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Is this not the appropriate forum to discuss infractions? (Page 2)
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Moderator
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Dec 10, 2006, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Not only was it not answered, it was locked.
Demonhood answered why the account was closed in the first part of the thread.
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
It was going nowhere because you refused to answer the question. So you locked it.
Yeah, so? The member who has used this fun account hadn't come forward and I had decided not to give away his identity. And, where was this thread going to go after that?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Baninated
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Dec 10, 2006, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Demonhood answered why the account was closed in the first part of the thread.
No one asked you why the account was closed. We asked you why you gave out one accounts personal information, but refused to give another account's personal information out.
Yeah, so? The member who has used this fun account hadn't come forward and I had decided not to give away his identity. And, where was this thread going to go after that?
People was wondering why you wouldn't do such a thing to that member, when you did to another.

You never answered that. You just gave the "Demon took care of it blah blah' excuse then locked the thread when people were pressuring you to give up his name.

So you just locked it.

That is you locking threads because of personal reasons Oreo. You aren't supposed to be doing that.

If someone was acting out, reprimand them. Delete the post.

Don't lock the topic because you personally don't like the way the thread is going.

This is why Mods and admins are having a hard time getting people to respect them.

It goes both ways.
     
Dedicated MacNNer
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Dec 10, 2006, 07:12 PM
 
the thread was going nowhere. Mods should lock stupid crap threads, using their personal judgment.
     
Baninated
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Dec 10, 2006, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Blasphemy View Post
the thread was going nowhere. Mods should lock stupid crap threads, using their personal judgment.
The thread was going nowhere because a mod refused to answer a question. And still is.
     
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Dec 10, 2006, 07:36 PM
 
and this thread is going nowhere now. Mods don' t answer to you. Maybe some banned time would give you perspective.
     
Baninated
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Dec 10, 2006, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Blasphemy View Post
and this thread is going nowhere now. Mods don' t answer to you.
Mods don't answer to anyone, I think that is the problem people are bringing up right now. And I wasn't the only person that asked.
Maybe some banned time would give you perspective.
And tell me, what would be the banning reason? I'd love to know.
     
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Dec 10, 2006, 07:57 PM
 
to enlighten you
     
Baninated
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Dec 10, 2006, 08:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Blasphemy View Post
to enlighten you
no see I have to break rules to get banned.

And I've already been enlightened. Thanks anyhow.
     
Clinically Insane
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Dec 10, 2006, 08:46 PM
 
Wow, this thread feels like Groundhog Day.

-t
     
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Dec 10, 2006, 08:48 PM
 
Groundhog Day is interesting and entertaining.

This is decidedly not.
     
Clinically Insane
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Dec 10, 2006, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
No one asked you why the account was closed. We asked you why you gave out one accounts personal information, but refused to give another account's personal information out.

People was wondering why you wouldn't do such a thing to that member, when you did to another.

You never answered that. You just gave the "Demon took care of it blah blah' excuse then locked the thread when people were pressuring you to give up his name.

So you just locked it.

That is you locking threads because of personal reasons Oreo. You aren't supposed to be doing that.

If someone was acting out, reprimand them. Delete the post.

Don't lock the topic because you personally don't like the way the thread is going.

This is why Mods and admins are having a hard time getting people to respect them.

It goes both ways.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
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Dec 10, 2006, 09:06 PM
 
You are adorable Chuck.
     
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Dec 10, 2006, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
I've been told this myself. And tooki admitted above it has happened. And it hasn't just happened when "things got out of hand" or whatever.
Absolutely not.

I have indeed used a temporary ban as a threat for a member who refused to drop an issue after I spent hours responding with great detail to message after message after message of arguing, during which the member was both a) completely, completely unwilling to budge or give even the tiniest bit, and b) was extraordinarily unpleasant. The issue needed to be dropped, and eventually I had to put an end to it.

There is absolutely no case where a member has been threatened in the first response to drop an issue or face consequences. It's a method of last resort, when reasoning and discussion have failed.

tooki
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 12:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
I'd love to know if Lateralus ever apologized over such event.
No and he remains entirely indignant. In the PMs he refuses to accept that his ban was entirely faulty and incorrect.

Sadly, this has caused me to lose almost all respect for the gentleman. I really didn't want to lose respect for him and I gave him an opportunity for us to work this out, as gentlemen would, but he remains indignant.
     
Baninated
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Dec 11, 2006, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by tooki View Post
Absolutely not.

