[Kambei]

Okay,

We're supposedly allowed to make as many personal use copies as we want of things we own -- but that's of course not the case these days. Especially when it comes to video and VHS. I don't even know if this would present a problem, but here's a basic idea of what I want to do...

I'm a Star Wars geek, :-) -- And it's all the rave to make your own Phantom Menace, because one or two less Jar-Jar scenes might make for a slightly better movie -- and I have to be able to DV Capture from my VCR through my Dazzle Hollywood Bridge into my iMac. I haven't actually tried and failed yet -- but I'm told that, like VCR to VCR, there's a signal that'll block the video from being recorded, when you use copyright protected VHS.

Anyone know if this is true? If so, anyone know a way around it? :-)

~Dakota Goldsworth

[SirCastor]

Originally posted by Kambei:
<STRONG>Okay,

We're supposedly allowed to make as many personal use copies as we want of things we own -- but that's of course not the case these days. Especially when it comes to video and VHS. I don't even know if this would present a problem, but here's a basic idea of what I want to do...

I'm a Star Wars geek, :-) -- And it's all the rave to make your own Phantom Menace, because one or two less Jar-Jar scenes might make for a slightly better movie -- and I have to be able to DV Capture from my VCR through my Dazzle Hollywood Bridge into my iMac. I haven't actually tried and failed yet -- but I'm told that, like VCR to VCR, there's a signal that'll block the video from being recorded, when you use copyright protected VHS.

Anyone know if this is true? If so, anyone know a way around it? :-)

~Dakota Goldsworth</STRONG>

The only DV bridges which support Macrovision (The copyright protection scheme) are the Sony ones. Your Hollywood should work without a hitch.

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: SirCastor ]

[macwannabe]

Originally posted by SirCastor:
<STRONG>

The only DV bridges which support Macrovision (The copyright protection scheme) are the Sony ones. Your Hollywood should work without a hitch.

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: SirCastor ]</STRONG>

Does this mean that the ubiquitous Sony Digital Media Converter thing-a-ma-jig (I'm too lazy to go look up the model number, etc., but it's the one for sale online at apple w/ powermacs, etc...) won't convert a professionally duplicated VHS... say, one from Blockbuster or one purchased from the store? If so, why not? Are the other bridges as good as this one? (I've heard only great things about the Sony....)

Tnx,
macwannabe

[SirCastor]

Originally posted by macwannabe:
<STRONG>


Does this mean that the ubiquitous Sony Digital Media Converter thing-a-ma-jig (I'm too lazy to go look up the model number, etc., but it's the one for sale online at apple w/ powermacs, etc...) won't convert a professionally duplicated VHS... say, one from Blockbuster or one purchased from the store? If so, why not? Are the other bridges as good as this one? (I've heard only great things about the Sony....)

Tnx,
macwannabe


</STRONG>

I'll try to explain. A Good number of DVD players and more recent VCRs support a copyright protection scheme called Macrovision. Now I'm not an expert on this, but to basically sum it up, A VCR checks a certain amount of throughput going through, and tries to correct it to make sure the view quality (brightness most significantly) is appropriate. Macrovision tries to screw with this. The VCR corrects it on the way to your TV, but if you're trying to copy it, it doesn't correct. You end up with lines, spikes, and most often brightness problems in the copy.

The Sony unit is the only one that supports Macrovision, meaning, if you use it to copy, you end up with something as if you were making a video copy. The other bridges don't do it.. So you end up with a copy at near original quality.

Does that make it a little clearer? If you need to know more about Macrovision and how it works, do a quick search on Google, there are hundreds of sites that can explain it far better than I.

Oh, On another quick note.. Not all video cassettes are "protected" by Macrovision, and I'm pretty sure that the Macrovision Process has to be done at the manufactuer of the media. I'm almost absolutely positive that the commercial DVD standard requires macromedia endcoding as well, but DVD also uses a number of other protection schemes.

[ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: SirCastor ]

[macwannabe]

Originally posted by SirCastor:
<STRONG>

You end up with lines, spikes, and most often brightness problems in the copy.

The Sony unit is the only one that supports Macrovision, meaning, if you use it to copy, you end up with something as if you were making a video copy.

[ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: SirCastor ]</STRONG>

If I use the Sony unit on a Macrovision-encrypted video, can the problems (esp. brightness) be corrected in an editing suite, like FCP? It seems like they could be...

Are any of the other briges as easy to use and of a similar high quality to the Sony?

macwannabe

[SirCastor]

Originally posted by macwannabe:
<STRONG>

If I use the Sony unit on a Macrovision-encrypted video, can the problems (esp. brightness) be corrected in an editing suite, like FCP? It seems like they could be...

