[Tiresias]

Why is this guy Cash getting banned on sight? His posts seem perfectly okay to me.

I'm not asking for nitty-gritty details, just wondering what the perm ban policy is. Like what, no second chances with good behaviour? It just seems pointless and kinda hardass. It not like he can't just sign up and not give away who he is.


And no, I am not Cash. Just curious.

[starman]

I've pretty much kept out of Matters of State around here, but I gotta agree - Cash's ban this time around seemed a little excessive.

I know the drill, I understand the problems. Hell, I've been here longer than most mods.

The thing is, as obnoxious as Rob has been in the past, he goes away for a while, posts something interesting, and then BANHAMMER.

I wonder sometimes if people just enjoy egging him on.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by starman 

I wonder sometimes if people just enjoy egging him on.

Without a doubt. If anything, it helps increase the speed of the Hammer.

[reader50]

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

Why is this guy Cash getting banned on sight? His posts seem perfectly okay to me.

I'm not asking for nitty-gritty details, just wondering what the perm ban policy is. Like what, no second chances with good behavior?

He's had about a hundred chances. Eventually, we just gave up and ban when we realize who he is, or he otherwise gets heated up enough to draw attention to himself. It varies by staff member. No one is doing daily searches of new accounts, trying to spot him.

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

It just seems pointless and kinda hardass. It not like he can't just sign up and not give away who he is.

He is most experienced at that, and many new accounts have gone on for some time before the clues added up, or until he lost it over say, new iMacs. This approach could work.

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

And no, I am not Cash. Just curious.

We know you're not Cash. We know many things.

[turtle777]

Why not immediate temp bands everytime he freaks out.

Give him 2 or 4 weeks off, then let him come back as long as he behaves.

Essentially, it's not gonna be much different that what's happening now, except the hypocrisy of letting him stay for a while until some mod decids it's enough again.

-t

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by reader50 

He's had about a hundred chances. Eventually, we just gave up and ban when we realize who he is, or he otherwise gets heated up enough to draw attention to himself. It varies by staff member. No one is doing daily searches of new accounts, trying to spot him.

He is most experienced at that, and many new accounts have gone on for some time before the clues added up, or until he lost it over say, new iMacs. This approach could work.

Thanks for the explanation.

Originally Posted by reader50 

We know you're not Cash. We know many things.

This part makes me uneasy.

[starman]

I can understand the mods' frustrations. If you temp ban him, he creates a new account. It's like whack a mole.

I can't come up with a good solution because this never happens on our boards. When we ban someone, they're gone.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by starman 

I can understand the mods' frustrations. If you temp ban him, he creates a new account. It's like whack a mole.

I think you mean perma ban, not temp ban.

He never gets temp bans. And THAT'S the problem.
Perma bans are neither effective nor necessary. None of the stuff he does warrants a permanent removal from the boards.

The whole perma ban thing only developed when dealing with him, when the mods where frustrated at his registering new nicks. At that time, there was no rule that if you circumvent the temp ban, that you're out, banned for live. They made up the rule on the fly, and retroactively applied it to Cash.

Yes, they gave him a chance to come back, but it was a mockery of a chance. They expected him to be completely toned down, behaving like WDlove. Of course, Rob got one of his regular spasms, and the mods took it immediately as a sign that he has NOT changed AT ALL. Bullsh!t.

Just give him time outs everytime he crosses the border, and let him come back after a couple of days / weeks of rest.

The current policy is complete and utter bullcrap.

-t

[MacosNerd]

ahh the semi-annual, ban policy question.

Paging besson, please come to the feedback lounge.

[starman]

Yes, you're right.

I run a VB board, I know you can issue temp bans, I do it all the time.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Did cash just DDoS us?
just kidding

[Atomic Rooster]

vmarks bans anyone who mentions anything about anti-zionism. First he'll stalk you around, do searches on your posts and get enough little things to finally give you a temp ban and so on.

Disscusting,

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Just give him time outs everytime he crosses the border, and let him come back after a couple of days / weeks of rest.

The current policy is complete and utter bullcrap.

-t

So are the mods to play time-limited wack-a-mole? Or does cash respect time-limited bans?

[ajprice]

Hmm, so it took a Lounge thread called "Cash's new baby" to get to 2 pages long before 'we realize who he is' and the banhammer came into action. Not having a go, I'm sure you're all busy little hampstors, but I did laugh at that.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

So are the mods to play time-limited wack-a-mole?