I have indeed used a temporary ban as a threat for a member who refused to drop an issue after I spent hours responding with great detail to message after message after message of arguing, during which the member was both a) completely, completely unwilling to budge or give even the tiniest bit, and b) was extraordinarily unpleasant. The issue needed to be dropped, and eventually I had to put an end to it.
One member was actually banned. I am talking about you threatening a bad. And tooki, You are basically saying you are giving people warnings because after a awhile they wont budge or side with you. Well I've been in said conversations with you. YOU don't budge either. You basically make up some reason no matter how bizarro it is for issuing a ban, and stick by it. You have a history of getting upset whenever anyone questions your authority. Even went so far as to once tell me if I didn't stop complaining about the moderation in here that I would be banned because I was causing other people to "follow me" or some other silliness. Well you can't blame these new complaints on me.
There is absolutely no case where a member has been threatened in the first response to drop an issue or face consequences. It's a method of last resort, when reasoning and discussion have failed.
You must have bad memory. I guess that is what I get for deleting logs.

I've gotten ban notices from you stating in the FIRST message that I was not to respond to you about it. That your decision was FINALE.

YOU may not remember it. I do. And is it really that far fetched to believe?
( Last edited by Kevin; Dec 11, 2006 at 01:57 AM. )
     
Baninated
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Dec 11, 2006, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
No and he remains entirely indignant. In the PMs he refuses to accept that his ban was entirely faulty and incorrect.

Sadly, this has caused me to lose almost all respect for the gentleman. I really didn't want to lose respect for him and I gave him an opportunity for us to work this out, as gentlemen would, but he remains indignant.
I see a pattern here..

And certain mods wonder why no one listens to them anymore.
( Last edited by Kevin; Dec 11, 2006 at 01:58 AM. )
     
Baninated
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Dec 11, 2006, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by tooki View Post
Absolutely not.

I have indeed used a temporary ban as a threat for a member who refused to drop an issue after I spent hours responding with great detail to message after message after message of arguing, during which the member was both a) completely, completely unwilling to budge or give even the tiniest bit, and b) was extraordinarily unpleasant. The issue needed to be dropped, and eventually I had to put an end to it.

There is absolutely no case where a member has been threatened in the first response to drop an issue or face consequences. It's a method of last resort, when reasoning and discussion have failed.

tooki
tooki,

what might a member do when a mod does the same? Say the mod is in the wrong, but refuses to budge? If the member keeps asking the mod, then the member runs the risk of being tempban. Seems like an uneven playing field to me.
     
Mac Elite
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by tooki View Post
The first step in any dispute (regardless of whether here on MacNN, at work, at school, etc) is to try and work it out between the two involved parties. Only if that fails should you bring in a third party, in private, and only if that fails should you go public with your dispute.
I agree with that. However, in real life, this mostly applies to situation that happened between two individual, without the whole office knowing about this. As everything we do here is public, I think that sanctions or discussion about a sanction should be public. A little bit like the justice system, records are public. If you go to court to discuss your case, everything is public. As for the original sanction, I think it would be a good thing if it was made public from the start, so the members would learn from example (Ex: post edited by: Mod X. Member Y received an infraction/ban for this post, for "this reason").

Regarding the Rule #8, what exactly is wrong with "posting-and-running"? I see it as "Hey, while reading some news site, I stumbled accross an article that may interest people here, but I don't want to comment because I'm late for work/My break has ended/Dinner is ready/I have a headache/I don't know what to say, etc.

After all, it happens everyday in real life:
Jim: hey guys, did you see that story about XYX? what do you think about it?
John: I think that (opinion A)
James: I agree [equivalent of +1, which is why I don't understand why this is forbidden also]
Jones: As for me, I think that (opinion B)
Finally, as for the quoting rule, personnally, I prefer when the OP quote a good amount of the original article, so I have a good idea of the subject, and I don't have to open a new window and read the whole article: the most relevant parts are already quoted. I click the link if i want to read more about the subject, or if I feel the OP didn't choose his quotes in an objective manner.
     
Baninated
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Regarding the Rule #8, what exactly is wrong with "posting-and-running"? I see it as "Hey, while reading some news site, I stumbled accross an article that may interest people here, but I don't want to comment because I'm late for work/My break has ended/Dinner is ready/I have a headache/I don't know what to say, etc.

After all, it happens everyday in real life:
I know why the rule was made. It came up out of partisan bickering.
Finally, as for the quoting rule, personnally, I prefer when the OP quote a good amount of the original article, so I have a good idea of the subject, and I don't have to open a new window and read the whole article: the most relevant parts are already quoted. I click the link if i want to read more about the subject, or if I feel the OP didn't choose his quotes in an objective manner.
As do I. But I don't have a partisan bone to pick with people who do this.

