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Jbos · Jun 8, 2002, 11:47 AM

I've heard a million and one ways to do this, but I haven't really tried many of them. Anybody have any truly effective methods?

godzookie2k · Jun 8, 2002, 12:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
I've heard a million and one ways to do this, but I haven't really tried many of them. Anybody have any truly effective methods?

<hr /></blockquote>Nah, its kind of like trying to make a digital camera picture look like 35mm. Sure it may pass the "untrained-eye" test by throwing a little noise on the image, but to the "trained" eye it'll look digital with a noise filter on it, know what I mean? Personally, I don't think its worth trying to fake it. Digital is what it is, and I think most people accept that. Trying to make digital *look* like film.....why bother?

Nick

ericwass · Jun 8, 2002, 12:35 PM

There's no one right way. That's why you've heard a million of them. Perhaps you should try some and find out your personal favorite. Mine involves attaching a Lo-Con filter and a Pro-Mist Black filter to the camera and shooting with a 1/30 speed shutter.

wulf · Jun 8, 2002, 12:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
I've heard a million and one ways to do this, but I haven't really tried many of them. Anybody have any truly effective methods?

<hr /></blockquote>Shoot it well, with high production values. Light your subjects well, create atmosphere with lighting and set. Use dollies, not zoom. Use a steadicam (or cheaper stabilizer) if you go handheld. Record and mix your audio properly. Pay attention to sets and costume, and the overall 'design' aesthetic of your movie.

These are the things that will make it look 'cinematic' - much more so than adding a Cinelook filter anyway...

Jbos · Jun 8, 2002, 08:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wulf:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
I've heard a million and one ways to do this, but I haven't really tried many of them. Anybody have any truly effective methods?

<hr /></blockquote>Shoot it well, with high production values. Light your subjects well, create atmosphere with lighting and set. Use dollies, not zoom. Use a steadicam (or cheaper stabilizer) if you go handheld. Record and mix your audio properly. Pay attention to sets and costume, and the overall 'design' aesthetic of your movie.
<hr /></blockquote>I think you missed my point.

I appreciate your tips, but that's not what I was looking for. I have a deep working knowledge of filmmaking, and I don't exactly need the kind of advice you're offering.

Many of the features I've made have been screened at theaters, and much of the criticism I've recieved have to do with colors looking too saturated or the images having unnatural sharpness. Therefore, it's important for me to obtain a certain look to the images I create, but I can't afford a Panavision camera (which costs upwards from $1 million each) and I also can't afford all the equipment requiring for shooting with a PV, such as filters, high-end tripods, etc. The only way for me to get the look I want is to do it in post. The production end of my films is not a concern at this time.

If we all thought the way that you did, we would not need to edit images in Photoshop or re-master audio, becuase it would all be perfect to begin with.

Zytryx · Jun 9, 2002, 12:14 AM

First get cinelook for FCP, you can pick diffrent film stocks to make the DV look like that film, of course change to 24 FPS, and this is the kicker, deinterlace the footage odd then deinterlace a copy even and place this on top at 50% opacity. This always looks great to me, if you want ot make it grainy looking cinelook can do that or quicktime compression can ad a quite good filmish grain. Color I just adjust in FCP and usually add a little blue to it.

Z

Jbos · Jun 9, 2002, 11:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zytryx:
First get cinelook for FCP, you can pick diffrent film stocks to make the DV look like that film, of course change to 24 FPS, and this is the kicker, deinterlace the footage odd then deinterlace a copy even and place this on top at 50% opacity. This always looks great to me, if you want ot make it grainy looking cinelook can do that or quicktime compression can ad a quite good filmish grain. Color I just adjust in FCP and usually add a little blue to it.

Z<hr /></blockquote>Thanks. I think I'll try CineLook. I've used the de-interlace method before, but it didn't seem to make the radical difference that I was expecting. <img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

Zytryx · Jun 9, 2002, 02:24 PM

Cinelook does wonders, it's a great plugin, I'm not sure if they have it for OS X though, but it'll work in OS 9 in FCP 3

Z

wulf · Jun 10, 2002, 02:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
I think you missed my point.

I appreciate your tips, but that's not what I was looking for. I have a deep working knowledge of filmmaking, and I don't exactly need the kind of advice you're offering.

