Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

kentuckyfried · Jun 23, 2002, 02:55 AM

Hi, does anybody have any solid benchmark proof (weblinks, articles, etc)
that shows that Macs are better to use than PC's for graphics work? The typical myth is that Macs are better for graphics, but it's a notion that's continually challenged now more than ever. I read this on another message board from a PC user:

--------------

I use Macs at school for a lot of the stuff and I don't really see the point... some people claim its more user friendly, but I keep running into the problem where you need to constantly memorize keyboard shortcuts to keep working at a decent speed... PCs also sometimes, but at least there's a right click menu sometimes.

I would find it impossible to do 3D on a Mac... they practically demand a 3 button mouse.

I think a lot of Mac users are attracted to their design but really, it doesn't do much for me. I dislike every one of their mice and I find their keyboards kind of iffy...

On the plus side, I really believe that they have remarkable level of stability and robustness that makes everything rather trouble free... the level of technical aptitude required to work a Mac is lower than a PC.

The general public perception is that Macs are superior in video editing and sound editing etc. However, is it really ?I'm not entirely sure...

Oh well...

--------------------------

hehehe....if Apple wants people to switch it's going to have to crush beliefs such as these.

There really isn't a good comparison, or that comparisons now show that PC's are faster? Grrr....I really want to start keeping an updated lists of support articles for Macs since this topic continually comes up.

Personally, I don't think I'll ever go back to PC ever again.

Codename · Jun 23, 2002, 03:11 AM

Macs are slower at graphics applications such as Photoshop. There are very few filters where the Mac holds its own against comparably priced PCs. Even a dual 1GHz G4 stands no chance against a 2.53GHz P4 or a dual Athlon system.

As for proof, you won't find any simply because no self respecting Mac user is brave enough to perform a comparisons because they know the mac will lose.

And please don't quote Barefeats. Barefeats is a joke. They've been proven to make up benchmarks in the past.

[ 06-23-2002, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Codename ]

kentuckyfried · Jun 23, 2002, 03:29 AM

That's.....kind of depressing. A friend of mine was saying the same thing...."Apple's going to go down eventually. It's such a stupid machine. Why buy it. blah blah blah blah." What you said seemed to be the majority sentiment that I could find in a google search.

How can it be justified for graphic design companies then or any of the other multimedia companies to continue supporting Macintosh units?

SirCastor · Jun 23, 2002, 03:35 AM

Video Editing on the Mac is superior for 2 reasons..

1) It started out that way. People have been using Editing on Macs for years so the natural reaction is that Macs have been doing editing better for longer. This somewhat stems from the fact that for a long time windows was literally just a graphical shell for MS DOS, and didn't have the video flexibility of the Mac.

2) The Second reason is really quite a bit simpler. Final Cut Pro. It started at version 1.0 near comparable to Premeir. That's saying a lot. At version 2 it was winning the war.. at version 3 there's nothing that can beat it. With Final Cut Pro Apple is taking on even bigger systems like Avid.

Okay, I lied. The 3rd reason is iMovie. Half a dozen reviewers have commented the same thing: There's nothing that comes close to it on the PC side.
-Aaron

Codename · Jun 23, 2002, 03:42 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kentuckyfried:

How can it be justified for graphic design companies then or any of the other multimedia companies to continue supporting Macintosh units?<hr /></blockquote>The only reason I can think of is a large preexisting investment in Mac software and hardware. You must also remember that visual artists are fastidious and might not be perceptive to beneficial change and hence have resisted.

Multimedia companies that can, are shifting to a more windows-centric environment. Just look at Adobe's recent sales numbers�for the first time in history, most of Adobe's revenues came from the Windows versions of its products. Apple can no longer tout that the majority of Adobe's revenue comes from the Mac platform. Apple's PowerMac sales also have been declining for over three years now.

What's interesting is that OS X might actually be hurting Apple. If you have to buy new software and learn a new operating system anyway, why not buy cheaper and faster hardware and switch to Wintel instead of sticking with a dieing company?