Not everyone that does this gets singled out. Just ones that people really don't like.
     
Baninated
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
tooki,

what might a member do when a mod does the same? Say the mod is in the wrong, but refuses to budge? If the member keeps asking the mod, then the member runs the risk of being tempban. Seems like an uneven playing field to me.
Exactly. If tooki hadn't unbanned you, you would have been banned and it would have been seen as legit. Very few mods want to step on the toes of other mods and take away a ban. Demon did it once for me with a ban tooki gave me.

But this only happens with the most ridiculous bans that no one can really justify. Not questionable ones.
     
Clinically Insane
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Regarding the Rule #8, what exactly is wrong with "posting-and-running"? I see it as "Hey, while reading some news site, I stumbled accross an article that may interest people here, but I don't want to comment because I'm late for work/My break has ended/Dinner is ready/I have a headache/I don't know what to say, etc.
 
A legitimate question. In response, I will post this:

Plagiarism is the study of "honestly" claiming or implying original authorship of material which has not actually been created, such as when a person incorporates material from someone else's work into his own work without attributing it. Within academia, plagiarism is seen as academic dishonesty and is a serious and punishable academic offense. Plagiarism may happen unintentionally in the case of unconscious plagiarism or if a plagiarist is unaware of the need for citation. Unintentional plagiarism is not dishonest but it may be careless.
Non-attribution in ipse is not necessarily plagiarism; it is only such when the norms of the community are affronted. In normal discourse, it is not usual to make attribution. Likewise, use of non-attributed Biblical phraseology or quotations in a sermon is acceptable. To an extent, accusations of plagiarism seem to be attracted by a perceived hubris on the part of their target. [original research?]
Plagiarism is not necessarily the same as copyright infringement, which occurs when one violates copyright law. The copying of a few sentences for a quotation is fair use under US copyright law, but, if not attributed to the true author, it is plagiarism.

Contents [hide]
1 Punishments
2 Frequency of plagiarism
3 Practical advice
3.1 Unintentional Plagiarism on the Internet
4 Organizational publications
5 Famous accusations and examples of plagiarism
5.1 Academia and Scholarship
5.2 Computer Games
5.3 Film
5.4 Journalism
5.5 Literature
5.6 Music
5.7 Politics
5.8 Wikipedia
5.9 Other instances
6 See also
7 References
8 External links
[edit]
Punishments

In the academic world: Plagiarism is a serious academic offense which can result in punishment ranging from a failing grade on the particular assignment (typically at the high school level), or the course (typically at the college level), leading cumulatively to an academic suspension or expulsion. Being found guilty of plagiarism can ruin an academic career; it may result in revocation of one's degree, or the loss of one's job, and will result in the loss of academic credibility. Charges of plagiarism are resolved through internal disciplinary proceedings (which students usually agree to be bound by when they enter a course).
Generally, although plagiarism is often loosely referred to as theft or stealing, it has not been prosecuted as a criminal matter in the law courts, according to Stuart Green. Likewise, plagiarism has no standing as a criminal offense in the common law. Instead, claims of plagiarism are a civil law matter; acts that constitute plagiarism are in some instances treated as copyright infringement, unfair competition, or a violation of the doctrine of moral rights.
[edit]
Frequency of plagiarism

There is little academic research into the frequency of plagiarism. Any research that has taken place has focused on universities (higher education). There are no published statistics for the school or college (further education) sectors; awarding bodies do not maintain statistics on plagiarism.
Of the forms of cheating (including plagiarism, inventing data and cheating during an exam), students admit to plagiarism more than any other. However, this figure decreases considerably when students are asked about the frequency of "serious" plagiarism (such as copying most of an assignment, or purchasing a complete paper from a website – 20% and 10%). Recent use of specialist detection software (see below) has given a more accurate picture of prevelance.
[edit]
Practical advice

