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Jernberg · Jun 16, 2002, 08:53 AM

Well, i'm wondering, can i buy a DVD+RW drive, such as the Ricoh 5125A and use it for DVD video authoring. From what my research has given me so far, Apple's DVD Studio Pro is only compatible with DVD-R drives (such as Pioneer A-03, A-04).

Is there any authoring app that supports DVD+RW burners??

Dennis

mbryda · Jun 17, 2002, 07:40 AM

Why?
From what I've heard, DVD+RW is LESS compatable with current (and older) DVD players than DVD-RW. Media costs are about the same, so why not go with DVD-RW?

Jernberg · Jun 18, 2002, 11:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mbryda:
Why?
From what I've heard, DVD+RW is LESS compatable with current (and older) DVD players than DVD-RW. Media costs are about the same, so why not go with DVD-RW?<hr /></blockquote>Why? Well, as for data archiving, you cannot ADD files to a DVD-RW disk INCREMENTALY. (Only supports one session)
DVD+RW, on the other hand you can use as a giant Zip disk, add and delete files as you wish.

Maybe it is less compatible with DVD-video players, i dunno, but for storage, I'd go for DVD+RW.

Dennis

mbryda · Jun 20, 2002, 08:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jernberg:
Why? Well, as for data archiving, you cannot ADD files to a DVD-RW disk INCREMENTALY. (Only supports one session)
DVD+RW, on the other hand you can use as a giant Zip disk, add and delete files as you wish.

Maybe it is less compatible with DVD-video players, i dunno, but for storage, I'd go for DVD+RW.
<hr /></blockquote>I see. I thought Toast would let you add another session to a DVD-RW. I havn't played with it much, so I'm not sure.

[ 06-20-2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: mbryda ]

Eug · Jun 24, 2002, 04:47 PM

Well, a DVD-RAM/-R drive might suit your purposes. DVD Studio Pro supports DVD-RAM, as does Toast.

More importantly, DVD-RAM functions like a hard drive with no extra drivers. You can format and read/write in HFS+ no problem. No burning software needed at all.

Considering the strong DVD Forum slant of Mac hardware and software, I think it'd be a bad idea to get a + format drive. Not even Toast supports DVD+RW, AFAIK.

***EDIT***
I am incorrect. Despite Roxio's FAQ which makes no mention of support for either DVD+RW or DVD+R, a message below confirms support for +RW. Dunno about +R yet though.
***/EDIT***

By the way, if you're talking about packetwriting, both DVD+RW and DVD-RW can do packet writing with appropriate drivers to make the discs into a giant zip disk.... on a PC. I just wouldn't trust my important data to it with either of the above, or with CD-RW either, because packet writing is notoriously unreliable.

[ 06-26-2002, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Eug ]

JohnCoffee · Jun 25, 2002, 03:57 PM

Just bought a MP5120 DVD+RW drive from Ricoh....

>Considering the strong DVD Forum slant of Mac hardware and software, I think it'd be a bad idea to get a + format drive. Not even Toast supports DVD+RW, AFAIK.

Burning a +RW disk in Toast 5.1.3 works perfect. Even adding files after burning is just that simple and worked too.. ! (try that with -RW. It doesn't work)

DVD+RW is the future media for rewritable DVD's to author DVD's and putting your homemade movies onto. Also Backups just kicks ass with it.

The the +RW is not supported in the DVD Forum is even not a problem at all. It just works on almost every DVD player. Believe me. By the way, I copied a bunch of files for backup reasons onto a DVD+RW disk and a friend with his built in Superdrive on his TFT iMac could read it without a hitch.

Go for it dudes. You can't go wrong. Production of disks at CMC in Taiwan is being ramped up currently - They will flood the market - and the japanese DVD-RAM fraction is already now worried and fearing the coming success of the DVD+RW disk..

just my 2 cents.

"a insider" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

CodeWarrior · Jun 25, 2002, 05:31 PM

Have you looked at the Panasonice DVD-RAM/R drive? It is a DVD-RAM drive that can burn DVD-R. DVD-R is the most compatable format for DVD players. DVD+R is the second most. DVD+RW is the least.

I'm not sure of Mac software though (Toast?).

