[Laminar]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

I don't see the need for you two to keep bickering. knock it off, or an infraction for both of you. Laminar, last time I checked, your one infraction away from a short vacation, so be wise with what you say next okay?

edit: Off topic, so I took it to PM.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

I don't see the need for you two to keep bickering. knock it off, or an infraction for both of you. Laminar, last time I checked, your one infraction away from a short vacation, so be wise with what you say next okay?

Please note that YOU are not a moderator, and suggesting you are by this wording is not only inappropriate but may warrant its own infraction against you.

I personally think that the above discussion is about the main topic of the thread. It doesn't look like bickering, but rather point-by-point discussion. It may be "enthusiastic," but it surely isn't the snippy, immature kind of argument that I'd call "bickering."

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

I don't see the need for you two to keep bickering. knock it off, or an infraction for both of you. Laminar, last time I checked, your one infraction away from a short vacation, so be wise with what you say next okay?

I don't see the need for more forum police.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Really, it's my opinion that these suggestions will kill the boards. They won't be a fun place to be if everyone has to constantly tiptoe around being super nice to each other all of the time.

Just FTR and regardless of what one other poster claimed, I can assure you that none of what you wrote in that post came across as bickering to me. We discussed and apparently we disagree. No problem. I accept your point of view.

What I do not understand however is why you equate mature and decent conduct with "tiptoe around being super nice to each other all of the time". Appropriate behavior does not exclude honesty or disagreement. It's about a minimum amount of respect members are required to show for each other. I don't think that is too much to ask in a public forum.

[Simon]

I would like to point people to another feedback thread where a mod recently made a few interesting comments regarding the PWL.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

At the same time, we are a tech forum and leaving that section completely unmoderated, in my ever humble opinion, would reflect badly on MacNN. As it is now "ideological differences" between the two camps spill over into the other forums. If it was left as a free for all I can only imagine we'd have far more problems in that regard. These are topics that people are passionate about. We try to maintain some level of civility in the discourse.

As to having a "left leaning" mod for the PWL, well, we are a tech forum first and foremost, and as such I think promoting a new moderator based on their political views is... kinda dumb.

[emphasis mine]

So if this is a tech forum first and foremost and if there is spillover from a single non-tech forum into several technical forums, how does this make any sense? Why is that spillover tolerated? If this is a tech forum why is nonsense from one non-tech part allowed to spoil other technical areas?

The way I see it there are essentially three ways to consistently deal with the problem.
• Kill off the PWL. Ban political bickering. If it comes up, warn people and then (if they do it again) temp-ban them.
• Moderate the PWL and strictly enforce the rules there, i.e. no personal attacks, no insults. Crack down on any spillover, IOW warn and then temp-ban offenders.
• Stop moderating the PWL. Only remove illegal content. Obviously the bickering in there will reach insane levels. But if it is contained in there, so what. Obviously spillover will have to be watched even closer. Again warn offenders, then temp ban them.

What strikes me is that the current way of dealing with the PWL and political bickering in other forums is entirely inconsistent. First there was supposed to be a trash can. But not really. It was moderated just a tiny bit, so it's not entirely trash (IOW it also won't die by itself). Now there is some spillover because moderation in there is homeopathic. But this spillover at least in principle can't be tolerated because after all this is a tech board. Oh well, the spillover still somehow manages to stick around. And the offenders are somehow not really sanctioned either, because it appears many of them are still here and have repeatedly dragged their bickering into other areas. And this goes on and on and on.

Of course this is exaggerated, but I just wanted to point out how inconsistent the approach here is. Is this primarily a tech board or not? Is spillover an acceptable price to pay for having a single political forum within an otherwise tech-related board? Is the PWL going to be moderated or not? Are the rules the same within the PWL or not? Are the sanctions the same? Is moderation in there not any stricter because nobody wants to help vmarks out? And if nobody else wants to moderate it, why moderate it at all?

[ghporter]

As has been noted many times, we on staff are unpaid, doing this work on our own time. Which, I may add, is often very limited by that other thing called "life." I have some time off at the moment, but in a couple of weeks, I'll be up to my eyeballs in work and may not get to even poke my head in to the forums to see whether or not the still exist. That is perhaps an extreme example, but the basic truth is that we do not have the resources to be clock-like consistent in reviewing the forums. While that does contribute to allowing less than polite "discussions" to go on in the PWL, the rest of the forums generally don't suffer from that because the PWL exists and apparently attracts such bickering.

[Simon]

Here's a nice example. A poster posts his personal view in a rather blunt and silly way. Instead of pointing that out another member simply writes "you suck".

So why the personal attack? Because he gets away with it. This poster has made a habbit out of posting in an aggressive way and garnishing his posts with ad-hominem tough talk. But who's to blame he did it again? He didn't get slapped on the fingers for it the other times, so why not do it again over and over? Just another example of why letting a personal stab slip every once in a wile encourages some people to let themselves go in a completely immature way. Being 'nice' to one person sometimes comes at the cost of pissing off everybody else. Is that really worth it?