Are any of the other briges as easy to use and of a similar high quality to the Sony?

macwannabe</STRONG>

The kind of problems that are created by Macrovision are not editable out. The Brightness could be I suppose, but you're still losing a great deal of quality in the pull out. I would compare macrovision caused issues on a tape to those of trying to watch a premium channel on cable that you don't subscribe to.The picture might roll, it might be crooked, have large spikes in it, be negative (although I haven't seen negative happen with macrovision) as well as a number of other things.

As for Quality, I don't think there are any units that particularly lack. If you're looking for something nice you Might Try the ForMac Pro Studio thing. The Dazzle Hollywood DV bridge has gotten a lot of good reviews too. I would only avoid the Sony because it's expensive and the Copy protection. I don't think any amount of quality is worth my limiting work with stuff I already own.

[neutrino23]

Originally posted by Kambei:
<STRONG> I'm a Star Wars geek, :-) -- And it's all the rave to make your own Phantom Menace, because one or two less Jar-Jar scenes might make for a slightly better movie -- and I have to be able to DV Capture from my VCR through my Dazzle Hollywood Bridge into my iMac.</STRONG>

You realize of course that DV consumes about 200MB/min of video so that for a 120minute video you need about 24GB of HD space as well as the software to work with a file that big.

I don't think that Macrovision is a very strong form of copy protection. If you search around the web you can probably find some suggestions for defeating it. It mostly stops casual home copying.

[Kambei]

Thanks for all the replies,

Fortunately a follow poster was right, the Dazzle Hollywood DV-Bridge didn't pose any problems in terms of copyright protection (wow, I can actually do whatever I want with the items I bought, what a concept!).

Now, now I didn't know that DV takes up 200-220MB's of HD per Minute, until I tried it out, :-( At least I have entire half hours to work with before having to compress and move on to the next half hour.

This brings up the age old question of compressors and codecs though -- and/or the "perfect" combo of settings to Export via iMovie 2.1. I've currently found a decent setting that gets me about an hour or so's worth of compressed Quicktime onto a CDR -- but I could go for better quality if anyone knows the magic touch, :-)

~Dakota Goldsworth

[osiris]

Been doing this for years - try a Sony Media converter

When copy 'protected' tapes are played a little red light goes on the device - and that's it. The actual data is fine. I have copied tons of so-called protected items for personal use. The day I can't is the day the Madison Avenue Sony Building will be leveled to the fu*kin ground along with a few friends. Not for nothing, but Sony is attempting yet another protection scheme for it's MP3s on it's Clio PDAs. bastids - they just don't understand. The MPAA kiss-ups....

But whatever you use make sure you have plenty of drive space - 22 - 25 gbs for the movie. A sorenson compressed version of this movie at 29.97 frame rate with key frames every 12 and a max bit rate of 550 @320x240 playback doubled to 640x480 gives you a feature film that fits on a CD. Great for older computers without DVD.

good luck.

BTW - an iMac takes almost FOUR times longer to compress than a G4 running at the same clock speed - I ran my G4 against my Tangerine iMac (both 400 mhz) and the G4 finished DAYS ahead of the iMac - nearly 45 hours on the iMac to analyze and compress in Media Cleaner Pro.

[Kambei]

osiris,

Em, I tried that compression combo out on a 20 minute episode of a tv show -- and it was over 750MB's afterwards. Sorenson at 29.97 FRPS, Key Frames at 12, and type in 550 in the Data Bitrate, at 320x240?

~Dakota Goldsworth

[macwannabe]

Originally posted by osiris:
<STRONG>Been doing this for years - try a Sony Media converter

When copy 'protected' tapes are played a little red light goes on the device - and that's it. The actual data is fine. I have copied tons of so-called protected items for personal use</STRONG>

So, the Sony Media converter doesnt' cause all of the spikes, jerks, and brightness issues another poster described above???

If all that happens is a red light on the box, what's the point? Can anyone else using the Sony box confirm or deny all of this? I'm so confused...

macwannabe

[osiris]

Kambei: I don't know what happended there - that is a bit large for the specs and makes no sense. Right now I'm compressing a 56 minute feature and the file size is expected to be 340 mbs (and I chose a higher bit rate - 650). Certain aspects 'complicate' the process - like a lot of vibrant colors, quick movements, etc - but your size is still way to big for that kind of problem. BTW 640x480 is the playback - the file should be compressed at 320x240 then played back double - not compressed at the larger size &lt;== this is the only thing that will make your file so ghastily huge.


macwannabe: Yep! My Sony DVMC is almost two years old now and every tape works fine. This could be an early version of the DVMC - as I know a year or so ago there were some changes made to the design - maybe Sony enabled encryption at some point after. I don't want to steer anyone the wrong way, so here's my exact model number: DVMC-DA1

It's an interesting note that DVDs played through the DVMC are still encrypted - I can't capture those.

good luck - I'll pop back in here later but I'll be gone for a few days after that, so I may be late in responding.

