[willed]

The question's in the title - why has Apple based QT6 around this technology? Is it revolutionary or what??

[mitchell_pgh]

I don't understand how people aren't getting excited about this, but if you aren't, you should be. Perhaps it's because I have so many PC friends that use DivX on a regular basis. Anyway:

1) Mac users will have a codec that they can copy movies to

2) Streaming video (like what we all watch MacWorld keynotes on) will transition from a blurry pixilated mess to that of a quasi sharp TV image overnight.

3) Sending iMovies to friends becomes very easy

4) 50Mb web movies you never thought you could download become
5Mb web files.

5) Burning 80 hours of VHS quality video to one DVD!

6) Video conferencing becomes a potential reality.

7) All applications will take full advantage of it out of the box (iMovie, Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premier, etc. etc. etc.

8) MPEG1 and MPEG2 use fixed bandwidths where as MPEG4 has a veritable bandwidth. So I can use MPEG4 to make VERY low bandwidth files (that look better then MPEG1) or very high bandwidth files (quality better then MPEG2/DVD)

9) Windows, Unix, Linux, BSD, and Mac people will have an open standard to work from. QuickTime 5 makes Unix/Linux people freak because they don't have players!

10) More interesting content. When you get a CD with your magazine, who knows how much footage is on there (remember, a feature length movie has an MPEG4 file size of around 650MB...

11) With quicktime, you can get more dynamic programs because they can put parts of films into a Flash document etc, etc...

12) MPEG4 is ideal for PDAs and Phones as well.

13) MPEG4 is an open standard. It's not all the way open, but it's out there...

And this is just the start.

[starman]

MPEG-4 is nothing special. The only reason why people are so excited about it is because now they can watch all the pirated videos on the net. It's still garbage quality.

Mike

[NeoMac]

At the very least, MPEG4 will allow you to watch a bigger, better, less bandwidth intensive versions of the movie trailers Apple hosts on it's web site.

At best, it will change the way we experience the internet.

At worst, it means banner ads in web pages will be replaced with even more excrutiatingly annoying video commercials.

[mitchell_pgh]

starman obviously you have never seen MPEG4 quality or have no clue about the codec! MPEG4 is a scaleable codec! Basically the quality can go from very low bandwidth (lower quality, but viewable via stream by dial up) to VERY high bandwidth (higher quality then DVD with better sound then Dolbe 5.1)

No, it's not native DV, but that's not what it's intended to be!

[SirCastor]

Mitchell, your points are great!

One thing though. Yes you can burn 80 hours of video to a DVD with MPEG4, but is it going to do you any good? You wouldn't be able to create that DVD to be viewable in a set top player. The technology is too advanced, so to speak.
The best you'd have was a way to store 80 hours, you couldn't view them except on the computer..

[mitchell_pgh]

VERY true SirCastor but I guess there may be a few MPEG4 set top boxes sold (but who is going to buy one?) Yah, you will only be able to play the 80 hour DVD MPEG4 footage on your computer, but remember, more and more people are connecting their computers to their TV sets. It isn't that hard, and you can do it wireless for under $100. If you get a wireless keyboard and mouse, things get even more interesting. I think we are going to start seeing set top boxes disapear over the next few years (to think that my 2 year old DVD player is already very outdated technology-wise mekes me feel bad). Yes, we will always have a few set top boxes, but I bet it's less and less. That's why the MPEGLA is making such a big stink about this. They don't want to miss out on major amounts of potential money.

[ratlater]

Originally posted by starman:
<STRONG>MPEG-4 is nothing special. The only reason why people are so excited about it is because now they can watch all the pirated videos on the net. It's still garbage quality.

Mike</STRONG>

First of all, MPEG-4 and DivX are not the same thing. DivX is the result of Microsoft hacking around with the MPEG-4 codec, and currently exists in a number of incompatible formats such as Open Divx and 3ivx. Mpeg-4 is not the format of all of the pirated movies on the web!

Secondly, if you think MPEG-4 is garbage quality, then what is good quality? Does good quality video exist in this world?...or just in your imagination? If you think MPEG-4 is poor quality, then I'd really like to see your high quality video.

-matt

[starman]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
<STRONG>starman obviously you have never seen MPEG4 quality or have no clue about the codec! MPEG4 is a scaleable codec! Basically the quality can go from very low bandwidth (lower quality, but viewable via stream by dial up) to VERY high bandwidth (higher quality then DVD with better sound then Dolbe 5.1)

No, it's not native DV, but that's not what it's intended to be!</STRONG>

Wrong. I've seen and used MPEG-4. It's shit, plain and simple.