[ 06-23-2002, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Codename ]

rampant · Jun 23, 2002, 04:14 AM

I think that PC user quoted in the first post is very intelligent. You don't often hear peple like him weigh things.

iKevin · Jun 23, 2002, 08:48 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What's interesting is that OS X might actually be hurting Apple. If you have to buy new software and learn a new operating system anyway, why not buy cheaper and faster hardware and switch to Wintel instead of sticking with a dieing company? <hr /></blockquote>This is so true. I know of a 2 companies that have been hardcore Mac for as long as I can remember...But are switching to XP instead of OS X. All their programs are available (and faster) on the PC, and the conversion saved them bookoos.

I think in the longrun they have made a mistake. But I worry that this is a growing trend.

Commodus · Jun 23, 2002, 01:01 PM

I believe it is possible to get better performance out of the higher-end x86 computers in some art/video programs, but the software - not just the individual apps, but the OS as well - is often considered to be friendlier and sometimes just outright better.

People already mentioned the main products (Final Cut Pro, Photoshop, etc.), so I won't go into detail there. The important thing for a lot of artists is to have a very visually-oriented interface - and a stable one. That's OSX; Windows is getting there, but the OS is fairly dry, and even 2000 or XP aren't THAT stable. The more conservative artists can still very much thrive on OS9.

One thing I keep thinking of isn't in the graphics department, but it serves as a good example of why particular applications can be important for Mac users: Pro Tools. Many musicians have Macs, and almost all of those use Pro Tools (in OS9, mind you). It may not be the easiest program to use, but it's dependable and has been responsible for much great music (including electronic music that uses no actual instruments). The simple fact is that none of these people are willing to forsake the value of Pro Tools to save money on a computer, and the same certainly applies for a lot of visual artists and producers.

goatnet · Jun 23, 2002, 01:52 PM

I think in the longrun they have made a mistake. But I worry that this is a growing trend

Actually, they really have, due to the licensing schemes that Microsoft provides. Operating system costs (notibly, Microsoft's) are what kill you in the x86 world, if you're a business.

It's also the reason Linux and BSD are gathering market share. Licensing costs for a Microsoft server (100 user) is like 5k, while the Unixes are nill. Sure, the server cost you 3k, why pay even more for the software? <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

Superchicken · Jun 23, 2002, 01:55 PM

Why don't you wanna learn keyboard short cuts?
What kinda moron doesn't use their keyboard for graphics, you want a right click?
Press control for goodness sake!
I'm I TRIED using Fireworks at a PC user's house, I kept hitting the windows key, and that's the dumbest key ever, but anyway he had one of those gooffed up split keyboards, and..... I dono it was just stiffling!
Does anyone here who uses any graphics program regularly not remember p is for pen tool, v is for the arrow to move stuff, t is text, y is pencil, comand z is undo and what not?

Like I never even USE my pallet in Photoshop LE, becuase the keyboard is soo much faster, and this guy can't be that smart, he doesn't know enough to be able to remember keyboard shortcuts.
I'm sorry if command P is to difficult for you to print you should be shot..... with a big gun!
and in many programs you can change your shortcuts anyway.
And if the guy wants a right click he can buy a right clicking mouse!
The guy's points are dumb.
Plain and simple.

Although I must say I never thought that OS X might be that harmful for apple's adobe sales.
But at the same time the reason Adobe's products probably arn't selling as good on the Mac this year is no one wanted Photoshop 6 cause It wasn't OS X compatable. They didn't even come out with like 6.5 or anything!

I could never do graphics on a PC as fast as my iMac, don't care how fast the proccessor is, I'd just feel uncomfortable.

kentuckyfried · Jun 23, 2002, 05:43 PM

I understand that the guy's points might be kind of dumb, but those are general sentiments from the PC camp that came up.....especially speed vs. cost arguments.

To me...this whole OS X changeover is a growing pain...but hopefully it will not become the nail in the coffin for Apple.

rampant · Jun 23, 2002, 07:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kentuckyfried:
I understand that the guy's points might be kind of dumb, but those are general sentiments from the PC camp that came up.....especially speed vs. cost arguments.

To me...this whole OS X changeover is a growing pain...but hopefully it will not become the nail in the coffin for Apple.<hr /></blockquote>What do you mean by "speed vs. cost". You mean PC speed vs mac cost?

goatnet · Jun 23, 2002, 07:48 PM

this whole OS X changeover is a growing pain

Anyone remember how bad it was going from Windows 3.x to Win 95?

