[Gamoe]

I just wanted to give some feedback on the profanity issue:

I have no vendetta against profanity-- there is a time and place for it. However, it has little place in intelligent, public conversation (which is what an Internet forum is) and disallowance of such words does not censor any thought or idea but merely demands more substantive thought and expression in its place.

I applaud the decision to disallow profanity on this board.

[Kevin]

[selowitch]

I'd have to agree. Although there are a small number of instances where a curse-word is appropriate, in a forum like this, potty-words would tend to overwhelm the rest of the text. Leave it out. MacNN is an excellent forum; let's keep it that way.

[turtle777]

What the frick ?

-t

[SVass]

What definition are you using for "PROFANE"?
Do you mean irreligious which is currently confined to the Political Lounge or are you including scatological which is banned? sam

[turtle777]

^^^ Klugscheißer

-t

[Gamoe]

Originally Posted by SVass

What definition are you using for "PROFANE"?
Do you mean irreligious which is currently confined to the Political Lounge or are you including scatological which is banned? sam

I think you know what I mean. I'm talking about obscene language, that is that which is "offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency".-- The specifics of which would take many pages to discuss. I am not speaking of religious arguments.

But as Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 (about pornography specifically, another kind of "profanity" or "obscenity"), "... I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Gabriel Morales

But as Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 (about pornography specifically, another kind of "profanity" or "obscenity"), "... I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."

And he has no special powers of discernment. Some people just simply refuse to listen to their "inner voices"

[selowitch]

It's a slippery slope, really. Once you start allowing profanity, other nuisances (like type in all capitals) start to show up and the discourse overall just starts to coarsen. Let's no go there, campers.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by selowitch

It's a slippery slope, really. Once you start allowing profanity, other nuisances (like type in all capitals) start to show up and the discourse overall just starts to coarsen. Let's no go there, campers.

Hmmm, for some reason I doubt that would happen.

I'd like to address several issues brought up in this thread (as mine was loX0r3d):

1) "An online forum is a place for intelligent discussion"

Take one look at the political lounge and you shall see how truly flawed this statement is. I don't see how the idiocy and flame wars that go on in there are "intelligent", and I certainly don't see how they're any better than using "profanity".

2) "Profanity has no intellectual or otherwise useful meaning"

Again, I disagree. Profanity, when used skillfully, can add color and vibrance to enforce and emphasize an idea, as well as adding otherwise unattainable humor. Placing curse words intelligently into your sentences can add that extra "kick" to get your idea across. Unfortunately many people are unable to use profanity skillfully and instead brazenly disfigure their sentences into weakly construed garbage.

3) "It's not censorship! You can express yourself another way!"

Half-true. It is censorship, again, by definition (you know, like when they *bleep* things out on TV). However, I agree that many times people would be better of not cursing and using something else to express their ideas, but at the same time I feel the same way about many other things you people say. Why is it that I don't see the moderators censoring people for writing horrible sentences that would earn a 5th grader a solid F- in Language Arts?

4) "We don't want to give off a bad image"

Puh-lease. Give me a break.

(Those are just recent ones I was able to quickly find, I know I've seen much worse than that in the past).

Bottom Line: You bastards are censoring us and you have no rational reason for it! **** you!

[Gamoe]

1.) Regardless of what members certain choose to discuss, the board rules and policies should be designed to be conducive to intelligent discussion, something which profanity is generally not.

2.) Your reasoning that profanity adds extra "kick" or otherwise "unattainable humor" is really not compelling enough to overcome the good reasons *not* to allow profanity on a public Internet board. Profanity, can at times be used sparingly in an intelligent conversation, but it seems too tempting to too many to use it in an inappropriate way on a public board, where no one can see you.

In addition, people of insufficient emotional maturity, such as children and many other viewers of the MacNN forums, may be reading. Such people do not have the full ability to deal with and use profanity in appropriate ways and settings.

There are a number of other non-profane words that can be used to add extra "kick" or "humor". I assure you there are many more eloquent words that can even more accurately describe whatever it is you want to express. Perhaps the search for such words might even help in increasing the board's total vocabulary!

Profane words really have no significant intellectual value. Their value is primarily emotional.

3.) Actually, most definitions of I've found of censorship seem to imply something more malicious than the practice in place here. I find this board quite flexible and free, specially with the discussions that go on in the Lounge(s).