Higher quality than DVD with better sound than Dolby Digital 5.1? Now I KNOW you're talking out of your ass.

Mike

[ckohler]

Originally posted by starman:
<STRONG>Wrong. I've seen and used MPEG-4. It's @#$#, plain and simple.</STRONG>

Starman, when you find a way to stream live or on-demand video using MPEG2 over a dialup or cable modem connection let me know. Until then (which will be never) MPEG4 is good news. As Frank Casanova said during the keynote, "MPEG2 is ten year old math." Give it huge bandwidth and sure it'll look good (like on a DVD). It doesn't scale though.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by ratlater:
<STRONG>

First of all, MPEG-4 and DivX are not the same thing. DivX is the result of Microsoft hacking around with the MPEG-4 codec, and currently exists in a number of incompatible formats such as Open Divx and 3ivx. Mpeg-4 is not the format of all of the pirated movies on the web!</STRONG>

Wrong.

DivX 3.11 was, as you say, a hack of Microsoft's not-quite-MPEG-4 codec.

DivX 4.0 is completely now, and is true MPEG-4 video (even if they blindly insisted on the crap AVI container format).

OpenDivX was a kind of testbed for DivX 4.0. 3ivX is completely unrealted to these, but is a true MPEG-4 format (right down to using the superior .mov container format).

But here's the kicker: except for DivX 3.11, these are all compatible. At least, to a limited degree. But the way the MPEG-4 standard is made, any MPEG-4 compliant file can play in any MPEG-4 compliant player. A 3ivX-encoded video should play back in a DivX player (assuming it can parse the .mov file format; note that WiMP and Real can both do this already). The only difference is in how they're encoded; they all decode the same way.

[starman]

I think what might hurt MPEG-4 the most is the association with the "DiVX" name. I can't believe that some ******** decided to name his MPEG-4 bastardization monstrosity "Divx" (with or without the stupid ASCII smiley). On top of associating it with the CC format, you have an open format that everyone can change on a whim, and in the early days, nobody even knew what the hell it was. On top of that, we have all these flavors which, in reality, don't play well with each other. I had to download THREE DivX codecs for WMP for Windows because none of them were compatable with each other. One was a DiVX formatted video of the Star Wars Epsiode I DVD trailer. The DiVX codec I downloaded a week ago for an MTV video didn't like the SW trailer codec. It's frustrating, and until the name "DIVX" goes away, it's going to be a bumpy road for MPEG-4.

Mike

[lucylawless]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>(assuming it can parse the .mov file format; note that WiMP and Real can both do this already)</STRONG>

please explain this. You're saying if I install the divx 4 codec on win98, I can play 3ivx quicktime movies in WiMP?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by lucylawless:
<STRONG>

please explain this. You're saying if I install the divx 4 codec on win98, I can play 3ivx quicktime movies in WiMP?</STRONG>

Theoretically, yes. In practice it's not quite that simple, unfortunately.

The video streams are compatible; although they are encoded differently, they decode the same way. This way is specified in the MPEG-4 standard; they deliberately don't define an encoding standard. Encoders just have to all be compatible with this decoding algorithm.

The file format is also standardized. WiMP and Real can both parse this format.

The thing that makes it a little strange is the format of the video stream. There are certain codes in the header of the video stream that are meant to identify the encoding software used. Some video players will only decode stuff that they encoded; they see the code for another encoder, and the player thinks the file format's invalid and trips up. But in reality, there is no real reason for the incompatibility.

For proof of this concept, look no farther than the older DivOSX codec at http://divx.jamby.net . It played, and still plays, the old DivX, DivX 4.0, OpenDivX, and 3ivX (though it can't encode any of these). But there are only two sets of code: one for the MS-MPEG4 in old DivX, and one for the true-MPEG4 formats (DivX4, OpenDivX, and 3ivX).

[Elvin]

So if MPEG4 is that good, then won't this hurt Apple's .mov format, or does Apple really care?