OS X is like going from a Ti 86 to... Well, something never done before.

Scotttheking · Jun 23, 2002, 09:33 PM

this is more of a discussion for DV people, so I'm going to send it to the multimedia forum.

Ellyl · Jun 24, 2002, 10:25 AM

Hey there,

as Apple introduced the Power Mac Dual 1GHz a german magazine tested it against a dual Pentium 4 Xeon 1,7 (or 1,8)GHz. In Photoshop the G4 crushed with twice speed. All other apps (video and 3D) where speed out by the Pentium.

Greeting

Ellyl

kentuckyfried · Jun 24, 2002, 05:32 PM

Yes, the PC speed vs. the mac speed and cost. The mentality of PC Users is "If I can get the job done without paying out $$$, why go with a mac which is TWICE as much and not that much better?" This is now being addressed somewhat with the newer iMacs but is still a prevalant problem.

My friend at Stanford...even I failed to convince him to buy an ibook, simply b/c he didn't think Outlook Express would work with the rest of the PC computers in his office. He didn't even give it a chance, he simply went for what was cheap and available. And then there was the plethora of small PC apps for environmental engineering that he had...but I'm pretty sure those would have run under VPC just fine.

There's also the myth there's major compatibility issues with files under PC's trying to be opened in Macs.

As far as I know now, that last problem is a no-issue.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rampant:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kentuckyfried:
I understand that the guy's points might be kind of dumb, but those are general sentiments from the PC camp that came up.....especially speed vs. cost arguments.

To me...this whole OS X changeover is a growing pain...but hopefully it will not become the nail in the coffin for Apple.<hr /></blockquote>What do you mean by "speed vs. cost". You mean PC speed vs mac cost?

(s)macintosh · Jun 24, 2002, 05:43 PM

I really could care less about the speed issue...

I like the image

It's like comparing a Ferrari to a freakin' Pinto. My friends come over, see my Mac and they're jealous.

"Hey, is that a Dell?"
"B!tch, please."

Eug · Jun 24, 2002, 05:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by (s)macintosh:
I really could care less about the speed issue...

I like the image

It's like comparing a Ferrari to a freakin' Pinto. My friends come over, see my Mac and they're jealous.

"Hey, is that a Dell?"
"B!tch, please."<hr /></blockquote>Err.. no.

It's like comparing a Camry to a Corvette. The Camry is well made and easy to drive, but the Corvette will blow it out of the water in raw speed.

As for the Mac OS X issue, I don't think the OS switch is hurting Apple, or at least won't hurt them in the long run.

Most PC users who know OS 9 think it's a joke, and for good reason. Its design is an anachronism in the computing world. However, PC and *nix users like OS X - it's a slick and powerful OS, with a lot of potential.

As for me, I've always wondered why people thought OS 8/9 was ergonomic and more intuitive. I always thought it was different, but I certainly never thought it was intuitive.

[ 06-24-2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Eug ]

(s)macintosh · Jun 24, 2002, 06:37 PM

It's like comparing a Camry to a Corvette. The Camry is well made and easy to drive, but the Corvette will blow it out of the water in raw speed.

We both have it wrong, maybe the Mac is like a Hummer? Slow, well built, able to hold it's own?

Windows is like a CBR900RR, fast, nimble, but crashes usually f#ck you up?

Or maybe Windows is like anal sex, it feels right when it isn't being done to you?

jock · Jun 26, 2002, 02:32 AM

I think there are a couple of issues not dealt with :
The prepress world is largly mac centric, this is a fact at least here in Australia, also macs are cheaper to run that Windows machines, check out
<a href="http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,4558411%5E15397%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html" target="_blank">http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,4558411%5E15397%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html</a>
Organisations are now interested in TCO rather than what's the cheapest box, as in the long run there in the business to make money!
Take a look at what Apple has just acquired, in terms of post production companies and you will see that they are serious about video. They may be only a 5% company on the desktop but they will eventually be the 95% company when it comes to video before this decade is out. As a windows and mac user I see the world from both sides, but I lean towards macs because they are more reliable and easier to maintain.
Just my 2cents :-)

istallion · Jun 26, 2002, 03:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The prepress world is largly mac centric, this is a fact at least here in Australia, also macs are cheaper to run that Windows machines, check out <hr /></blockquote>If it was a valid comparison, why did Apple Australia apologize to Gartner. Also not mentioned in the article, was that the study paid for was university wide, including servers. Those support and license costs are much higher.

