd say it is a desktop, even though (except for the top of the line 27" iMac) with laptop technology inside.

I'm yet to try to put my 24" iMac on my lap...


Maybe we should make a difference between a desktop a la iMac and a tower (which actually never sits on a desk's top, but underneath a desk)

Mac Pro users are users who need a lot of computing power (this alone makes me wonder which apple had the wormy idea of the current Quad Core).

[Spheric Harlot]

The iMac is a Desktop. This got confused.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

Well, does the iMac qualify as a desktop?

The point I was making is that when Apple mentions "desktops", they are talking about the Mac mini, the iMac, and the Mac Pro. Overall those sales were not doing well lately. We know the mini has been selling quite OK. So if the iMac was doing well, the MP absolutely sucked. And if the MP was doing OK, it must have been the iMac that wasn't.

This is how Apple groups their products. It has nothing to do with how we see them.

I'd say it is a desktop, even though (except for the top of the line 27" iMac) with laptop technology inside.

It's not just the Core i5/i7 models that now have desktop CPUs/chipsets. The iMac in terms of its CPU can now be considered a desktop. What makes it special is that it's about the only 'desktop' that offers zero expansion capability. OTOH is does come with an excellent screen at a very decent price.

I'm yet to try to put my 24" iMac on my lap...

Hehe. The old 24" iMac was a different story. I would go so far as to call it a non-portable MBP w/o a battery.

[P]

The mini still has a laptop CPU, and it also uses a laptop HD, DVD and RAM. If anything, that's a laptop without the display. The iMac has been a hybrid for some time now, as it always had a full 3.5" HD and in many iterations had full-size DIMM slots as well. It's still a hybrid, because now it has SO-DIMMs and maybe a laptop GPU.

Ah, whatever. The desktop and laptop chips are more similar now than they ever were before, as all the chips clock down and disable parts of themselves to cut down on energy usage. At some point that distinction will have to go away completely and turn into just the TDP levels (T,P,E,W and whatever). There are still different chipsets for desktop and laptop Nehalems, but I'm not so sure that that will happen for the next generation as well.

[Veltliner]

I would be really interested to hear from those who'll get their 4-core 27" iMacs: how hot do your machines get when working more demanding applications like Photoshop or Final Cut Pro?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

I would be really interested to hear from those who'll get their 4-core 27" iMacs: how hot do your machines get when working more demanding applications like Photoshop or Final Cut Pro?

Why would you care how hot a desktop gets? IMHO the crucial aspect with the iMac is how loud it is as you're forced to have it sitt in front of your face (unlike a tower) all the time. But from all I've read so far the new iMacs do indeed appear to be very quiet. Even under load.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Why would you care how hot a desktop gets? IMHO the crucial aspect with the iMac is how loud it is as you're forced to have it sitt in front of your face (unlike a tower) all the time. But from all I've read so far the new iMacs do indeed appear to be very quiet. Even under load.

Weren't those the 2-core iMacs? The 4-core should get much hotter.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

Weren't those the 2-core iMacs? The 4-core should get much hotter.

I've been reading about how quiet the new quad-core i5/i7 iMacs are.

[P]

My brand new Core i7 is indeed very quiet - the only thing I hear is the HD and DVD, the fans are silent. I do not own FCP or PS, so I can't test that, but I will try to do some other tests later tonight.

[Eug]

Cinebench should tax the CPU nicely.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by P 

My brand new Core i7 is indeed very quiet - the only thing I hear is the HD and DVD, the fans are silent. I do not own FCP or PS, so I can't test that, but I will try to do some other tests later tonight.

The silence is good news, and I'm very interested in the results of your Mac work-out. (To be fair, you have to do your part and use a stationary bike while your Mac is hopping through your test hoops...)

[P]

Cinebench does not make the fans rev appreciably. Are there any settings to make it run longer or something? That OpenCL galaxies thing did rev the fans a little more, but not so you'd notice.

[Eug]

You could try Handbrake x264 encoding. Reports are that it can maximize the usage of the 8 "cores" (according to Activity Monitor), and make the fans fairly audible, too.

This in contrast to my Core 2 Duo iMac. Even at max usage with Handbrake, it was silent.

[P]

OK, I found something that did pin the CPU. I found a fractal application that pinned all 8 logical cores, and at max setting it took almost 15 minutes to run. This is what happened.

The iMac idles with the CPU fan at about 940 rpm, as reported by iStat. I consider this silent, and in fact it is the slowest of the fans at default (The HD is the fastest, as the idle temp of the HD seems to be the lowest). When I started the test, nothing happened. Fan stayed at 940 rpm, but the CPU temp slowly started climbing. Eventually the HD fan had to rev slightly, but the CPU fan stayed. Eventually the CPU temp hit 67 C, which seemed to be some sort of threshold. The fans revved to 1250, but not all at once - it came little by little, and without the rev counter on the screen, I would not have noticed directly. I slowly started to notice something - not fan noise, but the sound of air moving.

Note that fan noise can be good or bad irrespective of how loud it is. This is good noise. Incredibly good noise. I had to sit still and completely silent to hear it - I swear, if the phone had rung I would have had a heart attack.

With the fans at 1250, the temperature stayed steady for a while, but eventually the fans had to rev some more. I suspect that there was hot air building up in the case that kept the fans having to rev a little more. The rev counter climbed very slowly upwards until it hit 1350 after almost 15 minutes when the run ended. Half a minute later, the fans were back down to 940 rpm.

Even at 1350, where you can hear the air moving if you have good ears, the noise is more soothing than anything. It's absolutely not annoying, and I doubt I would have noticed without watching the rev counter slowly climbing. This was after maxing the CPU for 15 minutes after running several other tests before. I haven't managed to really max the GPU yet, or both at the same time, but the CPU simply does not get hot enough for the fan noise to be annoying. The only annoying bit was the top of the iMac, which came close to burning hot to the touch.

[Eug]

Note that fan noise can be good or bad irrespective of how loud it is. This is good noise. Incredibly good noise. I had to sit still and completely silent to hear it - I swear, if the phone had rung I would have had a heart attack.

Heh. I lol'd when I read this.

But yeah, that's great. It seems they've got good and large fans in the new 27" iMac, which can move a lot of air but don't have the annoying higher pitched air noise that some smaller fans can have. Let's just hope it doesn't acquire a whine when it gets dusty.

P.S. What fractal app was that? Power Fractal?

[P]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Heh. I lol'd when I read this.
P.S. What fractal app was that? Power Fractal?

Yes.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by P 

Even at 1350, where you can hear the air moving if you have good ears, the noise is more soothing than anything. It's absolutely not annoying, and I doubt I would have noticed without watching the rev counter slowly climbing. This was after maxing the CPU for 15 minutes after running several other tests before. I haven't managed to really max the GPU yet, or both at the same time, but the CPU simply does not get hot enough for the fan noise to be annoying. The only annoying bit was the top of the iMac, which came close to burning hot to the touch.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Heh. I lol'd when I read this.

But yeah, that's great. It seems they've got good and large fans in the new 27" iMac, which can move a lot of air but don't have the annoying higher pitched air noise that some smaller fans can have. Let's just hope it doesn't acquire a whine when it gets dusty.

Great test, P! I appreciate it.

This is really good news. I like my iMac quiet.