I have been censored in other boards, most notably a communist board and the Apple Discussions board. I have never been censored here. Here you can express practically whatever idea you wish-- You are not limited to expression of ideas, merely the writing of certain profane words.

If you have such a problem with not being allowed to post profanity, then try using alternatives or even asterisks. Everyone you want to reach will know what you mean, which is what you want anyway, no?

I agree that I do not understand the lack of language skills shown in the forums sometimes. However, the moderators would be doing a disservice if they were to censor individuals because they lack proper writing skills. Instead, other members and moderators generally try to understand and help clarify any confusion, which also (should) helps the poster better express himself later.

4.) Imagine if we had those *AND* rampant cursing on the board! What an image *that* would convey!

[Maflynn]

I've had conversations with people (or been around those) who have no idea that they're swearing. The use of the f-bomb is so intermingled into there vocabulary that they use it for nouns, verbs, adverbs. Now here's the sad thing, they unable to intelligently convey their message. Its lost amongst the profanity. I generally ask those not swear around me or my wife (never mind of there are small kids around). Most out of respect and courtesy comply and I respect that.

The majority of people who profusely use profanity have limited vocabulary and are incredulous when we voice our displeasure at hearing (or reading) the vulgarity. While one post in the other profanity thread correctly mentioned that plenty of intelligent well rounded people swear profusely, doesn’t mean its acceptable, also dare I say those people are generally in the minority.

[Athens]

there is no fcuking point as its easy to get around the f*cking things as this post points out. Its a impossible battle to win.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

I've had conversations with people (or been around those) who have no idea that they're swearing. The use of the f-bomb is so intermingled into there vocabulary that they use it for nouns, verbs, adverbs. Now here's the sad thing, they unable to intelligently convey their message. Its lost amongst the profanity. I generally ask those not swear around me or my wife (never mind of there are small kids around). Most out of respect and courtesy comply and I respect that.

The majority of people who profusely use profanity have limited vocabulary and are incredulous when we voice our displeasure at hearing (or reading) the vulgarity. While one post in the other profanity thread correctly mentioned that plenty of intelligent well rounded people swear profusely, doesn’t mean its acceptable, also dare I say those people are generally in the minority.

I find most people who talk that way do it out of insecurity (They think it makes them sound tougher, cooler, etc)

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Gabriel Morales

I just wanted to give some feedback on the profanity issue:

I have no vendetta against profanity-- there is a time and place for it. However, it has little place in intelligent, public conversation (which is what an Internet forum is) and disallowance of such words does not censor any thought or idea but merely demands more substantive thought and expression in its place.

I applaud the decision to disallow profanity on this board.

I would have to disagree with that:

First, as has been pointed out by itistoday already, very few Internet forums really qualify to be labelled “intelligent [...] conversation”—“mindless babble” might be a more accurate description—and second, censoring swear words does in fact censor particular thoughts or ideas. They can usually be expressed otherwise, yes, but (as itistoday also pointed out) they might then lose at least part of the validity or ‘gust’ they were meant to convey. I will agree with you, though, that the number of thoughts or ideas that are literally censored away through profanity censoring (i.e., thoughts or ideas that cannot be expressed without swearing) are in the vast minority, and are generally no great loss to an Internet forum, either.

However, since we are already talking about profanity as a conveyor of particular thoughts and ideas (or messages), we can basically divide these into two: the messages where profanity is used as a linguistic tool, in order to add a special ‘gust’ or feel to a statement, but otherwise irrespective of and irrelevant to the message itself; and the ones where the profanity is consistent with the message itself, and the message expresses little other than the literal meaning of the profanity.

I see no reason for disallowing profanity in the former of these two ‘groups’, since it is indeed then used as a tool for “intelligent [...] conversation”.

Regarding the latter of the two ‘groups’, why should it be the profanity (i.e., the cuss word) that requires censoring here? The message that the profanity is used to convey is basically meant to be an insult (or whichever particular effect/emotion the profanity is meant to induce), so it’s the message behind the profanity that’s the problem, not the profanity itself. And, if the writer is even reasonably intelligent and has a fairly decent command of language, he can easily deliver the same message, every bit as insultingly, without using profanity. This doesn’t make the message any better or worse.