JohnCoffee · Jun 25, 2002, 05:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> DVD+R is the second most. DVD+RW is the least.
<hr /></blockquote>please .....

you are way wrong. Who told you that ? Where did you get your information from? You are way wrong. really. DVD+RW is in the almost same way compatible as -R or +R. All players available today play it without a hitch. Even my 2 year old Pioneer DV525 plays DVD+RW.

RAM is out in the dust. This is the least compatible format.

again - my 2 cents.

Eug · Jun 25, 2002, 11:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JohnCoffee:
Burning a +RW disk in Toast 5.1.3 works perfect.<hr /></blockquote>I didn't know DVD+RW worked with Toast. That's good. Time for Roxio to update their FAQ since their FAQ makes no mention of + format support. Come to think of it, isn't this new with 5.1.3? I wonder if it works with +R too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JohnCoffee:
Just bought a MP5120 DVD+RW drive from Ricoh....<hr /></blockquote>Quite frankly, I am not sure a 1st generation +RW drive is a good idea at this time, unless you got a really good price on the drive. These drives do not work with +R media, and cannot be updated to do so either.

It is well known that neither DVD-RW nor DVD+RW are compatible enough to wholeheartedly recommend either for DVD video playback. It might work with your few machines, but the online databases indicate that both of those technologies are probably in the 50-70% range for compatibility. DVD-R and DVD+R have much higher rates of compatibility. If you want confirmation of this, check out the <a href="http://www.vcdhelp.com" target="_blank">www.vcdhelp.com</a> DVD player database. By the way, it is also well known that the SuperDrive reads DVD+RW, ironically.

If you want a Ricoh DVD+RW drive, IMO the only drive to get is the 5125, since it is a 2nd generation drive (which burns both +RW and +R). If it isn't too late, I'd recommend returning the drive and putting the money towards a 5125. There's only about a US$50 price difference between the 5120 and 5125 usually.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JohnCoffee:
Go for it dudes. You can't go wrong. Production of disks at CMC in Taiwan is being ramped up currently - They will flood the market<hr /></blockquote>It's interesting you should post that. Yes, production is being ramped up, but if anything, most of the ramping up seems to be going to DVD-R. The market is currently being flooded with inexpensive DVD-R, with discs now in the under $1 range (not that I would buy a $1 disc at this point).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JohnCoffee:
...the japanese DVD-RAM fraction is already now worried and fearing the coming success of the DVD+RW disk..<hr /></blockquote>Well, competition is good.

Anyways, right now DVD-RAM is preferred in two niche markets. 1) Pro data storage 2) set top DVD recorders. I don't see #1 changing much in the near future. OTOH, DVD-RAM has over half of the market for #2, probably because the machines are the cheapest (under US$600, despite being fairly feature rich) and (so far) the least buggy, and because they've been around for quite a long time. If this persists over the next year, then it may (or may not) affect the PC market.

[ 06-26-2002, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Eug ]

CodeWarrior · Jun 26, 2002, 11:25 AM

JohnCoffee wrote:
you are way wrong. Who told you that ? Where did you get your information from? You are way wrong. really. DVD+RW is in the almost same way compatible as -R or +R. All players available today play it without a hitch.

That's good to know. I based my opinion on reviews on CNet and the sites listed by EUG and a few other sites. The guides all seem to state that for DVD player compatability, it's:
1. DVD-R
2. DVD+R
3. DVD+RW

Of course your mileage may very based on the player you are using. You sound like you have more of an insider view, so I'll defer to you. Mine is strictly as a curious outsider.

Eiher way, if you are talking DVD authoring on the Mac you need burn support in DVD Studio Pro (or iDVD) or Toast. If these don't support DVD+RW, it's a moot point for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

It looks like Toast 5.1.3 supports DVD+RW, but you will have to author in iDVD or DVD Studio Pro and burn in Toast since Toast isn't an authoring package.
<a href="http://www.roxio.com/en/products/toast/toast5featcomp.html" target="_blank">Roxio Toast 5 feature comparsion</a>

Jun 26, 2002, 03:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CodeWarrior:
JohnCoffee wrote:
you are way wrong. Who told you that ? Where did you get your information from? You are way wrong. really. DVD+RW is in the almost same way compatible as -R or +R. All players available today play it without a hitch.