waffffffle · Jun 26, 2002, 05:14 AM

Macs are better for video work for one reason: Final Cut Pro. It will never be available for Windows. As far as other apps like Photoshop there really isn't any great advantage. All of the major graphics applications run basically the same on both platforms. most graphics professionals buy themselves more expensive mice anyway so right-clicking is not an issue.

I have a friend who was taking a video class at school and he was telling me how they use FCP and he wouldn't believe me when I kept telling him that there's this free program called iMovie from Apple that's takes absolutely no time to learn and it comes on my iBook. He still thinks that you need to buy a $6000 PowerMac to do any sort of DV work on a Mac. However I do know that one person in his class actually went as far as to buy himself a new Ti550 because he wanted to be able to FCP work on his own. The guy also told me how the professor joked about how FCP was so cheap because you have to buy a Mac to run it. As if this is should be a surprise or something.

Other reasons why Macs are better for video work are of course iDVD and DVD Studio Pro. There really seems to be no equal to these application in the PC world. Apple now is acquiring more and more companies and their technologies so I wouldn't be surprised to see more high end video products from Apple in the future.

One thing that I find strange is that Macs are also very popular in the music industry, even though every major music application is cross platform (in a very saturated market) and Apple has no such offering in this arena. Am I the only one who would be drueling over an "iStudio" application for multitrack recording? Every application out there right now is impossible to learn and costs a fortune. Maybe if Apple puts analog audio input on every Mac then they can release this app and turn the industry on its head.

juanvaldes · Jun 26, 2002, 08:18 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by istallion:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />The prepress world is largly mac centric, this is a fact at least here in Australia, also macs are cheaper to run that Windows machines, check out <hr /></blockquote>If it was a valid comparison, why did Apple Australia apologize to Gartner. Also not mentioned in the article, was that the study paid for was university wide, including servers. Those support and license costs are much higher.<hr /></blockquote>Because it was *ONLY* for internal Apple people, not for publication.

Eug · Jun 26, 2002, 09:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by waffffffle:
I have a friend who was taking a video class at school and he was telling me how they use FCP and he wouldn't believe me when I kept telling him that there's this free program called iMovie from Apple that's takes absolutely no time to learn and it comes on my iBook. He still thinks that you need to buy a $6000 PowerMac to do any sort of DV work on a Mac. However I do know that one person in his class actually went as far as to buy himself a new Ti550 because he wanted to be able to FCP work on his own. The guy also told me how the professor joked about how FCP was so cheap because you have to buy a Mac to run it. As if this is should be a surprise or something.

Other reasons why Macs are better for video work are of course iDVD and DVD Studio Pro. There really seems to be no equal to these application in the PC world. Apple now is acquiring more and more companies and their technologies so I wouldn't be surprised to see more high end video products from Apple in the future.

One thing that I find strange is that Macs are also very popular in the music industry, even though every major music application is cross platform (in a very saturated market) and Apple has no such offering in this arena. Am I the only one who would be drueling over an "iStudio" application for multitrack recording? Every application out there right now is impossible to learn and costs a fortune. Maybe if Apple puts analog audio input on every Mac then they can release this app and turn the industry on its head.<hr /></blockquote>IMO, iMovie in its current state is not very good. It doesn't even properly import .jpgs.

As for music, Apple used to reign in this field (starting with the Apple II) and that is why I think many musicians stick to Apple, in OS 9. However, with OS X vs. PC I don't think Apple can claim it is the king of music software anymore. Furthermore, it seems to me (as a non-musician) that many of the pro PCI cards are PC-oriented.

I would like to see iStudio as well though. I just hope it's at iTunes level, because IMO iPhoto and iMovie are sorely lacking in even basic functionality.