[Zoro]

Originally posted by Elvin:
<STRONG>So if MPEG4 is that good, then won't this hurt Apple's .mov format, or does Apple really care?</STRONG>

IIRC, you cannot embed a flash track in a .mp4 file, but you can in a .mov.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Elvin:
<STRONG>So if MPEG4 is that good, then won't this hurt Apple's .mov format, or does Apple really care?</STRONG>

Not at all; remember that the .mov format is the official standard for MPEG-4 video. Every .MP4 file you'll see out there is in the .mov format. Only the codec has changed, but that's not something Apple much cares about, because the MPEG-4 codecs are by definition interoperable.

By the way, I think it's actually possible to embed Flash in a .MP4 file, just as with any other kind of media. Of course, the player has to be able to support Flash, or that track won't work, but the rest still should.

[lucylawless]

is the file extension for MPEG4 really .MP4?

[orizahd]

Originally posted by lucylawless:
<STRONG>is the file extension for MPEG4 really .MP4?</STRONG>

There seems to be no official extension. It can be the extension of the container (.avi, .mov) or anything else you choose (.divx).

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by starman:
<STRONG>

Wrong. I've seen and used MPEG-4. It's shit, plain and simple.

Higher quality than DVD with better sound than Dolby Digital 5.1? Now I KNOW you're talking out of your ass.

Mike</STRONG>

Starman you are a fool!

1) MPEG4 video quality can be MUCH higher then MPEG2/DVD (MPEG2 is fixed at around 6 Mbps - MPEG4 can go well above 6 Mbps, and encodes much higher)

2) A DVD can have Dolby 5.1, MPEG4 using AAC can have digital sound with 16 channels or more.

There seems to be a huge level of misunderstanding on this thread. Almost nobody had anything 100% correct.

MPEG-2 and MPEG-1 do NOT have set bandwidths. They can be modified as can MPEG-4. However, the VCD standards requires an MPEG-1 bandwidth of 1152 kbps for the video and 224 kbps for the audio and has other restrictions, such as an image frame size of 352x240 for NTSC and 352x288 for PAL. MPEG-2 can be encoded to any bitrate you want for DVD or SVCD. However, a bitrate of 5000 to 8000 kbps is often used to maintain a good quality. The standard DVD and SVCD image sizes are 720x480 for NTSC (29.97 fps) and 720x576 for PAL (24.975 fps).

You can encode MPEG-1 to 5000 kbps as well, and it will look almost exactly like MPEG-2 encoded to 5000 kbps. Most people can't tell the difference in quality. The encoding algorithm between MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 video is not all that different.

MPEG-4, on the other hand, delivers the same quality as MPEG-1/MPEG-2 at roughly a quarter of the bitrate. So what required 8000 kbps for MPEG-2 now requires 2000 kbps MPEG-4, and the quality is essentially identical in both cases. Going even lower to the 700 kbps range for video still produces rather good results with MPEG-4, it's no longer DVD quality, but still better than VHS at such low bitrates.

Divx 3.11 was a hack of Microsoft's implementation of the early MPEG-4 specifications (version 1). Divx 4.0 was derived from the open source MPEG-4 v2 implementation known as OpenDivx. I think 3ivx is based on the MPEG-4 v3 specifications. The Divx 4.0 codec has been modified quite considerably over time to offer better quality and speed, etc. It is not 100% ISO MPEG-4 compliant.

Content encoded with divx 3.11, divx 4, 3ivx cannot be decoded with the Apple ISO MPEG-4 decoder. That means that Quicktime6 will not be able to play the pirated divx3/4 movies on the net today unless the macintosh divx codec from www.divx.com is also installed. The divx4 or 3ivx decoder will likewise not decode content encoded with the official ISO MPEG-4 encoder. In short, only the Apple codec is based on any real MPEG-4 standard, and the rest are not.

The official wrapper file format for the MPEG-4 codec is MP4. It is basically the Apple MOV format, but is somewhat modified and enhanced to allow for better streaming support than MOV. It is not exactly Apple's MOV format in other words, and programs that handle MOV do not automatically handle the MP4 format unless that capability is added to them.

That's all I can think of right now. If I see any other bits of misinformation/misunderstanding, I'll throw in my 2 cents again.

[Elvin]

Thanks for the clarification about .mov files. I think it all makes sense and really is a good move by Apple. We'll see, when it comes time to watch the next keynote being streamed by Quicktime 6

[mitchell_pgh]

Bobbinson I stand corrected.

Elvin I can't wait for MW via. QT 6

[Millennium]

Originally posted by &lt;Bobbinson&gt;:
<STRONG>There seems to be a huge level of misunderstanding on this thread. Almost nobody had anything 100% correct.

