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Kerrigan · Dec 12, 2006, 07:59 PM

I know it seems petty, because it is, but I've no other place to discuss an infraction I got a while ago. I'm convinced it was pointless, as the person who complained was clearly not even offended, and I got a patronizing PM from vmarks. He subsequently ignored my response and I had no way to discuss it with anyone.

I know this thread will be locked, but where else do I bring this up? This system is flawed.

And please, don't threaten me with a ban just because I called a person who makes quasi-homophobic remarks about me a "buffoon". MacNN is better than that.

Atheist · Dec 12, 2006, 08:03 PM

It's an internet forum... go outside and mingle with real humans in the flesh... it will give you some perspective.

Kerrigan · Dec 12, 2006, 08:09 PM

Brilliant advice, you've resolved everybody's complaints about this problematic system.

Blasphemy · Dec 12, 2006, 08:48 PM

fsck off moron Kerrigan. Stop bitching. PM another mod if vmarks doesn't want to hear your prattle.

besson3c · Dec 12, 2006, 09:00 PM

It's good that we have Blasphemy around for the sole purpose of sharing with us his unsolicited verdict on things... Just when I thought that having Kevin wasn't enough.

Kerrigan · Dec 12, 2006, 09:16 PM

What is happening to the feedback forum? All these locked threads, patronizing mods, inflamed comments, etc. Do you think I like having to enter this cesspool of pettiness?

Kerrigan · Dec 12, 2006, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Blasphemy

fsck off moron Kerrigan. Stop bitching. PM another mod if vmarks doesn't want to hear your prattle.

Which mod are you?

Rumor · Dec 12, 2006, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

It's good that we have Blasphemy around for the sole purpose of sharing with us his unsolicited verdict on things... Just when I thought that having Kevin wasn't enough.

At least Kevin is intelligent.

Kerrigan · Dec 12, 2006, 09:47 PM

Things are going so well in the Lounge, it's somewhat shocking to see how negative the feedback forum has become since these changes.

mduell · Dec 12, 2006, 10:41 PM

The process that tooki outlined in another thread was:
1) PM the mod who issued the infraction
2) PM another mod
3) Then whine in the forums

Kerrigan · Dec 12, 2006, 11:47 PM

Ok, thanks for that info

OreoCookie · 03:28 AM

So you are complaining about the infraction issued a month ago? It has already expired … so what's the stir?

PS Stop dishing out these petty insults, people.

Big Mac · Dec 13, 2006, 04:08 AM

Maybe infractions can be named something a bit more positive or just a little more fun - it seems people are bothered more by the word than its ramifications. How about, oh I don't know, a slap? So one could say, I just got a mod slap!

OreoCookie · Dec 13, 2006, 04:31 AM

Spanking?
[insert member] has just received a spanking

No, seriously, infractions are just as bad as when a mod tells a member via pm to cut out his/her incendiary behavior.

mac128k-1984 · Dec 13, 2006, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Spanking?
[insert member] has just received a spanking

Accept for the fact some members may like a spanking

Sayf-Allah · Dec 13, 2006, 12:13 PM

Having vmarks as a moderator in the political lounge is as good an idea as making me a moderator in the PL. It simply doesn't work. You can't have someone so obviously biased and with such extreme views on the obvious topics discussed there as a moderator.

I mean is it acceptable that a moderator calls a whole nation cowards and then goes on and gives Reuters an Arabic sounding name because he doesn't like them? Seriously?

If the pol lounge is to become a good place for discussion again he either needs to be removed from the moderator list (not only there) or someone equally extreme from "the other side" needs to be added to the moderator list. Now watch vmarks' cheerleaders enter the scene

Rumor · Dec 13, 2006, 12:19 PM

I disagree. His personal political views do not interfere with his moderator duties.

besson3c · Dec 13, 2006, 12:19 PM

You know what really works for me is sort of what already has been said: don't take anything here seriously at all. Just assume that everybody here is just a piece of work that doesn't really warrant your time and attention until they prove otherwise (if that even).

If you are coming here for civil discourse, give up... you won't find much more here than bickering, catty remarks, hostility, debates that center on increasing the volume rather than fine tuning an argument, etc. I've joined in here as well, I admit.

If you feel pissed off or insulted or the like, I suggest doing what I did and detach yourself, leaving MacNN mostly for entertainment only. It really is only an internet forum, it's just not that big a deal or that important a place to invest yourself over.

Sayf-Allah · Dec 13, 2006, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

I disagree. His personal political views do not interfere with his moderator duties.

If there would be moderator with similarly extreme views but from the other side I'd agree with you. At the moment there seems to be just him moderating that place. And it simply doesn't work.

besson3c · Dec 13, 2006, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

If there would be moderator with similarly extreme views but from the other side I'd agree with you. At the moment there seems to be just him moderating that place. And it simply doesn't work.