I have never quite been able to understand people who dismiss swear words, and tell others to stop swearing, simply because they think profanity “sound ugly” or “implies that you are disrespectful” (I do realise that you explicitly stated that you have no vendetta against profanity per se, Gabriel: this is not aimed directly at you). Swear words are just words, strings of phonemes and morphemes put together to form a phonetic unit that is associated more or less stringently with a particular meaning. If I didn’t like the word “snow”, and went about telling people to stop saying “snow” all the time, people would think I was crazy. Replace “snow” with “shit”, however, and people will be apologising to me and trying to stop themselves swearing.

Personally, I use profanity all the time when speaking—less so when writing, especially in English—and see no problem. If I say, “Holy f*cking sh*t, that was impressive!”, I am not referring to consecrated excrement copulating, obviously; rather, I am emphasising the sentence as a whole. There are very few truly non-profanic emphatic sentence particles that can achieve a similar effect.

Despite my extensive use of profanity, however, you will not find me calling people jackasses, idiots, morons, or other such monikers, whether by using profanity or erudite lexicon. (Well, not to their face, anyway. Once out of earshot, I have been known to curse petty officials who reel off the unbending and ludicrous ins and outs of bureaucracy to me under my breath—but that’s beside the point.)

I’ve gone on far too much here—I didn’t mean to. My point was just that I think censoring out words as being profane and possibly insulting is a rather silly thing to do. If people want to offend or insult each other, they’ll have plenty of other—and much more efficient and truly insulting—ways of doing so, without resorting to run-of-the-mill profanities. It’s the thought that counts, to me at least.

[Kevin]

Yes, I think the disallowing of profanity has more to do with it stopping alot of the lower level personal attacks usually associated with them, more so than a moral judgement.

As cuss words aren't the only words blocked.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yes, I think the disallowing of profanity has more to do with it stopping alot of the lower level personal attacks usually associated with them, more so than a moral judgement.

As cuss words aren't the only words blocked.

Well, I have no statistics at the ready here, but overall, I don’t think it’s very effective at doing that. Judging by the amount of personal attacks made here, compared to other large forums that have no profanity filters, I’d even say it has virtually no effect. As I said, if people want to make personal attacks (and, apparently, they do, though I doubt most really consider their personal attacks to be personal attacks—I’m sure there are people here who see some of what I write as personal attacks against others, though I do not intend them as such), they’re going to do it, filters or no filters. Especially when the filters can be circumvented as easily as replacing single letters with asterisks.

What other words are blocked too, though? Apart from G-o-a-t-s-e (which is unblocked again now, right?) and similar words, I can think of none...

Edit: Nope, apparently not unblocked again after all. My bad.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Oisín

...

I see no reason for disallowing profanity in the former of these two ‘groups’, since it is indeed then used as a tool for “intelligent [...] conversation”.

Regarding the latter of the two ‘groups’, why should it be the profanity (i.e., the cuss word) that requires censoring here? The message that the profanity is used to convey is basically meant to be an insult (or whichever particular effect/emotion the profanity is meant to induce), so it’s the message behind the profanity that’s the problem, not the profanity itself. And, if the writer is even reasonably intelligent and has a fairly decent command of language, he can easily deliver the same message, every bit as insultingly, without using profanity. This doesn’t make the message any better or worse.

I have never quite been able to understand people who dismiss swear words, and tell others to stop swearing, simply because they think profanity “sound ugly” or “implies that you are disrespectful” (I do realise that you explicitly stated that you have no vendetta against profanity per se, Gabriel: this is not aimed directly at you). Swear words are just words, strings of phonemes and morphemes put together to form a phonetic unit that is associated more or less stringently with a particular meaning. If I didn’t like the word “snow”, and went about telling people to stop saying “snow” all the time, people would think I was crazy. Replace “snow” with “****”, however, and people will be apologising to me and trying to stop themselves swearing.

...

Bravo! Excellent post!

That was so well said that I think I'll even borrow that gif from Kevin:



(Gabriel Morales: I'd reply to your post but I'd just be repeating what Oisín already said)

[Kevin]

It should be a non-issue.

If you have issues with not being able to spell cuss words out, well I don't know what to say.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It should be a non-issue.

If you have issues with not being able to spell cuss words out, well I don't know what to say.

Many reasons have been spelled out for you in this thread as to what exactly the issue is.