That's good to know. I based my opinion on reviews on CNet and the sites listed by EUG and a few other sites. The guides all seem to state that for DVD player compatability, it's:
1. DVD-R
2. DVD+R
3. DVD+RW

Of course your mileage may very based on the player you are using. You sound like you have more of an insider view, so I'll defer to you. Mine is strictly as a curious outsider.

Eiher way, if you are talking DVD authoring on the Mac you need burn support in DVD Studio Pro (or iDVD) or Toast. If these don't support DVD+RW, it's a moot point for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

It looks like Toast 5.1.3 supports DVD+RW, but you will have to author in iDVD or DVD Studio Pro and burn in Toast since Toast isn't an authoring package.
<a href="http://www.roxio.com/en/products/toast/toast5featcomp.html" target="_blank">Roxio Toast 5 feature comparsion</a><hr /></blockquote>You are more or less correct with your compatibility list. It's more like:

1) DVD-R with DVD+R in the same ballpark
3) DVD-RW and DVD+RW in the same ballpark.

To be honest, I doubt John's an "insider", because in most circumstances it would seem that the purchase of the 5120 would be out of character for a true insider, given that the 5125 is already available.

As for authoring with DVD Studio Pro and burning with Toast, actually that's not such a bad thing. Toast gives you the benefit of adding DVD-ROM content to your DVD, while DVD Studio Pro simply burns a DVD-Video disc. And if you can afford DVD Studio Pro, Toast isn't much of an added expense.

JohnCoffee · Jun 26, 2002, 05:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
To be honest, I doubt John's an "insider", because in most circumstances it would seem that the purchase of the 5120 would be out of character for a true insider, given that the 5125 is already available.
<hr /></blockquote>John is a insider. Really.

1st.: I got the 5120 and not the 5125, due to the fact, that it is being on sale at Yodobashi camera in Tokyo Japan for 200 USD, where the the 5125 still is about double that price.

2nd.: I don't need no DVD+R drive now, and also not in near future. I bet fully on the rewritable format. (see 3 below) As I play around here a lot authoring DVD's - i'm just happy to use and re-use the rewritable's. +R discs would cost me a lot more at the end of the day. I generally hate coasters.....

3rd.: From the manufacturing stand point of view (now here's the real insider info

- DVD+R (like CD-R and DVD-R) are consisting of a so called Dye coat. This dye coat works nice on CD-R but on DVD there is a fundamental issue with it: The "post heating problem". DVD tracks and pits are that narrow, that the pits do disturb and erase themselves upon higher recording speed. A written pit disturbs the following pit to be written. That leads now to the problem, that 4X DVD+R or -R disks are already very difficult in the manufacturing process. Bad quality DVD-R are very likely to appear on the market. Faster speeds for Dye coated DVD-R will not appear soon. (Also the quality of DVD-R discs available is sometimes very bad. Just check out VivaStar's disc as a example. Their discs and quality is out of spec. most of the time)
On the other hand, faster speed for writing is no problem with the phase change layer incorporated in the DVD+RW discs. There, we have a maximum of 2.4X at the moment for 1000 so called DOW cycles. (direct overwrite cycles - a DVD-R discs has now just 1 DOW cycle - thats obvious). Now with less than 1..5 DOW cycles, writing speed has reached already 6X without problems for the phase change DVD+RW.

Hence, its most probably more likely, that DVD+RW discs will be spreaded more than DVD+R discs. Or at least, all DVD's with higher speed in future are based on phase change layer technology rather than Dye technology. If that is the case - prices should be identical for both discs due to reason, that the same production equipment will be used.

Again - just my 2 cents.

A Insider

John

Eug · Jun 26, 2002, 08:34 PM

It's irrelevant if you can write quickly to DVD+RW if the discs do not work on DVD players, assuming you wish to actually distribute your discs. For use for yourself, DVD+RW will be fine of course and $200 is a very good price.

4X DVD-R media (which is very similar to DVD+R media) has already been announced, from Mitsui (which as you probably already know is a very well-regarded company). Interestingly, 4X DVD-RW media (which is very similar to DVD+RW media) has not been announced.