Plagiarism is sometimes difficult to avoid in writing, because writers are not always consciously aware of the source of the wording, or the source of the idea. To ensure that a writer will avoid plagiarism, it is necessary to keep track of the sources used, and record them accurately. In past years, when students copied extracts from books onto index cards or notebooks by hand, it was customary both to rephrase the idea, so it could be used in the authors words and properly credited, and also copy what seemed to be useful quotations, so they could be quoted with a proper source. In working with photocopy or print out, it is normally easier, usually with different color markers. When working with computer files on the screen, it is advisable to employ the annotation or comment features of the software. In any case, it is necessary to ensure that the notes are clear, that the photocopied or downloaded material includes the name and date of the source; that when working with online material, the date and URL are always recorded. The use of reference management software can be helpful in keeping track of the material. When working with sources other than book and articles, it is necessary to keep track of the sources, and the details are explained in the style manuals.
[edit]
Unintentional Plagiarism on the Internet
Very well known works are often used without citation or attribution, but this does not mean that the practice is either permissable or desirable. Some works are very well known in one country but little known in other countries. Authors may quote or adapt works which do not need attribution in their country. Authors may then put such unoriginal work onto the Internet without realizing the need for attribution.
[edit]
Organizational publications

Plagiarism is presumably not an issue when organizations issue collective unsigned works since they do not assign credit for originality to particular people[1], there is no question about taking credit for someone else's ideas. These are not original works of research, and necessarily provide a summary of other's work. As the academic level increases, so will the quotation marks and footnotes. But even a textbook will not use a direct quote with some sort of appropriation. "As Jefferson said in the Declaration of independence,..." However, even such a book does not make use of words, phrases or paragraphs from another text, or follow too closely the other text's arrangement and organization.
Within an organization, in its own working documents, standards are looser but not non-existent. If someone helped with a report, they expect to be credited. If a paragraph comes from a law report, a citation is expected to be written down.
Technical manuals routinely copy facts from other manuals without attribution, because they assume a common spirit of scientific endeavor (as evidenced, for example, in "open source" projects in software) in which scientists freely share their work. The Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications Third Edition (2003) by Microsoft does not even mention plagiarism, nor does Science and Technical Writing: A Manual of Style, Second Edition (2000) by Philip Rubens. The line between permissible literary and impermissible source code plagiarism, though, is apparently quite fine. As with any technical field, computer programming makes use of what others have contributed to the general knowledge.
It is common for university researchers to rephrase and republish their own work, tailoring it for different academic journals, and often also for a newspaper article, in order to disseminate their work to the widest possible interested public. However, it must be borne in mind that these researchers also obey limits: if half an article is the same as a previous one, it will be rejected. one of the functions of the process of peer review in academic writing is to spot such errors.
Public figures commonly use anonymous speech writers. However, if a speech uses copied material, it is the public figure who may well be embarrassed. In 1988, Delaware Senator Joe Biden was forced out of that year's US Presidential race (but remained in the US Senate) when it was discovered that a part of one of his campaign speeches contained plagiarism.
[edit]
Famous accusations and examples of plagiarism