How do you define "work"?

I don't' think there is any moderator that can make that place actually "work", according to my personal definition in this context.

Except maybe Steve Guttenberg or something...

kick52 · Dec 13, 2006, 12:32 PM

go on IRC and talk/shout at him.

Kevin · Dec 13, 2006, 12:41 PM

Ah if Sayf-Allah only knew how many times vmarks has scolded me in private msg for things I have said in the PL....

I would say he was HARDER on those he agrees with than anything else.

Kevin · Dec 13, 2006, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

If there would be moderator with similarly extreme views but from the other side I'd agree with you. At the moment there seems to be just him moderating that place. And it simply doesn't work.

Huh? Oreo is all over the PL and usually disagrees with vmarks.

Rumor · Dec 13, 2006, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

If there would be moderator with similarly extreme views but from the other side I'd agree with you. At the moment there seems to be just him moderating that place. And it simply doesn't work.

Show me an instance where his personal views have conflicted with his moderation.

vmarks · Dec 13, 2006, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I know it seems petty, because it is, but I've no other place to discuss an infraction I got a while ago. I'm convinced it was pointless, as the person who complained was clearly not even offended, and I got a patronizing PM from vmarks. He subsequently ignored my response and I had no way to discuss it with anyone.

I know this thread will be locked, but where else do I bring this up? This system is flawed.

And please, don't threaten me with a ban just because I called a person who makes quasi-homophobic remarks about me a "buffoon". MacNN is better than that.

Hi. We discussed the infraction in PM. We reached the conclusion of the discussion.

The rule is not based on whether or not "the other person takes offense"

The rule is "personal attack."

You made one. You received a minor infraction. Life, and I, moved on.

Chuckit · Dec 13, 2006, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by vmarks

Hi. We discussed the infraction in PM. We reached the conclusion of the discussion.

The rule is not based on whether or not "the other person takes offense"

The rule is "personal attack."

And what is the definition of a "personal attack" if it doesn't even have to be offensive? Am I personally attacking you right now without even knowing it?

Kerrigan · Dec 13, 2006, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

If there would be moderator with similarly extreme views but from the other side I'd agree with you. At the moment there seems to be just him moderating that place. And it simply doesn't work.

I agree, it doesn't work. I've noticed that from time to time, people with Muslim/Leftist sympathies have to go into hiding from the PL lounge, to avoid surges of backlash against them. Not to mention, this goes on while people like PacHead are allowed to say that all middle easterners should be targets for nuclear attacks.

Dakar² · Dec 13, 2006, 01:28 PM

Well Pachead got banned from the PL so you can't complain about that too much.

Kevin · Dec 13, 2006, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

And what is the definition of a "personal attack" if it doesn't even have to be offensive? Am I personally attacking you right now without even knowing it?

Attacking a person instead of his arguement would be a personal attack.

Chuckit · Dec 13, 2006, 01:44 PM

If I note that you have a very eloquent writing style, am I attacking you (since that addresses you rather than any argument you make)? The point I'm making is, how is a personal attack a personal attack if the person doesn't feel attacked?

Kevin · Dec 13, 2006, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If I note that you have a very eloquent writing style, am I attacking you (since that addresses you rather than any argument you make)? The point I'm making is, how is a personal attack a personal attack if the person doesn't feel attacked?

Chuckit do you seriously have problems with figuring out what a personal attack is? Really?

turtle777 · Dec 13, 2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Chuckit do you seriously have problems with figuring out what a personal attack is? Really?

Chuckit, only an idiot like you would not know what a personal attack is.

See ?

[/kidding]

-t

Chuckit · Dec 13, 2006, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Chuckit do you seriously have problems with figuring out what a personal attack is? Really?

No. But I do have trouble figuring out what vmarks means when he says "personal attack," since apparently non-offensive statements are included, whereas they are not in the word as I know it.

vmarks · Dec 13, 2006, 05:59 PM

As I recall it, the post in question was trading slurs in an off topic fashion.

Kevin has been banned in the past for using similar slurs, an infraction seemed justified, regardless of how the recipient took it.

As for even-handedness, we've had threads here that sayf-allah and others participated in glorifying the memory of arch-terrorist Arafat, and supporting those allied with him. We've similarly had threads that exposed and ridiculed the positions of folks like PacHead.

People aren't banned for their opinions, instead we ridicule them or show them the error of their ways. I tend not to take action in threads I'm participating in, but if I participated on page 1 and have to take action on page 5 for example, I will.

I have no control over who chooses to take a break from posting of their own accord. Likewise, I can't force people who have gone inactive in the P/L to post on command just because you observe they've not posted in a while.