They are already doing this, no change there.

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Or does cash respect time-limited bans?

Dunno. Bu recently, he's had a lot of self-restraint. He came on posted, didn't cuz, and then when he got banned, stayed away for weeks or months.

I think he'd respect the temp-bans if their length is reasonable.

But in the past, he would get banned for stuff that others would only get an infraction for. (e.g. calling someone an idiot).

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ajprice 

Hmm, so it took a Lounge thread called "Cash's new baby" to get to 2 pages long before 'we realize who he is' and the banhammer came into action. Not having a go, I'm sure you're all busy little hampstors, but I did laugh at that.

I might not be "we". I knew that it was Rob right from the first post I saw here in the Feedback Lounge, the one about the archiving. At that point, I had not even seen his thread about his new baby.

-t

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

They are already doing this, no change there.

time limited wack-a-mole = they stop after 2 weeks, etc., so yeah, that'd be a change.

[Randman]

I think it was a bit much to ban him out right like that. Give him time and he'll cut his own head off. But for now, he was being a good citizen. If anyone deserved a vacation, it was the few posters who were trying to incite something. Banning Rob here and letting them go with nary a slap on the hand is lousy moderating to me.

[besson3c]

Hey guys, I'm here... What's going on?

[ajprice]

Originally Posted by Randman 

I think it was a bit much to ban him out right like that. Give him time and he'll cut his own head off. But for now, he was being a good citizen. If anyone deserved a vacation, it was the few posters who were trying to incite something. Banning Rob here and letting them go with nary a slap on the hand is lousy moderating to me.

[sek929]

His last few iterations have been very pleasant, to say the least.

His stereo is sweet, he has skillz in industrial design, and he can also fix cars and boats.

Very knowledgeable guy, it's a shame one or two mods won't get that chip off their shoulder.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by sek929 

His last few iterations have been very pleasant, to say the least.

Not really, he and Lat got into it when cash melted down regarding the GPU on the iMac.

Personally I don't care one way or another

[sek929]

Yeah I remember that one, hoo-boy!

Still nothing compared to what most members remember him as.

I say he was at his worst at least 5 years ago, which is a long time ago in internet time.

I think those that are annoyed by him seek him out, and that's part of the problem. There are PLENTY of people who respond positively to his threads.

[Super77]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I think he'd respect the temp-bans if their length is reasonable.

But in the past, he would get banned for stuff that others would only get an infraction for. (e.g. calling someone an idiot).

-t

Ding ding ding ding ding.

I would respect temp bans if I was treated REMOTELY reasonably, but instead I would receive temp bans for complete BS. Then, when the new iMac's horrid GPU came out, I was responding to people's inaccurate assessments, one by one. Meanwhile, on page 3, Lat told me to stop (for no reason whatsoever, as I was not breaking any rules).

I didn't even SEE this before he gave me a temp ban, which was complete crap. So I waited one month. Then I came back, and received another temp ban within a few days for something so trivial I can't even remember it.

However, so far, mods have been unable to restrain themselves from giving me temp bans for crap that other people would not even receive an infraction for. I'm not 'playing victim', I'm telling it how it is.

[Super77]

I know I'll be banned as soon as the mods realize who I am, but I'd like to point out WHY this forum is suffering and what can be done about it.

It's currently over-moderated. Mods are trigger happy, and temp ban first and ask questions later. Some bring up the point that it's like a ref in football, but it's not. If a ref consistently makes bad calls, they won't be a ref anymore. If a game seems biased, the fans will complain, and things will be checked out. Here, there are no checks and balances, only what the moderators/admins say, and anything to the contrary is 'whining' and thus banworthy. It's a catch22. If I respond to people who attack me, I'm fighting. If I report their posts when they're attacking me, I'm whining and being a pain in the ass. So what can you do? But the real problem is the banning mentality. I've come back multiple times without causing any problems, and posting anonymously, yet whenever I'm discovered, I am instantly banned. Is this 'right'?

