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You are here: MacNN Forums > Enthusiast Zone > Classic Macs and Mac OS > 9.2.1 boot failure

9.2.1 boot failure
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sra
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New Haven, CT, USA
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Oct 30, 2001, 08:42 AM
 
My B&W G3 won't boot into OS 9 from any source since I upgraded OS X Server (on another partition) from 10.0.4 to 10.1. When I try to boot from the OS 9 partition, from the OS 9.1 install disk, or the original G3 software install disk (with OS 8.6), with ro without extensions, the same thing happens: the machine starts to boot, and the OpenTransport icon appears (unless extensions are disabled)... the progress bar gets to about 20%, then the cursor changes to the rotating black and white beach ball, which turns for a while, slows down...and then is replaced by a small balck bomb, and nothing further happens.

What is really strange (apart from the inability to boot from CD) is the fact that OS 9 boots fine as Classic under OS X (server 10.1).

I've tried to eliminate all hardware issues (taking out extra memory, etc.), zapped the PRAM repeatedly, etc., but the same thing happens no matter what I do. The machine boots into OS X, which runs happily, but absolutely will not boot into OS 9. As you can tell, I can't re-install OS 9, because I can't get the install disks to boot.


I'll be glad to furnish any additional details that might be useful, but I'd be very happy to have a hint or two about where to look.

--Steve Anderson
<stephen.anderson@yale.edu>
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Oct 30, 2001, 09:20 AM
 
I can't help, but this is an OpenFirmware issue, I think... there is a command to fix it... it rings a bell, but I'm afraid I don't know specifics... sorry.
     
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SW UK
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Oct 30, 2001, 10:06 AM
 
This sounds a bit like my problem
I will crosspost what I put on MacFixit & maybe we can both get somewhere
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<<<<<
Background:
I have a G3 beige 266mHz minitower with the Revision A ROM (so I can only have 1 IDE drive. Some time ago I successfully replaced the Apple 6Gb internal IDE hard drive with a 60 Gb IBM-DTLA-307060. Following the instructions at xlr8yourmac.com, I formatted the IBM hard disk using Itech Software’s Hard Disk SpeedTools 3.2 (since updated to 3.4). That all went fine and I used one partition with MacOS 9.1 (since updated to 9.2.1) for legacy work and another with MacOS 10.0.4 (plus its own 9.2.1 for classic compatibility) for new development work.

The problem:
I just ran the MacOS 10.1 installer. It appeared to go just fine and I now seem to have a good working 10.1 system. It also runs the Classic environment OK.
The problem is that now I cannot boot back into the standalone 9.2.1 system.
If I select the 9.2.1 partition in the Startup Disk System Preference and reboot, then the boot hangs at the beginning showing the disk icon & a question mark.
If I force the system to boot from a classic MacOS installation CD (e.g. 8.5, 9.1 or 9.2.1) then the boot proceeds almost to the end & then hangs. The desktop wallpaper comes up and the menubar shows the time, but no icons appear for volumes, files or the trash.
I have a 1Gb SCSI external hard drive loaded with a 9.2.1 system but booting from this hangs in the same way as a CD boot.

If I manage to boot back into MacOS 10.1, then everything is fine – all the volumes with their data are still there. The 10.1 Disk Utility says that there is nothing wrong with any volumes.

My guess at the likely cause:
The problem is with the IBM drive. If I open the minitower and remove power to the IBM drive, then the system boots OK, either from the CD or the external hard drive.

I strongly suspect that the MacOS 10.1 upgrade has replaced the Intech disk drivers with new Apple drivers that do not work with the IBM drive (which is not Apple standard). The MacOS 9 boot system must think that the drive is OK, tries to read from it & then hangs.

While the 10.1 installation was proceeding, it did say that it was updating the drivers. This surprised me because all earlier installations of MacOS have paused and warned that they could not update the drivers because they were not apple standard.

I am now in a catch22 situation – I cannot load 9.2.1 until I have updated the disk drivers, but I cannot run Hard Disk SpeedTools to replace the drivers until I can load 9.2.1.

Dodges I have already tried:

Zapping the PRAM didn’t work.
Booting with Extensions Off didn’t work.
I tried running Hard Disk SpeedTools in the Classic environment within 10.1. It loads OK but cannot see any volumes to work on. I guess that this is a deliberate feature of the Classic environment in 10.1.
I did try opening open firmware - but it is trying to boot from the right partition. It just can't do the boot.

I even tried: Booting the system from the SCSI external with power removed from the IBM drive; loading Hard Disk SpeedTools; restoring power to the IBM drive (this is probably dangerous but I got away with it), then telling HDST to rescan its busses to get it to pick up the IBM drive. However HDST still can’t see the IBM drive. This must be a feature of the IDE controller as I am sure a SCSI drive would have become visible under these conditions.

Any ideas on how to get out of this Problem?

The only answer i can think of now is - back up all the data, remove the IBM drive & stick it in a PC, use the PC to really mash the format, put the drive back in a Mac and reformat it as if it was a new drive, then restore the data. There must be an easier way!
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
So is your main hard drive an apple supported one?
Could you have a driver problem.

I you feel brave, you could try what I did - power down & remove the power leads from the internal hard drive and then see if you can boot from CD. In my case it would boot - thus pointing the finger at the hard disk.

