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Mac OS 9.1 upgrade....
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fenster2
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Jan 17, 2001, 03:32 PM
 
Just another fine example of the Mac OS' downfall. Ever since OS 9, the OS has suffered greatly. Notice I didn't say Apple's downfall, just the Mac OS', and only Mac OS X can fix it, and if it doesn't.....I wait for the future.
     
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Jan 17, 2001, 04:12 PM
 
The update didn't go smoothly for you I take it? I thought it was pretty tight.
     
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Jan 17, 2001, 10:17 PM
 
What kind of complaint is that?! Sheesh. If you're going to complain about Apple or the MacOS, at least provide some details that you're upset about. Your off the cuff complaint isn't very justified.

My opinion? Mac OS 9.1 is very solid. I should know--I've been beta-testing it for over two months. Yes, Mac OS 9 had a few problems with compatibilities when it first shipped, but within a few months, most of the third-party companies had updated there software to work properly. And don't go blaming Apple for Adobe's (or Symantec's or Quark's, etc.) problems...that's simply not fair or smart. What's Apple supposed to do, hold OS updates until all the Mac software companies are ready to ship their products? That's just stupid.

As a Macintosh technician in Manhattan, I've installed Mac OS 9 on more computers than you've probably ever seen. And in very few cases have I had problems. And the problems I have had have usually been solved BY APPLYING THE APPROPRIATE UPDATES!

Now, I'm not saying that there are no outstanding incompatibilities. Of course there are but that's not Apple fault.

If you're complaining about Mac OS 9's operation then please complain away, but you certainly don't offer any such nuggets of wisdom in your post. Instead, you make some blanket statement without thinking through how your words sound. You say nothing about "downfall of the Mac OS" that justifies your comment.

If you wish to enter into a debate about the merits or lack thereof of the Mac OS (9), please hang around and offer something worthwhile instead offering illegitimate, unfounded, unbacked, juvenile statements.

The truth hurts.

Damien Barrett
Apple Solutions Expert
     
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Jan 17, 2001, 10:34 PM
 
LOL... Trust me, you call yourself an "Apple Expert" or whatnot, I am too. *cough* Apple Certified *cough*... I used to be proud of the Mac OS and what it's done for me. Being in the tech support dept of an all Mac newspaper now for 2 years, I've come across many quirky Mac stuff, but nothing like what I've experienced with the G4s and Mac OS 9. It's all about fonts fonts FONTS... the publishing industry thrives on fonts and type face. How do you think I felt when we were setting up a brand new G4, and putting all of someone's fonts on there and when we restarted, got nothing but bus errors, unimplimented traps, and virtual memory I/O errors. Yet, you can run it just fine with all of Apple's wonderful 26 fonts. Apple needs to get their heads out of their asses on this one. The Mac OS is supposedly the leading desktop publishing platform, yet with each release, they're moving away from that and increasing incompatibility problems with small things like fonts. Jeez, I installed Mac OS 9.1 today on a machine, and fonts that DID work on 9.04 did no long work on 9.1. Yet again, I had to reinstall the OS. I truley cannot remember how many times I've reinstalled OS 9 on the new G4s we have. The amount of times I have compared to older G4s and blue & white G3s running OS 8.6 it absolutely unbelievable, which are running the SAME fonts. Trust me here, I'm just in my opinion of believing it's all going downhill, at least on the OS side for Apple. We have 6100's running better in this building than the new G4s with OS 9 (and you cannot put 8.6 on a new G4 just so you know. The technology with the new motherboard's architecture simply will not allow it, even if you "trick" the installer into thinking it's installing on an older machine, it still will not boot with 8.6).
     
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Jan 17, 2001, 10:58 PM
 
Alright! Good stuff!!!!

I rescind some of what I said earlier. For instance, I know now that you're pretty knowledgeable about the Mac OS and have a clue what's going on. Your earlier unfounded comments are making more sense.

However, I want to commen on your point about fonts.

It's true that fonts are very important to the Mac desktop publishing industry. And they are vital to the industry. However, I want to talk about my experiences in servicing dozens of design houses in Manhattan, including the big five.

EVERY single one of them misuses fonts. Without exception, both the small shops and large shops are using a hodgepodge of fonts from several different font eras. They have PostScript mixed in with TrueType mixed in with Bitmap fonts. Screen fonts are missing their printer couterparts and vice versa. Each "font collection" is a mixed bag of legally purchased fonts and fonts that were "picked up by clients, or that came with client work". The "font collection" is very rarely ever scanned for damage. There is often little organization of the fonts. Multiple suitcases containining duplicate fonts exist on many machines. The shops are running little if any font management software (Suitcase, ATM Deluxe, Font Reserve). The list goes on.

This is Apple's fault? It's Apple's fault because the users of their Mac OS aren't managing their fonts correctly? Because the design shops are using fonts that are ten years old?

So you're asking Apple to create an OS that runs software (fonts, in this case, but expansive to other genres) that is a mishmash of cludge, stuff that is old, unverified, and poorly managed? You complain because they adopt the only realy advancement in font management in the last five years (OpenType). You want all the (sometimes impossible) backwards compatibility but all of the new architecture and OS X functionality? I'm not making a judgement call here on the OS's, but there *are* limits to what can be done.

I'm curious what kinds of font management you're running. At Time-Warner, for instance, I taught the Mac techs font management skills and showed them how to weed out the bad/old/unsuable fonts and replace them with stable ones that worked better with the OS they were running. And, hey, miraculously the majority of the problems they were having went away!