[edit]
Academia and Scholarship
Numerous passages of Robert Mason's 1983 Vietnam War memoir Chickenhawk were copied, almost word-for-word, by Charles Sasser and Ron Alexander in their 2001 book, Taking Fire.[citation needed]
James A. Mackay, a Scottish historian, was forced to withdraw all copies of his biography of Alexander Graham Bell from circulation in 1998 because he plagiarized the last major work on the subject, a 1973 work. Also accused of plagiarizing material on biographies of Mary Queen of Scots, Andrew Carnegie, and Sir William Wallace, he was forced to withdraw his next work, on John Paul Jones, in 1999 for an identical reason. [2] [3]
Psychology professor René Diekstra author of popular books, left Leiden University in 1997 after accusations of plagiarism. Proceedings continued as of 2003, with Diekstra contesting a report about him on this matter.[citation needed]
Historian Stephen Ambrose has been criticized for incorporating passages from the works of other authors into many of his books. He was first accused in 2002 by two writers for copying portions about World War II bomber pilots from Thomas Childers's The Wings of Morning in his book The Wild Blue. [4] After Ambrose admitted to the errors, the New York Times found further unattributed passages, and "Mr. Ambrose again acknowledged his errors and promised to correct them in later editions." [5]
Marks Chabedi, a professor at the University of the Witwatersrand in South Africa, plagiarized his doctoral thesis. He used a work written by Kimberly Lanegran at the University of Florida and copied it nearly verbatim before submitting it to The New School. When Lanegran discovered this, she launched an investigation into Chabedi. He was fired from his professorship, and The New School revoked his Ph.D.[1]
Author Doris Kearns Goodwin interviewed author Lynne McTaggart in her 1987 book The Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys, and she used passages from McTaggart's book about Kathleen Kennedy. In 2002, when the similarities between Goodwin's and McTaggart's books became public, Goodwin stated that she had an understanding that citations would not be required for all references, and that extensive footnotes already existed. Many doubted her claims, and she was forced to resign from the Pulitzer Prize board. [2] [3] [4]
A University of Colorado investigating committee found Ethnic Studies professor and activist Ward Churchill guilty of multiple counts of plagiarism, fabrication, and falsification. The Chancellor has recommended Churchill's dismissal to the Board of Regents. The action is currently pending Churchill's appeal.
A mathematician and computer scientist Dǎnuţ Marcu claims to have published over 378 original paper in various scientific publications. A number of his recent papers have been proven to be exact copies of papers published earlier by other people. [5]
Former President Jimmy Carter was accused by a former Middle East diplomat for publishing the diplomat's maps in his new book Palestine: Peace, Not Apartheid without permission or attribution.[6]
[edit]
Computer Games
Atari's video game Pong was accused by Magnavox of being a copy of the Odyssey's tennis game. Nolan Bushnell saw Ralph Baer's version at a 1972 electronics show in Burlingame, California. Bushnell then founded Atari and established Pong as its featured game. "Baer and Magnavox filed suit against Bushnell and Atari in 1973 and finally reached an out-of-court settlement in 1976. It marked the end for Odyssey and the beginning of the Atari age." [7] [6]
[edit]
Film
The 1922 film Nosferatu was an unauthorized adaptation of Bram Stoker's novel Dracula. Stoker's widow sued the producers of Nosferatu, and had many of the film's copies destroyed (although some remain).
The 1990 movie Hardware plagiarised wholesale from the 2000AD one-shot story "SHOK!". Following legal action, the filmmakers agreed to amend the credits to read that the movie was "inspired by" the comic strip.
Plagiarism is common in Bollywood. Music composers such as Pritam and Anu Malik have been often accused of lifting tunes from all over the world. The pages provide a partial list of tunes that these composers have plagiarised.
[edit]
Journalism
In 1999, writer and television commentator Monica Crowley allegedly plagiarized part of an article she wrote for the Wall Street Journal (August 9, 1999), called "The Day Nixon Said Goodbye." The Journal ran an apology the same week. Timothy Noah of Slate Magazine later wrote of the striking similarities in her article to phrases Paul Johnson used in his 1988 article for Commentary called "In Praise of Richard Nixon". [7]
New York Times reporter Jayson Blair plagiarized articles and manufactured quotations in stories, including stories regarding Jessica Lynch and the Beltway sniper attacks. He and several editors from the Times resigned in June 2003.[citation needed]
Moorestown Township, New Jersey, high-school student Blair Hornstine had her admission to Harvard University revoked in July 2003 after she was found to have passed off speeches and writings by famous figures, including Bill Clinton, as hers in articles she wrote as a student journalist for a local newspaper.
Long-time Baltimore Sun columnist Michael Olesker resigned on January 4, 2006, after being accused of plagiarizing other journalists' articles in his columns.
Conservative blogger Ben Domenech, soon after he was hired to write a blog for the Washington Post in 2006, was found to have plagiarized a number of columns and articles he'd written for his college newspaper and National Review Online, lifting passages from a variety of sources ranging from well-known pundits to amateur film critics. After initially blaming any wrongdoing on past editors, Domenech eventually resigned and apologized.
Ann Coulter has been accused of plagiarism, and the Universal Press Syndicate is examining her articles.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
 
A legitimate question. In response, I will post this:
A legitimate reply, however that's a little extreme.. I have yet to see someone use a quote that long.. Normal articles on news site are never (or rarely) that long. If you posted a reasonably long quote without giving your opinion, I wouldn't find anything wrong with it. However, one has to use judgement.. Posting-and-running without spamming is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion.

If we take this complaint for exemple, marden received an infraction because of this:

Originally Posted by marden View Post
Man held in terror plot on mall near Rockford

By Rudolph Bush and Jeff Coen, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune staff reporters Charles Sheehan and Sara Olkon contributed to this report
Published December 9, 2006
A 22-year-old man's alleged plot to stage a deadly terrorist attack in Rockford days before Christmas was marked by violent intentions but no chance of success, according to federal charges released Friday.

A Muslim convert intent on "jihad," Derrick Shareef plotted to use hand grenades and a pistol to kill shoppers at the CherryVale Shopping Center outside of Rockford, authorities charged.

But federal agents and an undercover informant followed him from the plot's outset, U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald said Friday. Authorities didn't specify how they originally learned of Shareef.

Many elements of Shareef's alleged plot, including the idea to attack the mall, came from the informant, the charges said.