Many of the features I've made have been screened at theaters, and much of the criticism I've recieved have to do with colors looking too saturated or the images having unnatural sharpness. Therefore, it's important for me to obtain a certain look to the images I create, but I can't afford a Panavision camera (which costs upwards from $1 million each) and I also can't afford all the equipment requiring for shooting with a PV, such as filters, high-end tripods, etc. The only way for me to get the look I want is to do it in post. The production end of my films is not a concern at this time.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry for missing your point - I guess I was just reminded of all those "How do I make my video look like film?" posts you get on 2-pop and the like... hope I didn't sound too terse there

Two of the things you mention, saturation and sharpness, can be tweaked if your camera supports it. Lots of people love the Tiffen Black Pro Mist and Diffusion filters. I think Tiffen actually market a set of filters as a "DV filmlook kit" now.

Generally I take saturation down some and push the gamma up a little in post. I don't like using CineLook so much for the same reason godzookie2k gave: It's basically adding noise to the image, and I like to try and preserve as much image quality as possible, given the limited resolution of DV. But I must say CineLook is very good at what it does, I've used it to great effect for music videos and the like. There is also CineMotion (also by <a href="http://www.digieffects.com/index2.html" target="_blank">DigiEffects</a>) which simulates film motion and other qualities, but I haven't tried it.

Another tool for adding grain is <a href="http://www.visinf.com/gs/ae/" target="_blank">GrainSurgery</a> - sounds very interesting, but again haven't tried it...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If we all thought the way that you did, we would not need to edit images in Photoshop or re-master audio, becuase it would all be perfect to begin with.

<hr /></blockquote>Ahh, if only <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I guess I react badly (i.e. irrationally) to the "fix it in post" attitude because I'm generally the one who has to do the fixing. As a result I try and get everything good on the shoot, so when I'm editing I can concentrate on editing and not fixing...

[ 06-10-2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: wulf ]

wulf · Jun 10, 2002, 02:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zytryx:
Cinelook does wonders, it's a great plugin, I'm not sure if they have it for OS X though, but it'll work in OS 9 in FCP 3

Z<hr /></blockquote>Yep, it's updated for OS X / AE 5.5. As are Cinemotion, Aurorix and Beserk.

<a href="http://www.digieffects.com/index2.html" target="_blank">http://www.digieffects.com/index2.html</a>

jcarr · Jun 11, 2002, 02:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
I've heard a million and one ways to do this, but I haven't really tried many of them. Anybody have any truly effective methods?

<hr /></blockquote>I guess it depends on what kind of film you want your iMovie to look like.

You could always convert to black and white, apply the 'Film Noise' QuickTime filter, and remove the audio track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Jbos · Jun 11, 2002, 03:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jcarr:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
I've heard a million and one ways to do this, but I haven't really tried many of them. Anybody have any truly effective methods?

<hr /></blockquote>I guess it depends on what kind of film you want your iMovie to look like.

You could always convert to black and white, apply the 'Film Noise' QuickTime filter, and remove the audio track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Perhaps you should read the other posts in this thread before you assume something like this.

I am not using iMove. I am using Final Cut Pro. I am looking for some methods a little bit more sophisticated than the ones you're presenting.

I consider myself to be a pretty seasoned filmmaker, and it annoys me that you didn't read the other 10 posts in the thread before telling me something I learned in my middle school video class.

Go ahead and read the rest of the thread, then maybe you can give me some more reasonable suggestions.
<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

Hydra · Jun 11, 2002, 04:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jcarr:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:
I've heard a million and one ways to do this, but I haven't really tried many of them. Anybody have any truly effective methods?

<hr /></blockquote>I guess it depends on what kind of film you want your iMovie to look like.

You could always convert to black and white, apply the 'Film Noise' QuickTime filter, and remove the audio track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Perhaps you should read the other posts in this thread before you assume something like this.

I am not using iMove. I am using Final Cut Pro. I am looking for some methods a little bit more sophisticated than the ones you're presenting.

I consider myself to be a pretty seasoned filmmaker, and it annoys me that you didn't read the other 10 posts in the thread before telling me something I learned in my middle school video class.

Go ahead and read the rest of the thread, then maybe you can give me some more reasonable suggestions.
<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Maybe you should consider upgrading from iMovie to a more professional app like FCP to do what you want <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> - Just kidding I read the thread...

Actually Apple had a questionnaire that if filled out would give you a free CGM Film plugin for FCP 3.0.2. I tried it and it seems to work pretty good to quote the readme
"CGM Film LE (available exclusively to online upgrades of Final Cut Pro 3.0.2) is a special version of Filmlook; one of over 40 effects and transitions included in the CGM DVE Vol.2+ package from CGM <www.cgm-online.com>.

CGM Film LE is a tool designed to make your DV footage look less like video and more like film. Use the presets as starting points, adjusting the controls to get just the look you're after.

HOW DOES IT WORK?

