[Gametes]

So I would like to do a documentary of my next trip to South America. Buy a DV camera, a SuperDrive Mac...but here's my questions.

• [1]Can the camera record in low res mode? I don't need or want this "1GB = 5min" of film studio quality crap...the old 1960s era look is fine for me. I'd like to get about 5MB a minute, if that's possible. Does it look ok?
  [2]If I can get in this resolution, will iMovie/iDVD still be able to use it?
  [3]Will I be able to burn more than 90 minutes with iDVD if I use this resolution? As far as I'm concerned, 4.7GB@5MB/min = 15 hours/disc
  [4]Will a standard DVD player be able to read this? I mean, it is still mpeg, so it should work, right?

Thanks for your help. I don't want to carry around 100 pounds of DV drives for my camera...kinda defeats the purpose of advancement to digital, huh? I don't want to send 10 DVDs to all my friends/family, either...kinda defeats the purpose of DVD, huh?

[Ganesha]

iDVD burns DVDs in MPEG-2 format, it basically reencodes anything you feed it to MPEG-2. Because iDVD uses constant bit-rates, the bit rate of your source will not effect the bit rate of your DVD. You are pretty much locked into the 60/90 minute time limits.

If your willing to break DVD player compatibility (i.e. playback only on a computer), you can get MUCH longer play times, using more advanced compression codecs.

Can't you film everything onto DV-tape? The purpose of going digital is that you have lossless transfer of data between your systems.

[Hydra]

Originally posted by Gametes:
So I would like to do a documentary of my next trip to South America. Buy a DV camera, a SuperDrive Mac...but here's my questions.

• [1]Can the camera record in low res mode? I don't need or want this "1GB = 5min" of film studio quality crap...the old 1960s era look is fine for me. I'd like to get about 5MB a minute, if that's possible. Does it look ok?
  [2]If I can get in this resolution, will iMovie/iDVD still be able to use it?
  [3]Will I be able to burn more than 90 minutes with iDVD if I use this resolution? As far as I'm concerned, 4.7GB@5MB/min = 15 hours/disc
  [4]Will a standard DVD player be able to read this? I mean, it is still mpeg, so it should work, right?

Thanks for your help. I don't want to carry around 100 pounds of DV drives for my camera...kinda defeats the purpose of advancement to digital, huh? I don't want to send 10 DVDs to all my friends/family, either...kinda defeats the purpose of DVD, huh?

You have some correct info on DV and MPEG2 but you also have some that is wrong.

1) A Mini DV camcorder records around 13GB per hour to tape (one 60 min tape that equal 13GB). This is not a problem, you can fit almost TEN Mini DV tapes in the box a VHS tape comes in so in effect this gives you roughly 10x's the video physical storage space. Don't get worried about the size of this.

2)iMovie will only import in this DV format anyway so you need to use this format. The only problem this presents is that the DV capture files when importing from your camera will take that 13GB/hour on your harddrive (no one ever said Digital Video would take up small space)

3)Once the editing is complete in iMovie you THEN import the finished work into iDVD where it is compressed into MPEG2 (the DVD standard). You misunderstand the MPEG2 compression here though. A DVD-R holds around 4.7GB of data or video. Compression determins how much video you can squeeze on a disc. It does not matter how "big" the original DV files are, it is the length of the video that is important. That 1 hour of DV @13GB will be compressed to fit into the 4.7 GB (really 4.2 after formating). If you go with a 90 min iDVD project you will have close to 20GB of DV being compressed into yet again 4.7 GB. The compression increases and the quality goes down a bit(still very good however) to fit more length in the same space. iDVD 2.0 maxes at 90 min.

You theoretically could squeeze 5 hours or more into a 4.7 GB DVD-R (not with iDVD though) but in order to fit this the quality takes a hit.

4) The DVD-r's can play in most set-top boxes but not all. Generally most new players should be fine and some older ones may be flaky. Beware of "good deals" on DVD-r media as cheaper can often mean less compatible and worse quality. Apple's own DVD-r's are one of the best but not the cheapest.

I hope this helps and clears up a few questions you have. I took the time to make such a long post because I really think the industry (Apple included to a lesser extent) does a poor job of helping people to understand what's what with DV snd DVD when so much power is availible for such little cost compared to years past.

-Jerry C

[Gametes]

Originally posted by Hydra:


You have some correct info on DV and MPEG2 but you also have some that is wrong.