Shareef acted alone, and the public was never in any danger, authorities said.

Throughout the plot, he never had any weapons or the money to obtain them, Fitzgerald said.

But he did have violent intent, authorities said.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...alnearwest-hed

Why didn't he convert to Christianity if he wanted to commit terrorism?

Should we expect a statement from CAIR on this?
The reply was:
Originally Posted by Oreo Cookie
His own contribution were two measly sentences and instead of adding a just link, he pasted half of the article -- instead of quoting relevant parts. That's a clear rule 8 violation since the genuine content/copied content ratio.

So marden, take the hints and change your posting style.
Come on.. the article was at least three times longer than what he quoted, yet it failed to fall under the rule. The quote wasn't that long... I don't see a single problem with this post, yet he was sanctionned, and the subsequent topic in the feedback section was closed, confirming what people have said in the present thread...
     
Baninated
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:45 AM
 
It seems clear that there are several members of this community that are rather upset at the handling of Oreo by Marden.

Perhaps the Modship should take notice of this?
     
Clinically Insane
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Dec 11, 2006, 03:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
A legitimate reply, however that's a little extreme.. I have yet to see someone use a quote that long..
Marden has had to divide his quote-sprees into two or three posts before to get around the word limit. I just chopped the Wikipedia article off halfway.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Normal articles on news site are never (or rarely) that long. If you posted a reasonably long quote without giving your opinion, I wouldn't find anything wrong with it.
I do. A news article is not a legitimate form of discussion. To reference a news article in the process of making a point is one thing — to just vomit out somebody else's words in lieu of saying something yourself is annoying and unproductive.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Come on.. the article was at least three times longer than what he quoted, yet it failed to fall under the rule. The quote wasn't that long... I don't see a single problem with this post, yet he was sanctionned, and the subsequent topic in the feedback section was closed, confirming what people have said in the present thread...
 
As I understand it, the length of the quote isn't what's at issue here. It's the scarcity of actual content. I can't really respond to a quote by Ann Coulter — she isn't here to participate in the conversation. If you want to just regurgitate everything you read rather than converse, a blog would be more appropriate.

(I do see some value in posts that are really just informative. But most of the posts that fall under this rule aren't that type, and it's too hard for the rules to clearly distinguish between informative posts and flamebait.)
( Last edited by Chuckit; Dec 11, 2006 at 03:28 AM. )
Chuck
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Dec 11, 2006, 03:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
It seems clear that there are several members of this community that are rather upset at the handling of Oreo by Marden.

Perhaps the Modship should take notice of this?
 
I think that maybe if people stopped taking everything the mods do so freakin' personally and put down the pitchforks, the mods might give more of a damn what they have to say.
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Dec 11, 2006, 04:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I do. A news article is not a legitimate form of discussion. To reference a news article in the process of making a point is one thing — to just vomit out somebody else's words in lieu of saying something yourself is annoying and unproductive.
Why not? The quote is not part of the discussion, it's there to spark a discussion. It's called sharing. You find something funny, informative, or provocative, and you post it there for other to read and discuss if they want. What's wrong with that? Why does it matter that the OP doesn't participate in the discussion if he has nothing particular to say, and just wanted to show other people what he found while browsing?
Originally Posted by ChuckIt
Marden has had to divide his quote-sprees into two or three posts before to get around the word limit. I just chopped the Wikipedia article off halfway.
Well, I seldom frequent the PL so I haven't been witness of such long post, but if I had, I would have found it annoying. But even short quotes like the one I gave in exemple have been sanctionned...
( Last edited by FireWire; Dec 11, 2006 at 04:54 AM. )
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 05:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
 
A legitimate question. In response, I will post this:
Looks like one of Tali's posts. Lets not exaggerate shall we Chuck.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 05:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
 
I think that maybe if people stopped taking everything the mods do so freakin' personally and put down the pitchforks, the mods might give more of a damn what they have to say.
If the mods would actually admit to wrong doing once in awhile, people wouldn't take everything they do so personally. Esp when it USUALLY IS personal.

It's easy for me to say "It wasn't personal"
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 05:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Why not? The quote is not part of the discussion, it's there to spark a discussion. It's called sharing. You find something funny, informative, or provocative, and you post it there for other to read and discuss if they want. What's wrong with that? Why does it matter that the OP doesn't participate in the discussion if he has nothing particular to say, and just wanted to show other people what he found while browsing? Well, I seldom frequent the PL so I haven't been witness of such long post, but if I had, I would have found it annoying. But even short quotes like the one I gave in exemple have been sanctionned...
The fact is a few other members do this exact same thing and no one bitches. It's just the fact that MARDEN is doing it. And everyone in this thread that is complaining about it dislikes marden.