The only reason you (and by 'you' I mean everyone pro-censorship) have a problem with it is because you have been brainwashed since you were a child to have a problem with it. Curse words have their place in every language and they have their functional purposes. The concept and ideal of a "free country" and "freedom of speech" is what should be obvious and a "non-issue".

In both threads, I have not heard a single rational, logical reason as to why I need to put an asterisk in my f*ck. You "don't know what to say" because you have no such reason. All I hear coming from your side is: "It's bad! Mommy told me so!"

Edit: As Oisín said, the real problem should be with the insulting and stupid "thoughts" behind what people say. The tools they use to express these thoughts should not matter.

[ghporter]

<personal opinion>I feel that use of expletives, curses and crudities reduces the quality of thought more often than it amplifies the emotions being discussed. Without some sort of "oversight" that prohibits excessive foul language, people's discourse devolves into sewer talk. On the other hand, intentionally using less foul language forces one to consider one's words more carefully while at the same time making the occasional and sparing use of strong language all the more effective.
</personal opinion>

[Demonhood]

Originally Posted by itistoday

The concept and ideal of a "free country" and "freedom of speech" is what should be obvious and a "non-issue".

incorrect.
"freedom of speech" only applies to your right to speech without the government squashing it. MacNN is not the government. it's a private company that can restrict speech in any way it sees fit. i may use curse words in everyday speech, but i appreciate the lack of it on these boards. if it causes someone (usually someone young) to choose another word instead of one on the censor list, all the better. maybe they'll learn that not everyone communicates with a string of expletives in normal conversation.

you can moan all you want about social norms and the fact that they're "just words", but the fact remains that, overall, the excessive use of swearing is unprofessional. a member should be able to describe the problem with their machine without references to bodily functions.

if you don't like it, i'm sorry. but it's not going to change.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by itistoday

The only reason you (and by 'you' I mean everyone pro-censorship) have a problem with it is because you have been brainwashed since you were a child to have a problem with it.

Or, common sense tells me using such words show lack of intelligence. When I hear someone that cusses often it's not only annoying, but the conversation is usually on the neanderthal level. Now, I am not trying to be pretentious here, as I have cussed, and on occasion still lets a few slip now and then.

But I think for adults to intentionally type out bad words is kind of silly. That has nothing to do with my upbringing so much as what I have noticed since I have become an adult.

Curse words have their place in every language and they have their functional purposes. The concept and ideal of a "free country" and "freedom of speech" is what should be obvious and a "non-issue".

Oh jeesh, curse words are hardly any reason for the Freedom of Speech. There are more important reasons for having that.

In both threads, I have not heard a single rational, logical reason as to why I need to put an asterisk in my f*ck. You "don't know what to say" because you have no such reason. All I hear coming from your side is: "It's bad! Mommy told me so!"

If you think that is the only thing we have said (Did anyone even say that? ) you need to go back and re-read.

Regardless of the whining, nothing will change I am betting.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Demonhood

incorrect.
"freedom of speech" only applies to your right to speech without the government squashing it. MacNN is not the government. it's a private company that can restrict speech in any way it sees fit.

Oh, I'm very well aware of this. That doesn't make it anymore OK to censor curse words. The founding fathers made that constitution with a profoundly rational ideal in mind. That ideal applies not only to governments but to all human beings. Again, it is fairly obvious to me that you simply "do not like" curse words, and are therefore restricting their usage. You ignore any arguments that their use might have actual intelligent function or purpose, you just say: "No. The founding fathers and their ideal can kiss my ass--whoops! Bad word! I meant to use a professional term like backside!"

i may use curse words in everyday speech, but i appreciate the lack of it on these boards. if it causes someone (usually someone young) to choose another word instead of one on the censor list, all the better. maybe they'll learn that not everyone communicates with a string of expletives in normal conversation.

The hard reality and truth of the matter is that your actions to censor the usage of certain words will not, in anyway at all, make somebody more intelligent or even deter them from using those words.

you can moan all you want about social norms and the fact that they're "just words", but the fact remains that, overall, the excessive use of swearing is unprofessional. a member should be able to describe the problem with their machine without references to bodily functions.

"unprofessional", "should be able to describe". Very good reasons you've got there, unfortunately all have no rational grounding. MacNN is neither a place for "professional" businessmen and world leaders to come discuss world issues, nor is it an educational institution designed to teach "etiquette". Many good reasons for the use of curse words have been posted in this thread, please consider them. (Particularly Oisín's post).

if you don't like it, i'm sorry. but it's not going to change.