1) A Mini DV camcorder records around 13GB per hour to tape (one 60 min tape that equal 13GB). This is not a problem, you can fit almost TEN Mini DV tapes in the box a VHS tape comes in so in effect this gives you roughly 10x's the video physical storage space. Don't get worried about the size of this.

Is there any way I can double this? Record 120 minutes to a 60 minute tape? Sorry, I know it sounds dumb, but I'm gonna be gone a long time and want to take alot of film, without changing tapes much or carrying around crates of cartridges.

2)iMovie will only import in this DV format anyway so you need to use this format. The only problem this presents is that the DV capture files when importing from your camera will take that 13GB/hour on your harddrive (no one ever said Digital Video would take up small space)

Ya, and I hate this fact. After I do upload it, can I compress it, or lower the quality to, say, 1 or 2GB an hour? Surely this wouldn't look worse than a VHS?

3)Once the editing is complete in iMovie you THEN import the finished work into iDVD where it is compressed into MPEG2 (the DVD standard). You misunderstand the MPEG2 compression here though. A DVD-R holds around 4.7GB of data or video. Compression determins how much video you can squeeze on a disc. It does not matter how "big" the original DV files are, it is the length of the video that is important. That 1 hour of DV @13GB will be compressed to fit into the 4.7 GB (really 4.2 after formating). If you go with a 90 min iDVD project you will have close to 20GB of DV being compressed into yet again 4.7 GB. The compression increases and the quality goes down a bit(still very good however) to fit more length in the same space. iDVD 2.0 maxes at 90 min.

You theoretically could squeeze 5 hours or more into a 4.7 GB DVD-R (not with iDVD though) but in order to fit this the quality takes a hit.

Ok. So I could put 6 hours on a DVD, and this would play in a DVD player? I guess this is the most important point. Can iDVD be tricked into putting more than 90 minutes on a DVD? Multiple sessions or something? Otherwise, will FCP or DVDSP do the job? Man.

I really appreciate the length of your post, and the information you have shared thus far. Thank you.

[skalie]

Originally posted by Gametes:

Is there any way I can double this? Record 120 minutes to a 60 minute tape? Sorry, I know it sounds dumb, but I'm gonna be gone a long time and want to take alot of film, without changing tapes much or carrying around crates of cartridges.

60 minute miniDV tapes ( and miniDV cameras, well mine anyway) have a "Long Play" option which gives you 90 minutes of capture.

[Hydra]

Originally posted by Gametes:

Is there any way I can double this? Record 120 minutes to a 60 minute tape? Sorry, I know it sounds dumb, but I'm gonna be gone a long time and want to take alot of film, without changing tapes much or carrying around crates of cartridges.

Not a dumb question at all. Yes, most DV camcorders allow you to record in LP mode (much like a vcr does) that will let a 60min tape go 90min. Quality goes down bit but it will still be far better than VHS quality. There are tapes that come in 120 and 180min variety but they are ridiculouly expensive and I'm not really sure if they can go in any run of the mill consumer camcorder. I always use the 60 min because who knows when a tape will crap-out and I really wouldn't want to lose 180min potentially. Another reason is battery life. If you plan on doing that much video you had better bring a whole lotta extra battery power and I would recommend a very small camera to prevent fatigue and you're less likely to ruin footage by jiggling the shot with a tired arm. ( I drove NY to CA and back with my brother in my Boxster S and did over 20 hours of DV and my trusty little SONY PC-9 was a godsend for portability and lightness, esp. with a lack of storage space in a 2 seat roadster)

Ya, and I hate this fact. After I do upload it, can I compress it, or lower the quality to, say, 1 or 2GB an hour? Surely this wouldn't look worse than a VHS?

Yes, FCP 3.0 offers RT format which is a motion JPEG compression that allows you to do roughly 40min/GB compression while editing and then after all the editing is done you can magically reconnect the DV from the original tapes so in effect you can edit in low quality to save space and when done have the perfect DV quality - very impressive stuff and wonderful for Powerbook owners who like to edit on the fly. (I've never used it but I hear it works well)here is a link:
FCP RT format

Ok. So I could put 6 hours on a DVD, and this would play in a DVD player? I guess this is the most important point. Can iDVD be tricked into putting more than 90 minutes on a DVD? Multiple sessions or something? Otherwise, will FCP or DVDSP do the job? Man.