It has very little to do with the act.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 06:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Marden has had to divide his quote-sprees into two or three posts before to get around the word limit. I just chopped the Wikipedia article off halfway.
OH NOS! And you talk about us taking everything so personally. You are bitching about THE WAY SOMEONE IS QUOTING!! Do you even read what you post?
I do. A news article is not a legitimate form of discussion. To reference a news article in the process of making a point is one thing — to just vomit out somebody else's words in lieu of saying something yourself is annoying and unproductive.
Only because you don't like marden. Why aren't you bitching about Tali when he does it? The time before marden even did this Tali was constantly doing it. Yet why didn't ANYONE complain about Tali? And he did do it A LOT.
As I understand it, the length of the quote isn't what's at issue here. It's the scarcity of actual content. I can't really respond to a quote by Ann Coulter — she isn't here to participate in the conversation. If you want to just regurgitate everything you read rather than converse, a blog would be more appropriate.
Yes you can respond to what she said regardless of her being here. People do it to Bush all the time.
(I do see some value in posts that are really just informative. But most of the posts that fall under this rule aren't that type, and it's too hard for the rules to clearly distinguish between informative posts and flamebait.)
Flaimbait? AHAHAHAHAHHA Chuckit no need to drama it up.

We get it, you don't like marden.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
It seems clear that there are several members of this community that are rather upset at the handling of Oreo by Marden.

Perhaps the Modship should take notice of this?
Perhaps Oreo should be disallowed to give marden infractions. I mean marden isn't the only person complaining about this. Oreo obviously has a chip on his shoulder. If I was in his position, the first time this was brought up I would have distanced myself from Marden and let other mods take care of reports against him. That way no one can call shenanigans. After all, if what marden is doing is so wrong other mods will give him such treatment right?
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 06:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
I agree with that. However, in real life, this mostly applies to situation that happened between two individual, without the whole office knowing about this. As everything we do here is public, I think that sanctions or discussion about a sanction should be public.
News spread through offices as rumors. There is no black board dishing you this week's gossip.
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
A little bit like the justice system, records are public. If you go to court to discuss your case, everything is public. As for the original sanction, I think it would be a good thing if it was made public from the start, so the members would learn from example (Ex: post edited by: Mod X. Member Y received an infraction/ban for this post, for "this reason").
MacNN is a business not some dwarf state democracy. The system works fine for 99 % of the members and most of the exchanges are respectful -- even if the members disagree with a decision. They know a single infraction or warning has no effect on what they do here.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 06:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
The fact is a few other members do this exact same thing and no one bitches. It's just the fact that MARDEN is doing it. And everyone in this thread that is complaining about it dislikes marden.

It has very little to do with the act.
BS. I've given other members infractions/warnings for rule 8 violations. The only difference between them and marden is that they don't post here and whine for being picked on.

So stop perpetuating myths, it's not just marden.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 06:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
BS. I've given other members infractions/warnings for rule 8 violations.
Would you point out where i have said otherwise? I was referring to BEFORE the marden fiasco. I wasn't talking about YOU.
The only difference between them and marden is that they don't post here and whine for being picked on.
We just know about the ones you did against marden. And a good amount of people in this forum simply don't think what you did was legit. If you'd like to paste all the other infractions you've handed out. I am sure we can go over those if you'd like.

And BTW it's the condescending tripe like calling a valid complaint a "whine" that gets you no respect.

The condescending mod bit needs to go. You guys act like this is a class system or something. Get over it.

Again would you have ANY problem with being disallowed to give marden infractions? I mean if there was nothing personal there it should be no big deal right?
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:19 AM
 
Kevin, how about this:

You said in respect to the "Rob" problem that he has to change, and accept the rules around here.

Why does not the same apply to marden ?
His posting style is frowned upon by many, not only the mods. They have explained it over and over again. Him continuing to post threads that come close to a rule 8 violation is IMO a mockery. He knows what he is doing, and he is a repeat offender, just like Rob.

So why exactly is marden the victim here, and Rob the offender ?

-t
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by what_the_heck View Post
Kevin, how about this:

You said in respect to the "Rob" problem that he has to change, and accept the rules around here.