Let me know if you get anywhere
     
<free lunch>
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Oct 30, 2001, 10:29 AM
 
Just for completeness, even though it may not solve your problem:

After installing OS X.1 on my iMac 233, the machine started behaving oddly.

-Monitor res/sync was initially set to a non-iMac value (took a while to figure that out and to fix it)

-During boot the "Happy Mac" doesn't show anymore (screen stays dark); the screen initalizes about 20% through the boot process.

-Zapping PRAM (Command-Option-P-R) works only AFTER, the OS has loaded about 20%. The computer seems generally uninterested in Open Firmware commands. (boot from CD at startup etc.)

-OS 9.2.1 on a separate partition works and boots fine but behaves exactly like OS X during the boot process.

Now for the kicker:
-Plug in an empty (no OS on it) harddrive and the iMac behaves exactly as it should, UNTIL... OS X is installed on any partition on that drive. Normal behavior also if the OS HD is unplugged completely

It seems an OS X.1 presence on a HD prevents certain Open Firmware features from working in certain configurations. Just a wild guess, though.

Suggestion (which worked for me):

To test if OS X install is responsible:
Open your G3. unplug the ribbon cable running from the motherboard to the HD on the bottom of the machine.
restart your machine with a CD that didn't boot before. If it does, OS X on the HD is the culprit. Again, why, I don't know....

To alleviate: (for IDE type drives, SCSI is similar)
buy a new IDE HD (like a $99 20GB Maxtor at Staples) or use any other (unneeded) HD that is lying around, plug it in instead of the one with OS X Server on it.
Boot from the CD of your choice, partition the drive as needed, install system as necessary (suggestion 9.2.1)
Once the computer is running on the new drive with the new system, select it as the startup disk, then shut down the mac and plug the original drive into the other connector on the HD cable. make sure you set master/slave jumpers on the drives correctly.
startup the computer. It should boot from the freshly installed system.
And you can certainly access all the data on the other drive.

If you need both systems: install one (OS 9.2.1) on one drive, OS X on the other. If you have problems, with booting from CD etc. you should be able to simply unplug the OS X drive and be good to go.

Note: you should really run 9.2.1 under OS X.1 (Server or not).
     
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Join Date: Apr 2000
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May 21, 2003, 02:56 PM
 
I know this thread is old. But it had some information that showed a computer I'm working on right now is doing the same thing. And that I'm doing the right steps in fixing it - Having a new Hard Drive purchased for the machine.

The difference is that it's running 9.2.2. I do some consulting on the side and this machine was being restarted after a driver for a card reader was installed.

Every restart afterward had the startup screen scroll to 20%, then the black & white beachball appear (twice). It wouldn't go any further after the second time it showed up. Then after a couple minutes the cursor changes to a little black bomb ball that is lit.


Having the extensions off it would lock at 20%. The 9.2.1 Boot CD would lock 20% of the way. NUM locked most of the time at 20%. I got it to mount twice. The first time running disk doctor it found a damage resource fork and crashed. The second time everything ran fine and told me which resouce fork it was (Big Box of Art). I deleted it. Once restarted we went back to the 20% and lock mode.

Did get the extension manager to come up once on a restart but it locked after turn off all extensions.

The PRAM was zapped and the Cuda switch was also selected.

The only Boot CD that started up consistenly and worked was the Boot CD that came with the machine (9.0.4). Disk First Aid repaird mounting errors and directory errors. The system and finder were deleted and then installed in the System Folder. Tried this twice and had problems. Third time did a clean install. Restarted machine and it worked......sorta. Very Very slow, but also crashed.

Luckily the gentleman I'm consulting for has a second G4/450 mac. I pulled the trouble HD out and put it in the other machine. Copied everything over, then initialized the HD. Recopied, put back in first machine and the same problem. I was working until 11 PM last night on this.

The one kicker with all of this was that when I had the HD out of the machine and in the second one, the files copied quickly and had no problems. But I wasn't booting an OS from it.

I'm concluding that it's the HD. The second machine had it's primary HD replaced last year due to problems (but those were much different). The drive is an IBM Deskstar. I'm calling them Death Star drives.

So tonight we're going to install fresh system, firmware on the new drive. Luckily everything is backed up on the second machine AND a DLT drive using Retrospect. So getting his work back will not be hard.

It's just frustrating to do so much work and then the HD needs to be replaced. Thank goodness for backing up!!!!

"Tough Little Ship" - Riker
"LITTLE?" - Worf after having the Defiant salvaged by the Enterprise (First Contact)
     
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chico, CA and Carlsbad, CA.
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:54 PM
 
Yep, same old problem revisited. I have a few 400 mhz Graphite iMacs that are trying to run 9.2.2 and not doin' such a great job at it. Upon startup (while INITs are loading) the mouse cursor turns to a super cute little bomb icon and the system hangs. Where I'm at now is 1) Hopefully troubleshooting extensions 2) Norton. 3) Apple Hardware test.

Lemme know if anyone's seen any more of this; it's a new one to me... I've never seen this particular bomb cursor during startup issue before.

Thanks, guys.
"In Nomine Patris, Et Fili, Et Spiritus Sancti"

     
   
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