I don't think it is, and obviously my perspective is biased, but I don't think it's right to ban anybody except spammers and people who threaten someone else physically. Banning someone 'forever' is so permanent, it is effectively murdering their personality and history here. I somewhat dislike Kevin. I have a strong dislike for Kilbey (oh nos ban me!), yet I don't think EITHER should be banned from these forums. What should happen is that when they circumvent rules, they should have been punished just like I was. I was blunt in my opinions, and I was honest in my posts. Did it piss some people off? Certainly. But that somehow translated into me getting the short end of the stick on several occasions. I was given a ban over 1 month long for calling a member by a username he had previously used for over THREE YEARS. What the hell? That's obviously stupid, and unfair. So by ignoring it, I was then stuck into 'bannination forever and ever and all eternity'. That's crap.

You should not be banning people forever. Unless someone is being EXTREMELY out of line, like talking about having sex with someone's sister, or butt****ing someone's wife, banning someone for 1 month is EXTREME overkill, and powertripping of the administration/mods. Do you think that teaches someone to behave? No. It does not. It teaches people to disrespect the people who run this place, and think that the rules are a complete joke, especially when people are banned/punished for not even BREAKING the rules, but purely being a smartass. It's stupid. Banning someone for a month for something harmless is like tasering someone for speeding. If you really wanted to make this place fair and even, you'd do something like have a rating system for offensive content:

Stage 1: Personal insults, being a dick but not technically breaking any rules like Kilbey is so good at doing: (24 hour ban)
Stage 2: Racism (on purpose, not the funny kind), acting like a complete asshole, etc: (3-5 day ban)
Stage 3: Impersonation, porn, or things of greater offensive magnitude: (2 week ban)
Stage 4: Threats, spammers, child molesters: (banned indefinitely)

Banning someone FOREVER, unless they've gravely offended someone by acting like a complete psychopath, is really uncalled for. Does it solve anything? Sure. It makes it easy to press a big red button, and prevent someone from ever being a part of this forum again. It removes any thought process, and any remotely interesting personalities. Some people have huge personalities, and they were the reason this place used to be great. Now... you've banned most of them, and the others left. Are you having fewer problems these days? Sure, probably, but it's also a hell of a lot more boring. Again, if you want to make this place truly great, you let big personalities come back. Keep people in check with relatively short ban periods which match the actual 'crime' they've committed, instead of some rolling "3 strikes and you're out of here forever for calling someone an asshole a few times" system like the current one.

Also, it might be a good idea to let people 'buy' their way back, or have to serve some sort of special punishments, or work release, which forces someone to do 3 photoshops of donkeys flying in airplanes a day, everyday, for 3 days, in order to come back. Or something along those sorts. Anyway, I'm sure I'll just be flamed since it's cool to be a hater, but whatever. The truth hurts. This place has lost it's luster, and it's NOT because of the members here, it's because of people who powertrip and ban interesting personalities from these forums.

[Big Mac]

I don't see the forum suffering. If you're not essentially completely out of line, or attempting to circumvent a long standing ban, you won't get banned.

[Super77]

Wrong.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Super77 

I know I'll be banned as soon as the mods realize who I am, but I'd like to point out WHY this forum is suffering and what can be done about it.

It's currently over-moderated. Mods are trigger happy, and temp ban first and ask questions later. Some bring up the point that it's like a ref in football, but it's not. If a ref consistently makes bad calls, they won't be a ref anymore. If a game seems biased, the fans will complain, and things will be checked out. Here, there are no checks and balances, only what the moderators/admins say, and anything to the contrary is 'whining' and thus banworthy. It's a catch22. If I respond to people who attack me, I'm fighting. If I report their posts when they're attacking me, I'm whining and being a pain in the ass. So what can you do? But the real problem is the banning mentality. I've come back multiple times without causing any problems, and posting anonymously, yet whenever I'm discovered, I am instantly banned. Is this 'right'?

I don't think it is, and obviously my perspective is biased, but I don't think it's right to ban anybody except spammers and people who threaten someone else physically. Banning someone 'forever' is so permanent, it is effectively murdering their personality and history here. I somewhat dislike Kevin. I have a strong dislike for Kilbey (oh nos ban me!), yet I don't think EITHER should be banned from these forums. What should happen is that when they circumvent rules, they should have been punished just like I was. I was blunt in my opinions, and I was honest in my posts. Did it piss some people off? Certainly. But that somehow translated into me getting the short end of the stick on several occasions. I was given a ban over 1 month long for calling a member by a username he had previously used for over THREE YEARS. What the hell? That's obviously stupid, and unfair. So by ignoring it, I was then stuck into 'bannination forever and ever and all eternity'. That's crap.