[Phileas]

Simon, I think in this case you're entirely overreacting. There's a difference between lightheartedness and attack.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Here's a nice example. A poster posts his personal view in a rather blunt and silly way. Instead of pointing that out another member simply writes "you suck".

Actually, I thought I WAS pointing that out.

I wrote that *the new MacBooks* said that he sucks.

It was a possibly not too thoroughly filed-out jab at what I saw as incredibly eloquent and well-thought-out, constructive...well, trolling.

It was an attempt at middle-school argument tactics, but it might be too rooted in my '80s school experience.

I suppose a simple "NO YUO" would have passed your mustering despite the completely identical content?

Originally Posted by Simon 

So why the personal attack? Because he gets away with it. This poster has made a habbit out of posting in an aggressive way and garnishing his posts with ad-hominem tough talk. But who's to blame he did it again? He didn't get slapped on the fingers for it the other times, so why not do it again over and over? Just another example of why letting a personal stab slip every once in a wile encourages some people to let themselves go in a completely immature way. Being 'nice' to one person sometimes comes at the cost of pissing off everybody else. Is that really worth it?

If I overstep the line in what I generally consider playful banter and a touch of sarcasm, I accept the occasional infraction.

I strongly suspect that the context of the past heated arguments over the MacBook Firewire issue is leading you to read something into my post that is most certainly not there.

You can go ahead and become the appointed PC police here. But be careful in what you ask for, and make sure to ask yourself how much of what you consider a problem is in fact YOUR problem.

People are different, and if you want a forum of tech droids, then I suggest you start weeding out and turning this thing into a repository as dead as the Apple Knowledge base.

[Simon]

No police necessary. There's moderation. And it should enforce the rules. The rules say no personal attacks. It's that simple. So please, spare me the excuses. As if this had anything to do with FW.

If you think mature and respectful discussions w/o any personal attacks are "dead" or "droid-like" I suggest you start growing up.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

No police necessary. There's moderation.

What is the point of this thread, then?



Ban the MacBooks! They said someone sucks! OMG

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Simon 

If you think mature and respectful discussions w/o any personal attacks are "dead" or "droid-like" I suggest you start growing up.

And your last post in this thread

C'mon Simon. Quit acting hypocritical!!!

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Here's a nice example. A poster posts his personal view in a rather blunt and silly way. Instead of pointing that out another member simply writes "you suck".

So why the personal attack? Because he gets away with it. This poster has made a habbit out of posting in an aggressive way and garnishing his posts with ad-hominem tough talk. But who's to blame he did it again? He didn't get slapped on the fingers for it the other times, so why not do it again over and over? Just another example of why letting a personal stab slip every once in a wile encourages some people to let themselves go in a completely immature way. Being 'nice' to one person sometimes comes at the cost of pissing off everybody else. Is that really worth it?

I have to agree with what the others have said here, so far. There was no personal attack here, merely a joking “”, in SH’s post.

If you want to talk about conductive conversation in tech forums, troll posts like the one SH was replying to are the ones that need weeding out.

[Railroader]

Yeah, I have to come to Spheric Harlot's defense on this one as well. I found his reply to an obvious troll to be humorous and the reason why I continuously return to these forums. Sterile, pure info-driven posting will kill this forum. And it is clearly superior to even Apple's support forums.

[MacTheRiverRat]

I can say from being a Veteran Yahoo stock message board wars that argueing on a message board is one of the biggest time killers I have ever seen. I can't begin to tell how many hours I have wasted argueing on the Yahoo message boards . What a UNproductive waste of time IMHO! Can anyone say " PISSING IN THE WIND CONTEST"
IMHO!

[sek929]

"PISSING IN THE CONTEST"

Is that like a pissing contest? Or pissing in the wind?

Edit: Let me just say that I haven't been able to help anyone with something Mac related since the advent of OSX, so you might as well just ban me right now since I only supply average banter.

[MacTheRiverRat]

" pissing in the wind contest"
imho!

Jezzz! I can't wait until I get 5 stars on my profile then I will be somebody.
Talk about waste of time! I think one could get on any number message boards on the internet and just say hello. Sure as the sun comes up there will be one or two who will want to argue about it.

[turtle777]

I can't believe the mods feel the need to censor this thread. Awesome.

How about just cutting out all the crap and bickering, rather then selective posts ?

Or even better, close it, since it has long run its course.

-t

[Simon]

The problem with calling that a joke is that jokes are usually funny. At least on one level. This post however was the result of a heated debate between several members and an Apple-apologist with a habit. A non-funny "joke" under these circumstances? Nope, don't think so.

[Spheric Harlot]

Holy disappearing posts, Batman!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

The problem with calling that a joke is that jokes are usually funny. At least on one level. This post however was the result of a heated debate between several members and an Apple-apologist with a habit.

Am I going to report that as a personal attack? It certainly wasn't a flippant quip... Hmm, what to do, what to do...

Maybe I'll just let it stand as testament to the fact that you have a problem dealing with the idea that there are *real* people, with Genuine People Personalities™, on the other end of these posts.