I really appreciate the length of your post, and the information you have shared thus far. Thank you.

iDVD can be tricked to record on DVD-RW's that can be erased and re-recorded but no you can't trick it to do more than 90 minutes as far as I know. DVDSP allows you to change the bitrate and at a bit rate of 1Mbps (the lowest it'll allow) it would yield around 550 min of video. I have never seen such a low bitrate and I believe it may becasue it must be pretty ugly to compress video that far but I feel you could squeeze as much as 200-240 min on a DVD with DVDSP and get decent results. I don't think a low bitrate should affect a player's compatibility but I know that high bitrates(over 9Mbps) can actually cause stuttering of the video.

So in summary: FCP RT format should help your space requirements and DVDSP should help your video length ones (be warned FCP is easy as NLE's go but DVDSP in not an easy thing to use - there will be a learning curve there). Now just go out and find $2000 for those two apps and you'll be ready to make a professional grade documentary

Also I have found that the boards over at 2-pop
are invaluable for all FCP,video and even DVD question. Sorry to drone on but it's late here and I fell asleep wacthing TV so I'm tired but can't sleep.

-Jerry C

[skalie]

If you are taking an iBook or Powerbook with you it is very easy edit out useless footage using iMovie and then export it back to tape, saving space.

(That does require having a camera with DV-in)

[KeyLimePi]

I'm curious. Why the interest in getting 6 hrs. or more onto one DVD? Are you planning on using these DVDs for archiving your raw footage or for displaying your final program?

If you are using them for archiving remember that the DVD format is compressed (MPEG), so retreiving this footage from the disks for editing won't be as simple as pulling off raw DV from a tape.

If you are using it for your final program, why would you need six (or more?) continuous hours? I agree 90 minutes is a little limiting but few people (even family) will sit through a video that is more than two hours without a break. Can't your final program be split up across three DVDs? DVDs are comparatively cheap and I can't see going to all the trouble -- let alone sacrificing the image quality of what sounds like some great footage -- to keep the whole show on one DVD.

Again, I'm not really sure what your plans are, but I think that mini-DV is a very cheap a reliable medium. Take as many tapes as possible and shoot everything you can. Worry about editing and DVD burning later. You can leave your video on those tapes for a long time without losing anything (or at least until those 120GB florescent ink disks make it to the market!)

[Gametes]

Wow; thanks for the help everybody.

My plans were to make 2 different DVD sets. One would be for family and friends, and would include coverage of everybody who went on the field program with me. So 3 months and 12 people, recorded as a social film.
The other would be not a professional documentary, of course, but an educational film for use in my classes. Still 3 months, but with a focus on our surroundings (ecosystems and cultures) instead of us.

Having thought about it, no, there is no need to put it all on one DVD. 3 would be fine, but 90 minutes is too short per. I'd like to end up with about the equivalent of a tv episode a week (for each project), as they do with real world and survivor. So, 12 weeks = 12 hours = 4 DVDs@3hours/DVD.

The thing is, it seems to my imagination that I could shoot easily an hour a day of film. So I need 100 hours of tape, which I must then edit into 24 hours over two projects, for inclusion on 8 DVDs.
sigh.
I'd just rather not have to carry at least 50 DV tapes and then have to buy FCP.

Ah, and about battery life, I was planning on getting a solar recharger, instead of carrying around 50 pounds of batteries.

[nitram_at_work]

Making that much interesting footage is a tall order. It's difficult enough to make something 15 minutes long seem interesting. (This is why ads are a godsend, really). Shoot some movies and try it.

Try to have a series of "themes", centered around geography, or a particular activity, or a type of animal, that sort of thing. Use stills with a descriptive voiceover to add effect (pad things out)

I'd strongly recommend a practice run, from filming to editing to DVD production to screening. Shooting the video is just the beginning. Editing is your next chore. Grab a couple of 120 GB drives (unless the new Macs can handle the really big ones, 320 GB has been announced I think). Edit to the storyline you made *before* you left...

We're all Spielbergs, Camerons, Scotts or Attenboroughs until we start shooting.

Home-made DVDs ... slide show nights of the new millennium?

[Gametes]

Hehe...I guess I can see it that way.

On the other hand, slideshow night was a way to annoy guests. Loved ones are always curious to see what their children and siblings have been up to; the first movie is for them. I mean, no way can 3 months be a 1 hour video.

As for the second..I get a captive audience of students...mwuhahahaha!
They need to learn something anyway.