You should not be banning people forever. Unless someone is being EXTREMELY out of line, like talking about having sex with someone's sister, or butt****ing someone's wife, banning someone for 1 month is EXTREME overkill, and powertripping of the administration/mods. Do you think that teaches someone to behave? No. It does not. It teaches people to disrespect the people who run this place, and think that the rules are a complete joke, especially when people are banned/punished for not even BREAKING the rules, but purely being a smartass. It's stupid. Banning someone for a month for something harmless is like tasering someone for speeding. If you really wanted to make this place fair and even, you'd do something like have a rating system for offensive content:

Stage 1: Personal insults, being a dick but not technically breaking any rules like Kilbey is so good at doing: (24 hour ban)
Stage 2: Racism (on purpose, not the funny kind), acting like a complete asshole, etc: (3-5 day ban)
Stage 3: Impersonation, porn, or things of greater offensive magnitude: (2 week ban)
Stage 4: Threats, spammers, child molesters: (banned indefinitely)

Banning someone FOREVER, unless they've gravely offended someone by acting like a complete psychopath, is really uncalled for. Does it solve anything? Sure. It makes it easy to press a big red button, and prevent someone from ever being a part of this forum again. It removes any thought process, and any remotely interesting personalities. Some people have huge personalities, and they were the reason this place used to be great. Now... you've banned most of them, and the others left. Are you having fewer problems these days? Sure, probably, but it's also a hell of a lot more boring. Again, if you want to make this place truly great, you let big personalities come back. Keep people in check with relatively short ban periods which match the actual 'crime' they've committed, instead of some rolling "3 strikes and you're out of here forever for calling someone an asshole a few times" system like the current one.

Also, it might be a good idea to let people 'buy' their way back, or have to serve some sort of special punishments, or work release, which forces someone to do 3 photoshops of donkeys flying in airplanes a day, everyday, for 3 days, in order to come back. Or something along those sorts. Anyway, I'm sure I'll just be flamed since it's cool to be a hater, but whatever. The truth hurts. This place has lost it's luster, and it's NOT because of the members here, it's because of people who powertrip and ban interesting personalities from these forums.

Sorry Ca$h. I understand what you are saying, but ya know what? This is MacNN's playground, not yours. If they don't want your, quite often, rude attitude here, they don't have to have it. Remember a while back when you returned, but you were really polite and easy going with everyone? It was a pleasure reading your threads about your Accord and whatnot. Now, you come back, and if someone mentions the fact that your boat is being pulled by a SUV, you say " guess that makes me a fag according to most guys who tow things once every few years (see, that's why they need huge SUVs/trucks, because they tow their boat like every other year)." Now I can't speak for the staff, but I'd imagine that if you'd keep replies in the line of something like "Yeah, that's my buddy's CR-V. Believe it or not, I'm getting a hitch put on my Accord.", that you wouldn't be banned immediately after posting.

Edit: And yes, sometimes I do think that members can be a little harsh towards you, but there is a reason why they are. It has something to do with reputation.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Sorry Ca$h. I understand what you are saying, but ya know what? This is MacNN's playground, not yours.

Nobody is disputing this.

But Rob has a valid point: over-moderation and some ban-trigger happy mods.

I have seen Rob being banned for stuff that other members merely get an infraction for. Why ? Just because he has a history ?

All the pseudo "second chance" talk is pure hypocrisy. Every interaction with Rob is always measured and weighed by his past. Way to go to give someone a "second chance".

-t

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Nobody is disputing this.

But Rob has a valid point: over-moderation and some ban-trigger happy mods.

I have seen Rob being banned for stuff that other members merely get an infraction for. Why ? Just because he has a history ?

All the pseudo "second chance" talk is pure hypocrisy. Every interaction with Rob is always measured and weighed by his past. Way to go to give someone a "second chance".

-t

I agree with you. Like you say, he can't have a true second (more like twentieth) chance. But then again, he's shown himself to start making trouble time after time. I think the mods are letting him back in and post, but the moment he oversteps, he's banned, before he can go and call some kid a fag for driving an SUV. He has a history that tends to unfortunately repeat itself.

[besson3c]

I think that before we even think about the ban policy, we need to come to a collective understanding on the actual purpose of this forum. Seriously, what is it?

[reader50]

A pleasant place to nick time from work/school?

We do seem to get a lot of posts during times of day when most members will be in one place or the other.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by reader50 

A pleasant place to nick time from work/school?

