[topherko]

I am interested in purchasing a DV camcorder to record footage that will eventually find its way (hopefully) on to a DVD for my band. I will be recording lots of "behind the scenes" stuff, live performances, and the process of recording our music.
What I am curious about is suggestions on different features in different camcorders that may be of importnace in this process. I will not need to purchase something to provide professional quality, because I don't have the professional knowledge, but I would like to have the ability to grow in quality as my knowledge-base grows.
I will have about $500 to spend.
I also wonder about what is most important, the camera or the editing software? It seems that many people place much more importnace on the ability to edit what has been filmed than the ability to actually capture somthing.
I am interested in hearing all thoughts about how to go about working on, and completing my project. Thanks in advance for the help.

[k_munic]

with no technique you can increase the quality of a bad recording - so, your camera shouldn't be cheap...

i do recommend sony, european types as tvr14 and better; the lenses are from zeiss (best quality you can get); it has this sony "stamina" battery system, which means you don't have to connect to a wallplug for hours (but buy 1 or 2 extra batteries!); it has a very good pic AND sound quality; and it is apple compatible.
my trv14 has NO dv-in, 'cause as you, i burn my final projects on dvd (and make vhs copies from there), so for me, there is no need to "back up" the final projects on tape..-
i don't like all these "effects" (strobe, sepia etc) IN the cameras, i prefer to add effects later in post-production - ALL camera effects can be done with editing-prgs (and better - if you don't like the effect, it is just apple-z; if you record with effect, there is no way back...)
so, picture and sound quality, plus good batteries and good handling (e.g. small camcorders and big-men hands...); for a beginner, i don't see the need of 3-chip etc.pp. AND: there is NO need of using a camcorder as a digiPhoto! don't let you impress of "3 megapixel ccd" etc! a video pic has technical less then 300k of pixel!

editing:
"...because I don't have the professional knowledge..."- especially when the recordings are done by an amateur, editing is of paramount importance! and - oh, oh - it is an art form.

for a beginner the included iMovie is VERY good - easy to use, the GUI is logic and consistance. neg: very cheap sound possiblities! - for your project: with iMovie it is NOT easy to do "audio splits": some editied documentary sounds + a voice over + some music etc... iMovie just offers 2 audio tracks...-

using a consumer mini-DV cam, best prg money can buy is Final Cut Express - be warned! this is a pro tool! but wonderful in its possibilities; you can do montages, multipictures, pics-in-pics, you can mix up to 99 audio tracks.... btw: you have a fast mac? and a BIG hd? video needs LOTS of storage space...

summary:
buy a good camcorder with no extras (sony, canon); start with a small project (final length: 5min) using iMovie; buy books about FCE...-

[zigzag]

You can now buy a DV camcorder for less than $500. At that price level, they'll probably perform about the same, but do a search for reviews. I'd go to the stores and get a feel for which ones you like to handle. Consider looking for discontinued models - the newer ones tend to focus more on still photo capabilities, which I consider a waste of money. Just make sure it's Mac-compatible.

Don't forget to budget for tapes, which you'll need a lot of (buy online or at Costco for $3 each). And you'll probably want a tripod ($25-100).

Sooner or later - probably sooner - you'll also want an extra high-capacity battery ($50-100). One key thing is how the camcorder handles recharging. Some camcorders (Sony) recharge on the camera, which means you can't videotape and recharge an extra battery at the same time (unless you buy an outboard recharger for $50-100). Canons come with an outboard recharger.

Be aware that although some inexpensive cameras perform marginally better in low light than others, none of them perform well. Get used to it or make sure you have adequate lighting.

Believe it or not, although it's nice to have good video, sound quality is more important than video quality. You can make do with the camera's built-in mike, but eventually you'll want to spend $100 for a basic shotgun mike like the AT ATR55. Wireless is even better. You can also try to record from the PA or mixer.

But don't let any of this discourage you. I've made some swell videos with nothing more than a handheld miniDV camcorder.

[topherko]

All of that information is very helpful to me. Thank you very much.

This gives me some more direction in determining what to buy.
I just did some more research on the capabilities of Final Cut Express and I think I am going to attempt to do my editing work with that program - although it will take some learning, I think the extra work will make the final project worthwhile, especially regarding sound.

I had a feeling that some of the lower level DV camcorders might have difficulty recording in low-light situations, but I may have to live with it until my budget permits me to do otherwise.

Thanks again for the help. As I do more research I may come back with some more "specific" questions as they come up.

Regards,
Chris

[stevesnj]

I get great advice from here http://www.dv.com/ I'm sure they can help you out. You need to register buts its free.

[scottiB]

Four years ago, I bought a Canon ZR-10 (for $890!--sheesh) and began taping 98% of my band's gigs--not so much for behind the scenes footage as capturing performances for posterity in my old age. While I won't direct you to a specific camera (though a refurbed Canon ZR-65 can be found for $269 that has better specs than my camera), I can provide a little experience of what to expect when shooting live gigs.

• Light: Any camera in this price range will suck in low light. Unless the bar as decent stage lights (and if they do, you play in nicer places than I), the video will be grainy. It's a sacrifice that you'll have to stomach. While this isn't that much of a problem for a DVD (where a TV can be adjusted somewhat), it can be problematic if you post on the web (where the image is smaller and detail can be lost). Unless you want to purchase and cart around video lights (which are expensive, can ruin the mood, and you need to fight other band members for power outlets), the video won't look broadcast quality--but it will be passable.
  