I'm sorry to hear that.

[itistoday]

Demonhood (and whoever else has a say in the matter):

I was thinking of various professional websites and thought of Google. So I propose the following compromise:

I doubt you or anyone else would like it if Google prevented everyone from searching for anything that contained curse words, and blocked all search results that were deemed "socially unacceptable". The way it works currently is that by default Google has "moderate-safe search" turned on (at least for the images), and users can, at their discretion, choose to turn it off or completely block any questionable content.

So would it be possible to implement such a feature on the forums? By default things would be as they are now, but registered members would have the option to turn off censorship of words.

[Demonhood]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Again, it is fairly obvious to me that you simply "do not like" curse words, and are therefore restricting their usage. You ignore any arguments that their use might have actual intelligent function or purpose, you just say: "No. The founding fathers and their ideal can kiss my ass--whoops! Bad word! I meant to use a professional term like backside!"

this paragraph is both wrong and inflammatory. i DO like curse words. i enjoy them quite a bit. a well placed and unexpected one amongst my friends brings me joy. you completely neglected the part where i said it wasn't appropriate for this forum. no one needs to curse to get help here. period.
and, for the record: i think the founding fathers were some pretty great fellas. but this is a business, not a government. you have the freedom to post here based on our rules. even the founding fathers recognized that private businesses can set their own set of reasonable standards. and looking in this thread, i'd say that the majority of users agree with our current standards.

there are a great number of young children that browse these forums. i know of several members whose children do so. they (by and large) would prefer them not to run across a string of curse words (which a mod or admin would have to manually edit) while trying to figure out why Putt Putt's Circus Adventure isn't running properly. not an unreasonable expectation, i think.

Originally Posted by itistoday

So would it be possible to implement such a feature on the forums? By default things would be as they are now, but registered members would have the option to turn off censorship of words.

i've seen a hack that does precisely this. i'm not sure how useful it would be though. we'd have to re-apply it each time we upgraded the forum. and there are many more worthwhile hacks i'd rather spend my time applying. there really doesn't seem to be any benefit for me doing so, besides appeasing you.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Demonhood

there are a great number of young children that browse these forums. i know of several members whose children do so. they (by and large) would prefer them not to run across a string of curse words (which a mod or admin would have to manually edit) while trying to figure out why Putt Putt's Circus Adventure isn't running properly. not an unreasonable expectation, i think.

Though I seriously question the reality of this example, I agree that had I had small children that were somehow smart enough to create an account on MacNN and ask questions about Putt Putt, I wouldn't want them to run across gross profanity either (though I'm not sure how profanity would wind up in a discussion of a Putt Putt game...)

i've seen a hack that does precisely this. i'm not sure how useful it would be though. we'd have to re-apply it each time we upgraded the forum. and there are many more worthwhile hacks i'd rather spend my time applying. there really doesn't seem to be any benefit for me doing so, besides appeasing you.

Well thank you sincerely for considering it. When I made the request I wasn't aware that it would be a real pain to implement, and as such, it's perfectly reasonable to me that time should be spent implementing more important features. I just hope you can see where I'm coming from (the non-child perspective).

Oh, one more thing, I think it's wrong to say that the only reason to apply the hack is to appease me, and only me. It seems to me that the reason to apply it is to give people a choice over what they can see, and of course all the arguments outlined in previous posts. I am not the only one on this forum that uses the word "f*ck" in his posts. I'm sure many other users are annoyed at having to put that asterisk.

[Railroader]

My opinion (and I'll admit, I did not read the entire thread): If profanity is allowed to be freely used here, then I will leave. I would lose a lot of respect for MacNN and the management. I believe a lot of other people such as myself would not feel welcome here.

And being made to feel welcome here is MacNN's business.

If you don't feel welcome here because you think you are being "censored", then you are a very shallow person. If you were in my house/business and I asked you to stop using profanity and you didn't, then you would be asked to leave. Call it censorship if you want, I call it "good taste."

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Though I seriously question the reality of this example, I agree that had I had small children that were somehow smart enough to create an account on MacNN and ask questions about Putt Putt, I wouldn't want them to run across gross profanity either (though I'm not sure how profanity would wind up in a discussion of a Putt Putt game...)