[SirCastor]

Originally posted by osiris:
[QB

macwannabe: Yep! My Sony DVMC is almost two years old now and every tape works fine. This could be an early version of the DVMC - as I know a year or so ago there were some changes made to the design - maybe Sony enabled encryption at some point after. I don't want to steer anyone the wrong way, so here's my exact model number: DVMC-DA1
[/QB]

That explains that, The Second model (current I'm pretty sure) is the one I've read works with copyprotection.

<STRONG>

It's an interesting note that DVDs played through the DVMC are still encrypted - I can't capture those.

good luck - I'll pop back in here later but I'll be gone for a few days after that, so may be late in responding.
</STRONG>

There are a number of other things copy protection schemes in DVDs which make it a hassel to copy. Thankfully, there are tools available to make things easy:

lukifer.com

[osiris]

thanx for the links SirCastor

I have the second version of the Sony Media converter (bought it quite recently, actually) and had no trouble copying (fair use, obviously) a protected VHS. As mentioned by others, the red "protect" light was on during the process. I guess Sony was counting on the mighty red light to make you feel bad about your copy protection infringement.

By the way, in my opinion the Sony product is the best available considering price and quality.

[SirCastor]

Originally posted by &lt;The Monka&gt;:
<STRONG>I have the second version of the Sony Media converter (bought it quite recently, actually) and had no trouble copying (fair use, obviously) a protected VHS. As mentioned by others, the red "protect" light was on during the process. I guess Sony was counting on the mighty red light to make you feel bad about your copy protection infringement.

By the way, in my opinion the Sony product is the best available considering price and quality.</STRONG>

Well heck! I've sure read an awful lot of hooplah about this thing to end up getting no results. Sigh. Lame.
oh well, as long as it works, I guess it's good. Beware the red light I guess..

[havannas]

To elaborate, Macrovision exploits the "Automatic Gain Control" circuitry that is found in VCRs but which TVs do not have. The AGC attempts to keep the incoming video signal's strength @ a set amount. Let's use 1.0v for our example. A VCR is hooked up to another VCR sending out its signal via coax or RCA (not sure if S-video is affected). The client VCR expects to recieve a signal within a certain range. If it detects a lower strength signal it will boost the signal(assuming cable length or some other thing has impeded it's strength) to the correct level before sending it to the rest of its circuits. Likewise if the strength is higher than usual it will lower it to an acceptable level. Normally a weaker or stronger signal will remain relatively the same strength, perhaps slowly deteiriorating or slowy returning to proper levels. The AGC circuitry in the VCRs are able to handle these slowly changing levels by adjust to them accordingly. They cannot however deal with a continously and rapidly changing signal. In this example Macrovision encoded video may begin at say .7v.... the receiver would boost the low signal to raise it to @ 1.0v... as that is happening the encoded videos signal has changed, quickly raising to 1.2v.... which the AGC raises even higher thinking it is still at .7v .....the result is 1.5v and an overly bright picture..... the circuit finally sees that this is way to high and tries to reduce the 1.5 to 1.0v by subtracting .5v....of course the encoded video has already dropped back down to maybe .9v resulting in a signal that is .4v after AGC....again the circuit tries to adjust upwards..... back and forth this goes throughout the film, with the encoded signal strength radomly changing the whole time, resulting in the picture getting to dark, then overly bright...back and forth.....

Of course I've simplified the process and overstated the changes in signal strength to illustrated my point. The change might be miniscule.... maybe like going from .995v to 1.005v. Still the AGC cannot and is not built to react to a continously, quickly changing signal. TV's generally do do not have this AGC and will just display the video from a serving VCR with an almost imperceivable brightness fluctuation(not trying and failing to fix the signal as the client VCR does). For videotape the Macrovion encoding is part of the mastering process and occurs before the original video is recorded on the tape. DVDs are different in that the video contains no Macrovision encoding but rather have a bit on the disc or videoTrack which tells the DVD player that it should take the original signal and distort its voltage as it leaves the player, thereby disabling quality recording on any inline VCRs. This is what allows "Macrovision Free" DVD players.... just have to disable the macrovision circuit through a hardware or software hack. Of course their are VCRs that do not have ACG and can much better duplicate a video tape (macrovision and all). And there are Macrovision defeaters that are put inline between 2 VCRs which can rapidly correct the voltage changes and any sync errors Macrovision may introduce.

The end.

Disclaimer.... I'm not an electrician, but these are in laymens terms the mechanics of macrovision. Anyone more schooled in the dark art of video scrambling, please elaborate and correct...I'm always looking to learn more.