• Camera position and Sound: I pair these because it's a logistical problem that can be a nightmare in a bar/club. With one camera, my goal is to essentially capture the stage for the entire performance with a static camera. Period. Since you don't have multiple cameras for different angles, be content with catching the band like anyone in the audience watching the show. Resist offers from friends/fans to say they'll tape the show for you. Odds are that they'll jiggle the camera, focus tightly on the singer too much, miss a guitar solo, or just end up getting drunk and setting down the camera.
  
  Buy a tripod. It need not be expensive, and it need not be huge with wide feet spread. I say this because in a crowded bar, it's tough to find an optimal place for it. People can bump it, walk in front of it (a given), or it can block people's view. What I've tried to do is either stakeout a front table near the stage-center and duct tape the unexpanded tripod to its top (or use a small, table top tripod) or position it in front of the sound board if it gives a good shot. People usually give the sound guy/board a wide berth and rarely stand near it....

It's late here, so I'll post more about sound, mics, and accessories over the weekend.

[k_munic]

talking about low level light - a once had the chance to work with a sony vx 1000. which is a 3ccd camcorder WOWY! you can almost work in dark night! so, if this is important for you...

forget these zero light features: it means, the camera is able to film with infrared, some cams have tiny little infrared leds... ok, you can buy infrared lamps ...- but the picture quality is below zero either

and as mentioned above. a tripod! after the second day of editing, you can't stand any more these shaky handfilmed scenes...

[scottiB]

(continued)

• Sound: Getting a good sound representation can be difficult. Like dealing with low light, you won't get a great "studio" sound (like live TV performances), unless you do what they do: bring multiple mics, stands, and an external mixing board to output to the camera. That said, you can get a good representation if you place a mic towards the rear of the club/bar towards the center--that's where sound usually converges.
  
  Look for a stereo mic. I use a cheap ($30)AudioTechnica ATR25. This is very much a consumer mic, and its quality is about the same as the camera's built-in. Why I use it is that I can keep the camera close to the stage and have the mic in the back (running an extension cable between the two--and duct taping it to the floor). You may need some ingenuity for the mic placement (I've placed the stand on cigarette machines, taped the mic to a wall, etc.), but if it's placed too close to the stage (ahead of the PA speakers), you'll miss the vocals.
  
  While running a line from the sound board may seem a good idea, it usually isn't. Unless everything has a microphone or a line to the board (all the drums, cymbals, etc.--not just the kick), you won't get a good representation from feed, and unless there are a few mics placed for atmosphere, you won't get any crowd noise--except muted through the vocal mic. You'll get better results with your own mic in the back of the room.
  
• Software: If you're using one camera at a time per shot (like my set-up), iMovie is fine. You don't need FCE. If you want to EQ, compress, flatten, add effects to the audio, you can extract it as an AIFF, run it through Felt Tip's Sound Studio ($49) and reimport it to iMovie. IMO, the only, ONLY reason to use FCE is if you have multiple cameras shooting simultaneously, and you would cross cut shots across one bed of audio (which I'll touch on later).

[scottiB]

(continued, continued)

• Accessories: In addition to the mic and stands, you'll need at least one extra battery (preferably one with high capacity). Most batteries included with cameras last an hour or so without using the LCD as a viewfinder; having a double or triple capacity one is really preferable.
  
  In my bag I usually care a roll of duct (or gaffer's tape), extra AA batteries, a small flashlight, and a Leatherman tool or a pocket knife.
  
• How I would spend your $500:

$385: Canon ZR-70 camera (last year's model, but perfectly good).
$26: AudioTechnica ATR25 Mic (comes with a camera/shoe adapter, too).
$45: Compact video tripod
$30: Mic boom stand (tripod, so it's lighter)
$50: Extra camera battery (double capacity)
$50: Felt Tip Sound Studio
$14 for audio extension cables

$600 total--you'd be under $500 if you purchased the refurb I noted above.

[James L]

Hey,

I do quite a bit with my Canon ZR80 and Final Cut Express. I am a semi pro musician who gigs about 45 times per year. Here are my thoughts:

1) The Canon ZR is a nice entry level DV Camera, but has 2 limitations. First is the low light thing, but that is a fault of ALL low budget cameras. Second is that it has no external audio in jack. This is limiting, so I would go with one that has this ability like most Sony's tend too.

2) Get a tripod for sure.

3) The learning curve on FCE is a bit high, but it absolutely rocks. There are 7 quicktime tutorials on Apples site, and I am working my way through an awesome, Apple certified, training book right now on it.

4) Get LOTS of disc space. 5 minutes of DV footage takes up about 1 GIG of disc space.

I hope that helps.

Cheers!

[scottiB]

Originally posted by James L:
1) The Canon ZR is a nice entry level DV Camera, but has 2 limitations. First is the low light thing, but that is a fault of ALL low budget cameras. Second is that it has no external audio in jack. This is limiting, so I would go with one that has this ability like most Sony's tend too.

My God, you're right about the audio-in jack being removed from the ZR-80/85/90 series. What a ridiculous removal! All previous ZRs have an audio-in jack--I used a ZR70 with an external mic last year.

Nitpick about ZRs--tape loading is done from the camera bottom, so you must remove it from the tripod to change tapes.

Also, always record in 16-bit (not 12-bit mode).

[topherko]

These responses are confirming alot of my initial thoughts on things and I am very glad to hear that similar recordings have been done.

I am definitely looking forward to putting all of that advice to good use.

It looks like I probably will go with the ZR70 but I will let you guys know when i finally do make a decision.

Thanks again.

[Talk2Angus]

great advice from here http://www.dv.com/