JohnCoffee · Jun 27, 2002, 04:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Originally posted by Eug:
It's irrelevant if you can write quickly to DVD+RW if the discs do not work on DVD players, assuming you wish to actually distribute your discs. For use for yourself, DVD+RW will be fine of course and $200 is a very good price.
<hr /></blockquote>You don't get the point Eug. The DVD+RW disc simply work on almost every DVD player. (chances here are higher than 90%).
Since the reflectivity of the DVD-RW and DVD+RW discs is very similar (around 20%) both discs are about equally in compatibility for playback on DVD players. I just don't understand, why everyone thinks, that DVD+RW should be less compatible than DVD-RW.
Anyway, DVD-RW is still limited to 1X recording, even on the newest DVR-A04 recorder from Pioneer. DVD+RW is already today 2.4X

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 
4X DVD-R media (which is very similar to DVD+R media) has already been announced, from Mitsui (which as you probably already know is a very well-regarded company). Interestingly, 4X DVD-RW media (which is very similar to DVD+RW media) has not been announced.<hr /></blockquote>sure 4X has been announced, but it will be the ultimate speed achievable with conventional chemical dye coat. At least for now. With phase change materials (used in DVD+-RW), 6X speeds are achieved easily in the labs. But not for 1000DOW cycles as it should be. For 1DOW cycle, it would work perfect.

Some other info:
- only DVD+RW provides lossless linking due to its high wobble frequency of its groove structure (in other words this makes it possible, that you can append new data simple). DVD-RW has no high frequency wobbled groove - lossless linking doesn't work there.
- There is no std. yet defined for DVD-RW high speed media. Currently, manufactures there change the material for the reflective layer from AlTi (Aluminum-Titanium) to Ag (Silver). To be mentioned here is that DVD+RW used Ag as the reflector material from the beginning.

Of course I regret, that a DVD+RW drive like the Ricoh 5120 or 5125 is not supported by Apple in iDVD2 for example. But this is also true for Firewire DVD-RW drives. But I guess Apple with support them sooner or later. I'm pretty confident on that.

cheers

John <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[ 06-27-2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: JohnCoffee ]

Eug · Jun 27, 2002, 05:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JohnCoffee:

You don't get the point Eug. The DVD+RW disc simply work on almost every DVD player. (chances here are higher than 90%).<hr /></blockquote>This may be true for you, but this is definitely not true if you look at the market at large. There are several pro-DVD+RW sites which claim otherwise, but they are incorrect if you look at real world reviews and experiences (which are widely reported).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Since the reflectivity of the DVD-RW and DVD+RW discs is very similar (around 20%) both discs are about equally in compatibility for playback on DVD players. I just don't understand, why everyone thinks, that DVD+RW should be less compatible than DVD-RW.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, some machines have been built to work with certain formats but may not work with others even if the format and media is very similar. Nonetheless, overall, compatibility between DVD-RW and DVD+RW is similar, and significantly lower for both than both DVD+R and DVD-R.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Anyway, DVD-RW is still limited to 1X recording, even on the newest DVR-A04 recorder from Pioneer. DVD+RW is already today 2.4X<hr /></blockquote>Correct.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Some other info:
- only DVD+RW provides lossless linking due to its high wobble frequency of its groove structure (in other words this makes it possible, that you can append new data simple). DVD-RW has no high frequency wobbled groove - lossless linking doesn't work there.<hr /></blockquote>Heheh, you sound like you've been reading a few pages I've seen, which kind of leave out specific information about specific technologies but not others. If you must know, DVD-RW uses a wobbled groove. Check out the tech page from Optodisc, who make their living making phase change (and other) media. <a href="http://www.optodisc.com/tech_info02.html" target="_blank">DVD-RW uses wobbled groove</a>.

I'm not up to the specs for various forms of lossless linking, but: The CD spec requires less than 100 um for an intact data stream, but first iterations of BurnProof are under 40 um and technologies like JustLink etc, are under 5 um. I believe the latest CD-R bufferunderrun technologies are under 1 um, which I'm told is similar to what is spec'd for DVD+RW. I don't know what the exact specs are for bufferunderrun protection (which interestingly I believe DVD Studio Pro calls "lossless linking") for DVD-RW media are though.