We do seem to get a lot of posts during times of day when most people will be in one place or the other.

Heh, so the MacNN business spends money on servers and vBulletin licenses to basically provide us clowns with a place to play during the day? What do they get out of it?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What do they get out of it?

Uhm, dude, seriously, advertising $$$ ring a bell ?

-t

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think that before we even think about the ban policy, we need to come to a collective understanding on the actual purpose of this forum. Seriously, what is it?

Advertising revenue.

[reader50]

We also help people with Mac-related problems. A user without hacking experience is somewhat panicked by their HD no longer mounting on boot.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by reader50 

Last edited by reader50; Today at 04:41 AM (Reason:this post is offtopic)

Did you give yourself an infraction for that ?

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Uhm, dude, seriously, advertising $$$ ring a bell ?

-t

That was one of my presumptions too, but if that was really their objective, wouldn't it make sense to ban far less as to attract the strong personalities and the consequent traffic here?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That was one of my presumptions too, but if that was really their objective, wouldn't it make sense to ban far less as to attract the strong personalities and the consequent traffic here?

Hey, stop making sense in a forum that you don't own. That's not your job





-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by reader50 

We also help people with Mac-related problems. A user without hacking experience is somewhat panicked by their HD no longer mounting on boot.

So what aspect of this, if not ad revenue, makes it worth MacNN's while from a business standpoint? It would seem to me that the best course of action here is to do what is best for MacNN as a business. I think that if you were to adopt and/or stress this, there would be far less sense of entitlement and a general better understanding of the purpose of the rules. I get the sense that many people here think that MacNN is some sort of democratic altruistic play place that exists to serve whomever decides to make use of this forum, in or outside of the Mac community.

[Big Mac]

Perhaps I'm viewing the situation with rose colored glasses because I have never been on the receiving end of negative moderation, but I think the mods/admins are very fair. While a select few seem to think otherwise, I don't think that minor carping alone merits any serious reconsideration of how the forums are managed.

[besson3c]

Big Mac: I don't necessarily think so either, but the business purpose of these forums has always been made unclear, and I think this illumination would help in a few areas.

[Simon]

I agree with Big Mac. I have been here for a pretty long time. A while back there was one mod who was clearly not up to the job. But since he left I have encountered no problems whatsoever (with maybe one single exception). I usually stay out of the lounge, but that's because of all the nonsense in there, not the mods. And for the rest of the place, I think they are doing a very good job. Glenn especially deserves credit for an excellent job running this board.

I would rather exchange a few members than the mods or the board policies.

[ebuddy]

I can't speak for others' experiences, but I've been generally as outspoken as I wanted and so far have only received one slap from a moderator. I received this slap in responding harshly to one who has been temp-banned a couple of times here since then and has not yet calmed down. IMO, it was worth it. I was using my superior judge of character wisely and feel personally vindicated as if to say; "I told you so".

If you're repeatedly flame-baiting, you're going to get called to the carpet. If you're liberally name-calling, you're going to get called to the carpet. If you insist on doing these things, it really doesn't make sense to come back in and say; "they are being unfair to me... the problem with this forum is... (let's face it, you're no longer able to post in it)" nor is it fair to everyone esle who's edited their posts to tame them before hitting 'Submit Reply'. People who repeatedly break the rules to drag others down are not "strong personalities". They know exactly what they're doing and there's no reason the entire posting world has to repeatedly watch them implode on an internet forum.

Start a blog of your own.

[MacosNerd]

This thread is almost as entertaining as cash's boat thread. Regardless of what you think of the man, he certainly polarizes opinions here.

[subego]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I have seen Rob being banned for stuff that other members merely get an infraction for. Why ? Just because he has a history ?

Are these other members you speak of evading a ban at the time of their infraction?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by subego 

Are these other members you speak of evading a ban at the time of their infraction?

No, you misunderstood.

This happened when Rob got his 2nd (3rd, 4th... ?) chance. HE was NOT banned at that time.

-t

[Atheist]

I sure don't see what the big deal is. The guy wore out his welcome... good riddance. It's just a freakin' internet forum.... why does everyone get their panties in a mess?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I sure don't see what the big deal is. The guy wore out his welcome... good riddance. It's just a freakin' internet forum.... why does everyone get their panties in a mess?

Exactly the same could be said about those who are so adamant that he should be kept banned.

-t

[sek929]

The perpetual motion in these Rob thread could power Amareca™