Why does not the same apply to marden ?
I never said marden didn't have to abide by the rules.
His posting style is frowned upon by many, not only the mods. They have explained it over and over again. Him continuing to post threads that come close to a rule 8 violation is IMO a mockery. He knows what he is doing, and he is a repeat offender, just like Rob.
And my point was so has many other people in here. And when marden stopped breaking the rule 8 violation and started giving his opinion. People started complaining about how much he pasts...

My complaint here is this is partisan cry-babying. I never once said marden didn't have to follow the rules.
So why exactly is marden the victim here, and Rob the offender ?
Read above. But one thing that does separate them is, most of Rob's offenses are those of a personal attack. Hate filled posts.

You can't really compare the two.

Marden has many times ADAPTED to the rules. Rob always thumbs his nose up at them.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
MacNN is a business not some dwarf state democracy.
For me, this is the fundamental issue that the complainers here seem not to recognize. If you don't like the way a business operates, you don't try to invoke your democratic rights; you stop shopping at the store.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
The fact is a few other members do this exact same thing and no one bitches. It's just the fact that MARDEN is doing it. And everyone in this thread that is complaining about it dislikes marden.

It has very little to do with the act.
Almost no one is complaining about it Kevin.

If you hadn't noticed this thread was started as an anti-complaint.

The only reason we are talking about the rule in this thread is because you keep attacking it.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
For me, this is the fundamental issue that the complainers here seem not to recognize. If you don't like the way a business operates, you don't try to invoke your democratic rights; you stop shopping at the store.
That is fine if that is what they are saying.

And I have no problem with that.

But don't say this, then act like you are acting righteous in your decisions or that you are doing the Right Thing™
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
And a good amount of people in this forum simply don't think what you did was legit.
Seems to me like whether or not it was legit is irrelevant. MacNN can operate however it wishes to. I seriously doubt the powers that be who could influence any change over the mod structure here care one bit about complaints about unfairness coming from the political lounge of a forum designed to address Mac issues.

If you don't like it, you really only have one option. Or, stop getting so worked up over it. It's only a forum.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Almost no one is complaining about it Kevin.

If you hadn't noticed this thread was started as an anti-complaint.

The only reason we are talking about the rule in this thread is because you keep attacking it.
I am not just talking about this thread subego. This thread isn't on a island of its own.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Seems to me like whether or not it was legit is irrelevant. MacNN can operate however it wishes to. I seriously doubt the powers that be who could influence any change over the mod structure here care one bit about complaints about unfairness coming from the political lounge of a forum designed to address Mac issues.

If you don't like it, you really only have one option. Or, stop getting so worked up over it. It's only a forum.
Again if this is what the mods have to say I will accept it. If they want to say "we don't care if it's fair or not" atleast it would be HONEST.

But this isn't what they are saying Wisk.

And not all mods would agree to this I assure you.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 09:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
But this isn't what they are saying Wisk.
I realize that. Though, it still doesn't matter. It's still only an online forum and the mods can do whatever they choose.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 11:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post

And BTW it's the condescending tripe like calling a valid complaint a "whine" that gets you no respect.
Actually I thought it was more like making a valid complaint will elicit a "stop whining" comment from Kevin, as seen on many occasions. So I guess it comes down to who decides what's valid or not, hmm?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll follow your own advice in the future.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 11:36 AM
 
I suppose this thread serves as a good example on why the mods push for PMs versus public posting.

This thread seemed to degenerate into Kevin vs. Mods.

While I stand by my original post to have discussions about infractions in public this and other threads here show that wheels quickly fall of the cart.
Michael
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 11, 2006, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
I am not just talking about this thread subego. This thread isn't on a island of its own.
Well, you could understand my confusion.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
everyone in this thread that is complaining about it
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Perhaps Oreo should be disallowed to give marden infractions.
I think a cooling-off period wouldn't hurt anyone.

OC has a hotline to the other mods if there is something marden just has to get dinged for.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Perhaps Oreo should be disallowed to give marden infractions. I mean marden isn't the only person complaining about this. Oreo obviously has a chip on his shoulder. If I was in his position, the first time this was brought up I would have distanced myself from Marden and let other mods take care of reports against him. That way no one can call shenanigans. After all, if what marden is doing is so wrong other mods will give him such treatment right?
Kevin, this does seem like the right way to do it. I wonder why it hasn't occurred in this manner. Oreo?
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:01 PM
 
Just forget it bstone. Nothing is gonna happen.
     
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Dec 11, 2006, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Just forget it bstone. Nothing is gonna happen.
Not as long as you continue to approach this with personal attacks and hostility. Seriously, just slinging accusations left and right doesn't promote an atmosphere of reasonable discussion.
Chuck
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