[DeeKat]

I havee begun to edit a short film in DV 24p. I'm almost finish digitizing all the 10 hrs off rushes and I just read that the NTSC 24p is in fact 23,98 fps (like 30 fps is in fact 29.97 in normal NTSC video). Is that mean that I have to re-digitilize EVERYTHING!

I have edited my stuff before but it's the first time in 24p, or should I say 23.98. I guest that's why I normaly hire an PROFESSIONAL EDITOR to edit my project. Is a way a could batch re-format my rushes in 23.98 throught Cinema Tools or Cleaner so I dont have to go throught the whole process again?

Thank

Deekat

[sonicularulus]

there is no problem there...that is normal, as in that is what i get and i have no problem. I am assuming you used the canon xl2 or the dvx100.

For some future tips, shoot with a 2:3:3:2 advanced pull down removal setting turned on.
Then in final cut, use the 2:3:3:2 advanced pull-down removal setting as you capture. THat is the method i use. If i am wrong, or somebody else has other methods, please correct me and share the correct way of doing so.

24p is like working in a whole new format as there are new factors to consider.

[DeeKat]

yes I used the Panasonic DVX100 but I'm not I understand you. Are you saying you digitalized in 24p or in 23.98p?

[sonicularulus]

basically, what i am saying is that it should be normal at 23.98
sorry i got all complicated on you, but that whole thing i explanied above was just "the proper" method i read from a magazine. i also got lost while reading it, but with the aid of pcitures, i got it down.

try doing some research on working with 24p video on final cut pro as it would help. it would also help to try to understand ho 24p works and is created.

[DeeKat]

I talk to a few person in the business and they told me that actually the DVX100( the earlier models) doesn't do REAL 24p but a fake one that is recorded on the tape as 29.97!!! A fellow director, friend of mine, confirm that saying that he digitalized in 29.97 with no problems and thats what should be done with this camera. If I had done real 24p (generally those camera are HD, but the NEW Panasonic does it to, apparently), then I would have to digitalized in 23.98 because it's NTSC.

so far it seems that i'll have to recapture everything. I'm kind of fed up with this format hell I just want to edit my film The irony of it is that I did all that to LEARN more about editing!!! A guest I got what I wanted...

[loki74]

As I understand it, the 24p is acutally "real" 24p, but it has to be made to fit into 29.97. The 2:3:3:2 pulldown is designed such that you can easily convert the resulting 29.97 into true 24p. If you used the other pulldown method (2:3 I believe it is) then I'm not sure what you'll do. Unlike 2:3:3:2, 2:3 (or whatever it is) is designed to look smoother, but it will not be ideal for converting into actual 24p.

My understanding is that one would film in 24p, pulled down with 2:3:3:2, edit in 24p by means of reverse telecine, and then pull the final product down with 2:3 (or whatever it is) for video/DVD release, but keep it in its 24p format for release to film.

I could be way off on all of this; if I am someone please let me know!

[sonicularulus]

Well, here is the problem with 24p. For it to work, you need to understand, as for a video camera to do true 24p, it would have to slow down the gears within the actual tape deck to run at 24 frams per second, but since tape is designed at 30 frames for second (29.97 actually), it just wont work out properly.

In digital, there is no "real" film-like 24 frames per second...just something really really close to it...
to do this, the camera records at progressive, at 24p (thus the name 24p), but creates an interlaced frame every 5th frame taken so everything would work out correctly. In the software, it is then captured and the "flagged" interlaced frames are re-constructed so that you get the film look.

As for the pull-down issue, i do not quite get it, but as far as i know, there are two types when working with 24p footage. One is the simple 2:3:2:3 pull down....something that isnt too great.
instead, you want to set up your camera at 2:3:3:2 advanced pull down. Refer to your users manual (you should have one unless the cam is stolen..hehe).
In final cut, just set your capture preset to 2:3:3:2 Advanced Pull Down Removal and you should work out fine.

Just like i posted earlier, working with 24p is like working with a whole new format as there are new curves and different technical issues you have to understand to make working with such footage easier...

Best of luck. I hope i didnt get too confusing.

[DeeKat]

I have to add that there is 2 kind of 24p, actually 3. first there is 35mm film, where there is literally and simply 24 frames per seconds. When film gets tranfered on digital Beta there is a 3:2 pull down because obviouly NTSC video runs at 29.97 fps, like Soni said there is a "new" frame that is inserted every 5 "real" negative frame. If you edit a TV commercial that will only go on TV you basically stay in video for the final product. If you edit a film you used KeyCodes (instead Timecode) to match the negative's oroginal frames, cut the negative and get a film print. So far I'm OK as a TV commercial dirdector I'm very familiar with this process.

Then there is the video equivalent of film (because originally they invented 24p to emulate 35mm film look). The problem I got is that there is a "fake" 24p and a "real"' one. A bit like you sais Soni the "fake" one is recorded on the tape in 29.97. Most 24p DV cams are in this category. In this case there isn't any pull down as the material is native 29.97.

The other case is the one from the "real" 24p from HD cams. Those HD cams HD decks runs slower. Those are doing real 24p, but since it's NTSC, in the same way you dont't get 30fps but 29.97, your material is recorded in 23.98 on the tape. And since most networks dont'n broadcast all their shows in HD you will have sooner or later to trasfer it to regular NTSC video at 29.97. Depending on you workflow you can shoot in HD 24p, edit in HD 24p and get a master tape in HD24p but at some point you will have to trasfer it to 29.98 and that where you'll have a pull down. Unless the network is broadcasting in HD in which case there wouldn't be any pull down and you'll have a perfect HD 24p workflow

In any casse that's my understanding of it all. Maybe I'm wrong in some specifics and please feel free to correct me.

[edit] So finally my problem was that very naively I digitalized in 24p! (make me laugh now) and it's basically impossible in NTSC, it's either 23.98 or 29.97.

Cheers
DeeKat

[sonicularulus]

One more note:
Not all high definition camcorders do 24p. As far as i know, only Panasonic's HVX-200 and JVC's hd100u.
Canon's XL H1 doesnt do true 24p as their images remain interlaced. Sony's HD cams do not do 24p, but emluate it in what they calle CineFrame.
JVC does 24p at a 1280x720 resolution, not the full 1080. I am not sure what format Panasonic can do 24p in, but im assuming it can do it at 720 and also 1080, however, the use of its high def features require the use of their expensive P2 cards.

Also, JVC has 2 new hd camcorders in the market. I am sure they also do High def, i just do not know what setting of 24p.