If you're having problems with OS 9 and your G4's, try to narrow down what's causing the problem(s). I'm more than willing to help you. My experience is that OS 9 on G4's is very stable, provided you apply updates and choose intelligently which software to install/run. [I wouldn't for instance run Expresso].

I think Apple is making the correct choices with their fonts. They've adopted OpenType (even MS has jumped on this bandwagon) and are looking down the road towards true vector imaging (Quartz, baby!).

I enjoy the debate and discussion. And yes, I am Apple Certified and yes I think that's a title to be proud of. It certainly means more than MCSE.

Oh, and what in your opinion is better than MacOS...you seem to imply that Apple has dropped the ball and that other companies have not? Enlighten me.

Damien Barrett.
     
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Jan 17, 2001, 11:52 PM
 
Aye, I very much enjoy the debate too. I truly do appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. The answer to "I'm curious what kinds of font management you're running." is that to tell you the truth, there's not much of any font management. Everytime my boss or myself begin to impliment some guidelines about fonts, someone always has to sneak in and download some stupid, incompatible font from sites like freaky fonts.com or the like. I know exactly what you're talking about how places can have such screwed up fonts (bitmap mixed with true type mixed with post script..etc etc). One thing we have a problem with is the on going war between our Artist department and our Editorial department. Artist, of course, design the ads for the newspaper. Editorial designs the feature pages and all that good stuff, and inevitably says what goes where. What I want to do is get both departments on the same page here. I want them both to have the same fonts, and be at least somewhat organized. The management here at our newspaper down right sucks. It's hard to say who has authority over what, so I am usually left with this big fat mess and scratching my head trying to figure out where to start. I'd very much like your assistance. I must admit I'm much more a technical guru than an OS guy. And I believe I can agree with you about the significance of Apple certification versus MCSE. I've got both and A+ (big woop.... i know..lol) and Apple cert landed me this job, and not the other two. Here is our current setup of applications (just so you can get an idea of our setup):

Quark XPress 3.31 to 4.1
Photoshop 4.0 to 5.5
Freehand 8
Illustrator 7 & 8
MultiAd Creator 1 ver 3.8 & MultiAd Creator 2 (errrr.. I hate that program)
NewEdit 2.2.2 (proprietary software which is known to be incompatible with OS 9, which, yes is the developer's fault. We pay 20k a year to these people and they give us incompatible software with new OS's? If it were up to me, they'd be gone in a heart beat)

For the most part, those are the major applications used most often. Shouldn't be any incompatibilities there as far as OS 9 goes, but if there is, let me know. I know the bottom line problem is fonts. Anyway, thanks for you suggestions thus far. Oh, and about your question "Oh, and what in your opinion is better than MacOS...you seem to imply that Apple has dropped the ball and that other companies have not?"... I love the Mac OS, so don't get me wrong. I've just become terribly frustrated with these problems we've had recently. As far as other companies dropping the ball with their OS', yes they certainly have, in particular Windows ME. Personally, I hate it, and use Windows 98. Seriously Windows 98 is 95% trouble free for me. OS 8.6, however, was much more reliable than that for me, I would say around 98% to even 99% trouble free. Don't get me wrong, I like Macs. This post wasn't ever intended to begin some sort of PC vs Mac war... errrr.. I've seen too many of those
     
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Jan 18, 2001, 12:16 AM
 
Okay, we agree on the font nightmares. There's not much we can do except sort, clean, delete, and manage those blasted fonts. Set up a program to scan and update the fonts regularly. Consider installing a Font Server, although personally I haven't had much luck with either Suitcase Server or Font Reserve Server. Train those designers!!! I know, I know...

Quark XPress 3.31 to 4.1
- any reason why you're not running Quark 3.32r5 and Quark 4.1.1? The latter, particularly fixes some OS 9 glitches (namely, the pallet switching slowdown). I'd consider getting rid of Quark 3, but I know...designers are tough to reason with.

Photoshop 4.0 to 5.5
- PhotoShop has an update to version 4.0.1 that's free and fixes some bugs. Same here...I'd consider getting rid of version 4 in favor of standardizing on version 5 or higher.

Freehand 8 (there's an update to version 8.0.1)

Illustrator 7 & 8
- there's an update to version 8.0.1 that fixes some issues. I'd avoid going to version 9 until Adobe can fix the MANY problems in that revision. Ugh.

MultiAd Creator 1 ver 3.8 & MultiAd Creator 2 (errrr.. I hate that program)
- I haven't seen MultiAd Creator in a long time. I really don't know if it's compatible at all with OS 9, but you can use trial and error to determine whether it's troublesome or not. For instance, if you're freezing up, is it when MA-C is open, being used? Have you ruled out damaged fonts (all progs will type 2/3 out if trying to load a damaged font).

NewEdit 2.2.2 (proprietary software which is known to be incompatible with OS 9, which, yes is the developer's fault. We pay 20k a year to these people and they give us incompatible software with new OS's? If it were up to me, they'd be gone in a heart beat)
- Ugh. No idea. Good luck!

OTHER
Apple's actually been very good about releasing many needed updates to various OS 9 components. If you're not already using Software Update to check for updates, start doing this. Particulary, there are some firmware updates that have stabilized some of the problem-children G4's on my watch. Caveat: most of Apple's updates are good to apply, but PLEASE read the Readme and wait a day or two before applying....just go in with eyes open and only apply a new update to one or two machines--not ALL of them.

Hope this helps. If you want, email me and we can continue discussion. I'm more than happy to help.

Damien
damien@mrbarrett.com
     
   
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