Kids play games. Kids go into the games forum here. Have you seen rob's posts in the game forum? I certainly wouldn't want my kids exposed to that.

Originally Posted by itistoday

I am not the only one on this forum that uses the word "f*ck" in his posts. I'm sure many other users are annoyed at having to put that asterisk.

That is sad.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Railroader

My opinion (and I'll admit, I did not read the entire thread): If profanity is allowed to be freely used here, then I will leave.

An ultimatum... how childish... So then do you squirm each time you see somebody say 'f*ck' (or in some other way bypass the censor)? People curse on these forums all the time, and the thoughts some people express here are also very insulting, whether or not they curse.

And being made to feel welcome here is MacNN's business.

I don't think it's quite your place to say what is and what is not MacNN's business. (And if that happens to be part of it, they certainly don't enforce it).

If you don't feel welcome here because you see curse words, then you are a very shallow person.

Fixed™

If you were in my house/business and I asked you to stop using profanity and you didn't, then you would be asked to leave. Call it censorship if you want, I call it "good taste."

Sorry, you cannot apply this analogy. Online public forums are not "homes" for families. They are public domain, are viewable by anyone (can anyone freely step foot into your house?), and are more like a public square on a university campus than a home. But just as a side comment, had you invited me to your home I would of course obey your request not to curse.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Kids play games. Kids go into the games forum here. Have you seen rob's posts in the game forum? I certainly wouldn't want my kids exposed to that.

Uh huh, you are aware that this is MacNN's policy:

All users under the age of 13 must seek permission from their parent or guardian in order to gain membership of the MacNN Forums forums. While we welcome participation from members under 13, we require that a parent or guardian fax or mail back a signed permission form before we grant membership.

All of the 13 year olds I know have already been exposed to curse words for several years (schools can do that to them).

Now, assuming you're aware of this policy, then that means (hypothetically) you've granted your 8 year old permission to visit these forums. Then your argument becomes: "Well, they shouldn't have to see those curse words!" Except it falls apart because people here constantly say things like:

"If Laura Croft were real I'd definitely f*ck her"
"Haha, he died because he's Jewish!"
"Sometimes I masturbate when I'm in the shower"
"Check out this video of a cat's head falling off!"
"Except you're wrong because black people can't read!"
"I cna't f*kcing splell for f*kin sh*t an hav no knowledje of grahmnaticle strukture!"
"George W. Bush is a great president!"

Etc, etc. There are not only curse words on this forum, there are plenty of other things, so if you have a problem with that, your only option is to completely control your child's internet access. Replacing f*ck with **** does nothing.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by itistoday

An ultimatum... how childish... So then do you squirm each time you see somebody say 'f*ck' (or in some other way bypass the censor)? People curse on these forums all the time, and the thoughts some people express here are also very insulting, whether or not they curse.

No. A preference. I don't go to restaurants with smoking sections and I don't go to video stores with adults-only rentals. If my favorite restaurant suddenly decided to allow smoking I would tell them why I would no longer go there.

I certainly do not like to read profanity. I would no longer visit a forum that allowed it's usage freely.

I have often thought of leaving here becuase the mods are lax in enforcing the rules such as your circumventing the profanity filters. You are very much like Rob in that you don't think the rules apply to you. why is that?

Originally Posted by itistoday

I don't think it's quite your place to say what is and what is not MacNN's business. (And if that happens to be part of it, they certainly don't enforce it).

I was offering my opinion. Do you think MacNN's business is anything other than selling ad space and making money?

Originally Posted by itistoday

Fixed™

Talk about childish. why would you change a person's post? I find that highly unethical.

Originally Posted by itistoday

Sorry, you cannot apply this analogy. Online public forums are not "homes" for families. They are public domain, are viewable by anyone (can anyone freely step foot into your house?), and are more like a public square on a university campus than a home. But just as a side comment, had you invited me to your home I would of course obey your request not to curse.

I assure you, MacNN is not public domain. Have you read the TOS?

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

MacNN is a private business. NOT a public "square".

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Uh huh, you are aware that this is MacNN's policy:

All users under the age of 13 must seek permission from their parent or guardian in order to gain membership of the MacNN Forums forums. While we welcome participation from members under 13, we require that a parent or guardian fax or mail back a signed permission form before we grant membership.

All of the 13 year olds I know have already been exposed to curse words for several years (schools can do that to them).