MPEG-2 and MPEG-1 do NOT have set bandwidths. They can be modified as can MPEG-4. However, the VCD standards requires an MPEG-1 bandwidth of 1152 kbps for the video and 224 kbps for the audio and has other restrictions, such as an image frame size of 352x240 for NTSC and 352x288 for PAL. MPEG-2 can be encoded to any bitrate you want for DVD or SVCD. However, a bitrate of 5000 to 8000 kbps is often used to maintain a good quality. The standard DVD and SVCD image sizes are 720x480 for NTSC (29.97 fps) and 720x576 for PAL (24.975 fps).</STRONG>

Up to this point, you're correct.

You can encode MPEG-1 to 5000 kbps as well, and it will look almost exactly like MPEG-2 encoded to 5000 kbps.

Actually, this is only sort of correct on this one. MPEG-1 at this high of a bitrate is out of spec. The highest you're supposed to encode MPEG-1 at is 1536. Players don't necessarily support streams higher than that, and many do not.

Divx 3.11 was a hack of Microsoft's implementation of the early MPEG-4 specifications (version 1).

The "versions" of MPEG-4 are not drafts. They are actually three separate (though similar) specs. v1 is the least processor-intensive of the three, but it is also the lowest quality. v3 is the reverse: they pulled out the stops when it came to video quality, but as a result the playback requirements are significantly higher. v2 is an attempt to balance these. The three specs are similar, and have almost identical formats; the difference comes in the specific tricks used in decoding the video (none of the three specs specifies an encoding format, interestingly enough; all you have to do to make a conforming encoder is ensure that it can be decoded by the standard decoding algorithms).

Why did they do this? The idea was to give a choice of how to compress the video, so that it could be better-tailored to the situation. Obviously, you wouldn't really want to use v3 for streaming, because the networking code itself will be taking away resources which you might need; v1 is the way to go for that. But for a downloadable movie, it's OK to go with V3, since you don't have to worry about very much else running, and so you can get better quality that way.

Divx 4.0 was derived from the open source MPEG-4 v2 implementation known as OpenDivx.

DivX claims otherwise. While they do admit that OpenDivX and DivX4 are related, they also say that they came from completely different codebases. They view OpenDivX as having been a testbed for their ideas, however DivX4 was all new code.

I think 3ivx is based on the MPEG-4 v3 specifications.

Here, you're correct.

The Divx 4.0 codec has been modified quite considerably over time to offer better quality and speed, etc. It is not 100% ISO MPEG-4 compliant.

I don't remember DivX ever saying anything one way or the other about being compliant. Where'd you find this one? I'd love to find out for sure.

Content encoded with divx 3.11, divx 4, 3ivx cannot be decoded with the Apple ISO MPEG-4 decoder.

Are you certain of this?

That means that Quicktime6 will not be able to play the pirated divx3/4 movies on the net today unless the macintosh divx codec from www.divx.com is also installed. The divx4 or 3ivx decoder will likewise not decode content encoded with the official ISO MPEG-4 encoder. In short, only the Apple codec is based on any real MPEG-4 standard, and the rest are not.

Are you certain of this? I know 3ivX claims standards-compliance. DivX3 wouldn't play, of course; it's most definitely not true MPEG-4. But I thought DivX4 claimed standards-compliance.

The official wrapper file format for the MPEG-4 codec is MP4. It is basically the Apple MOV format, but is somewhat modified and enhanced to allow for better streaming support than MOV. It is not exactly Apple's MOV format in other words, and programs that handle MOV do not automatically handle the MP4 format unless that capability is added to them.

As I understand it, one of these can be played by something that works with the other. I don't remember which way this goes, though.

[Synotic]

G33KS! I apologize.. but I had to say it

Anyways, MPEG 4 seems cool.. is it the next version of MP3? Was there an MP2? MP1? Is MP4 a better quality of MP3 that allows streaming/movies? What is the advanced audio coding thing? Sorry for all the questions

Originally posted by Synotic:
<STRONG>G33KS! I apologize.. but I had to say it

Anyways, MPEG 4 seems cool.. is it the next version of MP3? Was there an MP2? MP1? Is MP4 a better quality of MP3 that allows streaming/movies? What is the advanced audio coding thing? Sorry for all the questions </STRONG>

MP3 = MPEG 1 Layer 3
MP4 = MPEG 4

There is no "MPEG 3"