OreoCookie · Dec 13, 2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Having vmarks as a moderator in the political lounge is as good an idea as making me a moderator in the PL. It simply doesn't work.

vmarks does separate his duties as a mod from his political points of views. We don't see eye-to-eye on a number of issues, but he has my full respect and support for what he does in the PL. The fairy tale of a renegade mod abusing his powers is a myth that has been busted time and again.

Kevin · 07:17 PM

Depends on what you mean by abusing powers I would guess. I don't think any mod intentionally goes out of their way to do harm to someone no.

imitchellg5 · Dec 13, 2006, 07:05 PM

vmarks is under no contract to respond to anyone's private messages.

Kerrigan · Dec 13, 2006, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

vmarks is under no contract to respond to anyone's private messages.

Which is why I started a thread, asking what to do

besson3c · Dec 13, 2006, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Which is why I started a thread, asking what to do

If you really want our advice, here's mine: let it go. It really doesn't matter. Really. Not important.

Sayf-Allah · Dec 14, 2006, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

vmarks does separate his duties as a mod from his political points of views. We don't see eye-to-eye on a number of issues, but he has my full respect and support for what he does in the PL. The fairy tale of a renegade mod abusing his powers is a myth that has been busted time and again.

So you think it is OK for a moderator to call a whole nation cowards and then turn a name into an Arabic sounding name because he thinks they are "evil"?

I know that you guys need to look out for each other on here because the MacNN members will complain about everything but seriously. Is that OK what I mentioned above?

Kevin · 08:16 AM

Sayf how did what you just say contradict Oreo in any way? You are complaining about his political beliefs. Oreo is telling you vmarks's beliefs don't interfere with his modding. And it doesn't.

You however are attacking his mod abilities just because you don't like what he believes in.

Ironic.

BTW this is what vmarks said, that Sayf is over-reacting on

No, IAF are not threatening French forces. They're doing surveillance as they ought to, since the French UN forces refuse to enforce the resolution.

Perhaps the French ought to be vinters and bakers if soldiering is too scary.

If that is offending you Sayf, you'd really HATE being an American in this forum. You would be offended right and left.

And it's true! If France doesn't want to do the job they claimed they were going to, maybe they should do something else and leave it to someone that WILL.

NOTHING vmarks said was untrue.

OreoCookie · Dec 14, 2006, 08:49 AM

Ironically, Kevin, I have heard the same litany from you.

Sayf-Allah · Dec 14, 2006, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Ironically, Kevin, I have heard the same litany from you.

Well, now I'm really offended. You're comparing me to Kevin!

badidea · Dec 14, 2006, 10:27 AM

Hoho, Oreo should issue an infraction on himself!

Sayf-Allah · Dec 14, 2006, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by badidea

Hoho, Oreo should issue an infraction on himself!

.

Wiskedjak · Dec 14, 2006, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Sayf how did what you just say contradict Oreo in any way? You are complaining about his political beliefs. Oreo is telling you vmarks's beliefs don't interfere with his modding. And it doesn't.

You however are attacking his mod abilities just because you don't like what he believes in.

Ironic.

Is Sayf over-reacting here? Of course. But the real irony is that he's just trying to do the same thing you tried to do in the other Feedback thread: change the Mod structure.

Quite honestly, I think vmarks is an excellent mod with great reasoning skills. I've never seen him use his Mod powers to sway or win an argument. Though, if the P/L were an actual forum of debate, a moderator wouldn't be allowed to participate in the debate which he's moderating, for obvious reasons (I hope).

Sky Captain · Dec 14, 2006, 12:00 PM

I know where it's the exact polar opposite.
It rhymes with Crackaddict.

PacHead · Dec 14, 2006, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Not to mention, this goes on while people like PacHead are allowed to say that all middle easterners should be targets for nuclear attacks.

I don't believe I've ever said all, just the evil ones, however many that may be. Just wipe them out and get it done with, 'cause that's what's eventually going to happen anyhow. And what are you whining about ? I haven't even been in the PL for many months, since my ~~politically incorrect~~ completely rational and common sense views are frowned upon in this forum. If on the other hand, I was say for example a person with liberal ~~terrorist lover~~ views, I'd probably still be in the PL. So stop whining.

Kevin · Dec 14, 2006, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Ironically, Kevin, I have heard the same litany from you.

Example?

Kevin · Dec 14, 2006, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Is Sayf over-reacting here? Of course. But the real irony is that he's just trying to do the same thing you tried to do in the other Feedback thread: change the Mod structure.

No, he has in the past, and currently tries to get vmarks either not have mod status in the PL, or not be able to post in the PL. I've never tried to get a mod from stopping posting somewhere, or have it so they can't mod.