The following adjustments are available to the CGM Film LE filter:

- The "Variation" slider selects various default settings of the filter. The CGM Film LE filter assigned to the same clip with the same Variation setting will produce an identical result. To vary the results from clip to clip, choose different variation settings.
- The "Stripes" section allows you to define the frequency and amount of the stripes inherent to damaged film.
- The "Grain" section allows you to change the size and the visibility of the film grain. Additionally you can select between two grain modes. "Grain over whole image" simulates film which was duplicated and converted to video. "Less grain in bright areas" simulates video which was scanned directly from film.
- The "Trapped Hair" slider allows you to define the frequency of the trapped hair; commonplace with old, dirty film.
- The "Tint" section allows you to simulate the age or mood of the film. If you increase the amount of tint and leave the preset color as brown, the film appears to get older and older. Eventually it will loose its original color and the result will be very old, sepia tinted footage. To desaturate video, assign a grey color as the tint color. The amount of desaturation will be defined by adjusting the amount of tint. To alter the mood of the film, try assigning a blue tint to give a cool, dark feeling, or an orange/yellow tint to give a warm, welcoming feeling."
Hope this helps...
the link at Apple follows:

<a href="http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/download/questions.html" target="_blank">FCP questionnaire</a>
-Jerry C

Jun 11, 2002, 07:53 PM

how come you have replied in a most unprofessional manner to all of the suggestions. nobody here has any idea of all of your qualifications, history, or the such. you asked for assistance, but have shot down every reply with "I'm a seasoned filmmaker" or "I have a deep working knowledge".

If it's such a concern that it looks like video, shoot 16mm and go buy a bunch of ends to save money.

Otherwise, you need to understand that when you ask for something and provide no background, the answers are going to be geared to someone that may need assistance or direction.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I consider myself to be a pretty seasoned filmmaker, and it annoys me that you didn't read the other 10 posts in the thread before telling me something I learned in my middle school video class. <hr /></blockquote>Well, if thats what you learned in middle class, by high school video you should have learned how to compensate for color saturation or image sharpness.

No wonder you receive a good amount of criticism.

It's people like you that give people like us a bad name. Oh, and if you are wondering why i posted unregistered, it's because i forgot my login and didn't feel like looking it up, just like you don't feel like experimenting with ways to make video look more like film so your screenings will look more professional.

Jbos · Jun 12, 2002, 12:14 PM

[edit]

[ 06-12-2002, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Jbos ]

neutrino23 · Jun 14, 2002, 03:19 AM

Try LA FCP users group (www.lafcpug.org). I recall they had several articles on this topic. Their objective was not to capture the noise or streakiness of old film but the mood of film compared to the harshness of video.

dialo · Jun 17, 2002, 01:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:

I consider myself to be a pretty seasoned filmmaker...<hr /></blockquote>I'm going to have to agree with opago. You have a real attitude problem and your question shows you are a bit of a novice. If you are "seasoned" enough to be snotty, and I don't think being "seasoned" allows you to be snotty, one of the initial things you would learn is the differences between film and video.

It's an in-depth debate and you need to understand a lot more than filters to get what you are looking for. Whether it really doesn't look like film is open for debate, since every "seasoned" editor knows it can be easy to trick even a trained eye. I also agree that it's entirely questionable whether there is a perceptible difference, though my belief is that there is one (aside from resolution). Regardless, there's no reason to be so cocky. If you are as successful as you act, there would have to be at least one person around you aware of the possibilities and pressing factors.

Wulf's advice was probably the best, though they were all good. I'm also suprised such a "seasoned" Final Cut user didn't already check LAFCPUG

[ 06-17-2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: dialo ]

andymcdeee · Jun 17, 2002, 09:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dialo:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jbos:

I consider myself to be a pretty seasoned filmmaker...<hr /></blockquote>I'm going to have to agree with opago. You have a real attitude problem and your question shows you are a bit of a novice. If you are "seasoned" enough to be snotty, and I don't think being "seasoned" allows you to be snotty, one of the initial things you would learn is the differences between film and video.<hr /></blockquote>I agree as well. Put your resume where your mouth is and get come manners.
<img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

Jbos · Jun 18, 2002, 08:32 PM

Hey, everybody calm down already! I didn't mean to offend anybody. I have checked the LA user's group many times in the past. I made it pretty clear earlier that I've tried several methods, but I wanted to get some opinions from normal people concerning what has and hasn't worked for them. There's really no need to pick apart my every word. I don't think I was being snotty nor cocky, but I apoligize if you think that.

Sorry that I didn't make my backround more clear. I still think it's pretty irrelevent, but you can email me (jbos91@mac.com) if you want to take this further. It's fine for you to get angry at me, I just would rather not be forced to deal with it in a public place where people have better things to discuss.