It's interesting to note that these theoretical considerations may be moot anyways, as the implementation may not always be ideal. For instance, it is reported that the editing capabilities of the Pioneer set top DVD recorder surpass those of the corresponding Philips.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Of course I regret, that a DVD+RW drive like the Ricoh 5120 or 5125 is not supported by Apple in iDVD2 for example. But this is also true for Firewire DVD-RW drives. But I guess Apple with support them sooner or later. I'm pretty confident on that.<hr /></blockquote>Considering that Apple makes money by supporting DVD - formats, I don't see Apple in any hurry to support DVD+RW. This is important for DVD Studio Pro since it does work with external drives, although one can just use Toast to burn, and as you said, it works with DVD+RW. I dunno if it works with DVD+R though - does anyone know?

For private use that's fine, but it should be noted that most commercial mastering houses use equipment that may be incompatible with DVD+ formats. Thus if you're going to be using DVD Studio Pro for commercial DVDs (even on a small scale) it may be prudent to use some form of DVD-R. Then again, for $1000, not too many private individuals are going to be buying DVD Studio Pro so this solution of using this program for private individuals may not be realistic. Strangely enough, one person so far has reported that iDVD 2 does work with internal DVD-RAM though.

For $200, you did get a good deal on your drive. However, I think it's jumping the gun to think that DVD+RW is the format of choice for everyone. Indeed, even on the DVD+RW sites, DVD+R is highly preferred to DVD+RW for certain uses, and if cost is an issue, DVD-R may be preferred for many individuals. And for data and set top video recording, DVD-RAM may be preferred by some.

[ 06-27-2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Eug ]

JohnCoffee · Jun 30, 2002, 02:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Some other info:
- only DVD+RW provides lossless linking due to its high wobble frequency of its groove structure (in other words this makes it possible, that you can append new data simple). DVD-RW has no high frequency wobbled groove - lossless linking doesn't work there.

Heheh, you sound like you've been reading a few pages I've seen, which kind of leave out specific information about specific technologies but not others. If you must know, DVD-RW uses a wobbled groove. Check out the tech page from Optodisc, who make their living making phase change (and other) media. <a href="http://www.optodisc.com/tech_info02.html" target="_blank">DVD-RW uses wobbled groove</a>.

<hr /></blockquote>I didn't say, that DVD-RW has no wobbled groove. I said that DVD-RW has no high frequency wobbled groove. It's indeed true - The 817kHz wooble of the DVD+RW disk allows to lossless link tracks. The wooble frequency of the DVD-RW is much lower. I don't know the frequency however....

DVD SP really supports external Firewire DVD-RW drives ? What about DVD+RW drives ??

cheers

John

Eug · Jul 1, 2002, 01:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />DVD SP really supports external Firewire DVD-RW drives ? What about DVD+RW drives ??<hr /></blockquote>DVD Studio Pro supports writing to DVD-R, DVD-RAM, and DLT tape. A few examples of listed Firewire drives supported include those which use internally the Pioneer DVR-104 (for DVD-R only and not DVD-RW I don't think), or the Panasonic LF-D311 (for I believe both DVD-RAM and DVD-R). There is no listed support for either DVD+RW or DVD+R.

From the <a href="http://www.apple.com/dvdstudiopro/faq.html" target="_blank">DVD Studio Pro FAQ</a>:

To what formats can I output a project authored in DVD Studio Pro?
After you complete authoring and testing your project in DVD Studio Pro, the software allows you to output your work in the format that best fits your audience and budget. You can:

* Output your project in DVD-R format and record it using the DVD-R drive on your new Power Mac G4, or deliver it to a DVD service bureau for recording.
* Transfer your project to digital tape and deliver it to a replicator for mass duplication.
* Select DVD-RAM format to record your project using a computer DVD-RAM drive. This is an inexpensive way to test your project before committing it to other media.

Which DVD recorders does DVD Studio Pro support?
DVD Studio Pro supports the Apple SuperDrive available on select Power Mac G4 and iMac systems, as well as a number of external third-party DVD-R drives. Check the DVD Studio Pro website at for the latest information.

[ 07-01-2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Eug ]

JohnCoffee · Jul 1, 2002, 06:09 PM

Yo dudes....

Here some cool link for you geeks to compare. Really well done.

<a href="http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Ricoh+MP5120A+DVD%2BR W&Series=0" target="_blank">http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Ricoh+MP5120A+DVD%2BR W&Series=0</a>

<a href="http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Ricoh+MP5125A+DVD%2BR W&Series=0" target="_blank">http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Ricoh+MP5125A+DVD%2BR W&Series=0</a>

cheers

John