Originally Posted by Simon 

A non-funny "joke" under these circumstances? Nope, don't think so.

Maybe it wasn't particularly funny, but it's obvious from the responses both in this thread and in the original thread that you're the only one who didn't get it.

I repeat: I strongly suspect that a simple "NO YUO" would have passed your muster, despite the virtually identical content/connotation.

I think it's time you let it drop.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I think it's time you let it drop.

I will, but I must add this last thing to your defense: I LOL'd when I read it.

There, I am done with that topic.

[Simon]

So lately I've noticed that several personal attacks (in different forums) were deleted by mods. Is this a new policy? Is this how moderation plans on treating the issue from now on?

I'm interested, because I believe you can argue both ways. Deleting ad-hominem nonsense prevents replies which can lead to endless bickering and flame wars. Keeping them there (but possibly adding a mod comment) OTOH makes moderation more transparent and serves as an example for newcomers of what is tolerated and what isn't.

So, is this just one mod's way of dealing with things or is this a general policy shift?

(I would have liked to include examples but for obvious reasons that's not possible)

[Oisín]

It’s not uncommon for such deletions to happen. The mod who deletes them will usually chime in with a, “Thread cleaned up. Now fight nice, children”.

The only problem I have with this kind of moderation is that I always end up missing all the fun.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

The only problem I have with this kind of moderation is that I always end up missing all the fun.

Hehe.

In the cases I've noticed lately the posts were entirely deleted but there was no moderator comment at all. That's why I was wondering if there's some kind of new policy.

[Laminar]

You're going to have to link to the posts in question.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Simon 

So lately I've noticed that several personal attacks (in different forums) were deleted by mods. Is this a new policy? Is this how moderation plans on treating the issue from now on?

I'm interested, because I believe you can argue both ways. Deleting ad-hominem nonsense prevents replies which can lead to endless bickering and flame wars. Keeping them there (but possibly adding a mod comment) OTOH makes moderation more transparent and serves as an example for newcomers of what is tolerated and what isn't.

So, is this just one mod's way of dealing with things or is this a general policy shift?

(I would have liked to include examples but for obvious reasons that's not possible)

This has been part of the operating procedure since I have been a member of MacNN (1998).

I like it, yet as Oisín feels, I sometimes feel like I missed out.

[Oisín]

I was about to add that normally, mods do add notices of the deletions, though.

And then I realised that this might not be true at all—after all, if deletions are sometimes/often done with no mod post about it, I’d probably never know it even happened, so obviously I’d think the only times it happened was when there was a mod post. Wee, parallel realities.

[Railroader]

WOW! After O'i's'i'n posted, that barrage of hilarious jokes and witty sarcastic barbs pointed at him must have been deleted.

I'm glad I caught it before it vanished forever.

[ghporter]

Depending on the content and the reason, we may edit particularly egregious verbiage out of a post or delete the post completely. And yes, a number of posts were deleted, all with the intent of keeping the thread from being derailed. Which seems to be happening anyway, so I'll (er HEM!) suggest that we get back onto the topic. Railroader was spot on (and pretty much on topic) in noting that we have been doing this for quite a while. Usually we get to a thread that's lost its way in a bad way in the midst of a 2-way nasty-fest and nobody really notices that anything's been deleted except the two (probably infractioned) nasty members, so these events go unnoticed.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

...that we have been doing this for quite a while.

I'm well aware of the fact that mods have always edited and deleted posts. But I noticed that lately it's happened a couple of times without any mod note. Actually in two cases the mods didn't even post to the thread at all. I was wondering if this was some kind of new moderation style, but it appears not.

[reader50]

It's considered good practice to post a note, but it doesn't always happen. Spam is usually removed without notice, and a thread that requires repeated attention - the accumulation of notes would itself become distracting.

Here is an extreme example, from the Photo Critique Thread. This is page 9 as moderators see it, after major cleanup. A pink bar is a (collapsed) deleted post, a pink block is a bunch of them.

Page 9 is one page today, but I count 81 offtopic/argument posts deleted, so it was originally 2.6 pages. If a note were posted after each post/group, there would be 17 of them.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by reader50 

It's considered good practice to post a note, but it doesn't always happen. Spam is usually removed without notice, and a thread that requires repeated attention - the accumulation of notes would itself become distracting.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Thanks for the explanation.

[Maflynn]

My only suggestion on mods removing content is to make every effort to post a note of what happened. Just as others have posted it makes them moderation more transparent

Just my $.02 which is what my 401k is worth now

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by reader50 

Here is an extreme example, from the Photo Critique Thread. This is page 9 as moderators see it, after major cleanup. A pink bar is a (collapsed) deleted post, a pink block is a bunch of them.

(img)

Your link isn’t working. I keep clicking the image to see the full size, and nothing happens.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Your link isn’t working. I keep clicking the image to see the full size, and nothing happens.

Maybe because there is no link?

[Oisín]

(That was sort of the joke, hence the stick smiley)