I consider pretty much anyone under 18 a child. What other people allow their children to be exposed to in their homes is up to them. If MacNN deosn't want adults to be exposed to profanity it is up to them.

Originally Posted by itistoday

Now, assuming you're aware of this policy, then that means (hypothetically) you've granted your 8 year old permission to visit these forums.

I have a 2 year old and a 4 month old. I cringe everytime I hear someone curse around them. There's no excuse for using profanity around children. It's against the law in Michigan to use profanity around anyone under 18 years old. Even in public places. A man was fined a few years ago and the ACLU lost the case.

Originally Posted by itistoday

Then your argument becomes: "Well, they shouldn't have to see those curse words!" Except it falls apart because people here constantly say things like:

"If Laura Croft were real I'd definitely f*ck her"
"Haha, he died because he's Jewish!"
"Sometimes I masturbate when I'm in the shower"
"Check out this video of a cat's head falling off!"
"Except you're wrong because black people can't read!"
"I cna't f*kcing splell for f*kin sh*t an hav no knowledje of grahmnaticle strukture!"
"George W. Bush is a great president!"

Etc, etc. There are not only curse words on this forum, there are plenty of other things, so if you have a problem with that, your only option is to completely control your child's internet access.

For myself it is my own preference. I simply don't like being around people who's language abilities are immature and limited to using profanity.

As to exposure to children, I would not want my child bombarded with foul language.

Everyone should monitor and control their child's internet access. It would be neglectful not to.

Originally Posted by itistoday

Replacing f*ck with **** does nothing.

It identifies language that is against the rules. And "****" is a lot easier to gloss over than the actual profanity.

The mods should warn those who use that language that is in violation of the TOS and ban those who ignore the warnings.

[Athens]

I think some exceptions should be allowed, like when referring to that fu*king retard Rob.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Athens

I think some exceptions should be allowed, like when referring to that fu*king retard Rob.

You might have a point.

Originally Posted by Athens

I think some exceptions should be allowed, like when referring to that fu*king retard Rob.

Who's the one who can't spell 'brakes' correctly? Who's the one who can't spell miscellaneous? Who's the one who refuses to acknowledge that downshifting to slow down is unhealthy for your vehicle?

Oh. That'd be you. The mentally retarded canadian.

Originally Posted by Railroader

You might have a point.

Very christian-like.

[Kevin]

Pssst Christians have a sense of humor.

You obviously don't.

[Kevin]

Pssst Christians have a sense of humor.

You obviously don't.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by MentallyRetardedCanadian

Very christian-like.

I NEVER try to be "christian-like"!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by MentallyRetardedCanadian

Very christian-like.

I NEVER try to be "christian-like"!

Sorry if you took that as an insult Kilbey. I thought you were attacking me. You've been fairly civil to me lately, and I shall return the favor. You like trains, so I guess that makes you at least somewhat cool.

[subego]

I've never seen a mod chastise someone for judiciously defeating the censor

[itistoday]

Railroader, you are ridiculous. I won't dignify your replies with a response because frankly I would be repeating myself and wasting my time. I clearly and logically asserted the reasons that at least we should be given an option to turn off the censor for our accounts. Your replies are pathetic, highly opinionated and avoid any logic or attempt to understand the opposing side. Example: "Talk about childish. why would you change a person's post? I find that highly unethical." The point I was making went right over your conservative head. And that example you gave about the man in Michigan is wrong because if you actually read about it, you'll see that the decision was later overturned in the court of appeals and the law dismissed. Why? Because it was unconstitutional. The appeals panel wrote that it would be "difficult to conceive of a statute that would be more vague". Here's a link if you want it (unlike you I provide my sources), I am through discussing the issue with you because you are inconceivably dense, and frankly there's no point to it. Sorry, but I just don't see any possibility in convincing you of your wrong viewpoint, and I assure you, your irrelevant bitching and off-topic ramblings won't change mine as they lack any logic whatsoever and do not have any pertinence to the issue being discussed.

Call me a quitter if you want, but I cannot stand it when I make a point and it is completely ignored/not-understood and replied to with something that's either off-topic or has already been addressed like: "I simply don't like being around people who's language abilities are immature and limited to using profanity" and "As to exposure to children, I would not want my child bombarded with foul language."

[Demonhood]

this thread isn't going anywhere good. issue closed.