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Windoze is Inevitable...
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Dec 27, 2001, 09:54 AM
 
This is painful for me, but I'm afraid Windoze is in my future. I've been using Macs since '87 when I began doing desktop publshing on a Fat Mac 512K. I have been a loyal Mac evangelist. I've worked at AT&T WorldNet Service doing QC on their Macintosh product despite the slings and arrows of the vociferous Windows faction there. I've even done volunteer Demo Day work at Best Buy a few times. And the reason behind the demise of the Mac in my world? OS X.

Reasons:
1. IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE. With 3 kids and a mortgage, I'll never be able to afford a machine capable of using the new system. For $700 or so I can get a (blecch) peecee. But for now I'm keeping a G3-enabled creaking clone together with spit and baling wire. A Ti book or G4 is as attainable as Nirvana. I'll continue to use OS 9 until all my apps become outdated.

2. IT'S TOO ALIEN. OS X is just not the Mac I've spent the better part of 20 years learning. Now it seems that all that time was wasted. What are the odds that I'll be able to add a second hard drive or video card to a machine running OS X with the ease I can with Classic? Zilch. I am not a Unix programmer and never will be. The new OS is unapproachable for the average Mac user. If the OS goes down, it's off to the repair shop, just like the Windows geeks. If I'm going to be befuddled by an OS, might as well save money doing it.

Will someone please talk me down off the ledge and point out holes in my logic? I hate the thought of lining Gates' pockets, but I feel it's a "slow train coming." And I'm sure a lot of you will say good riddance to underprivileged fossils like me, but remember who got you where you are.

Comments, suggestions, and criticisms all accepted with equal enthusiasm.
Remember, Windows is just DOS in a clown face.
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 10:34 AM
 
To Answer your first question. Yes a Mac is a bit more Expensive but in the overall scheme or things they are less expensive. Less Hassle, Less viruses, less having to worry about Windows plug and play even though it has gotten better over the years.

Second. OS X is alien right now, not in a few years you won't be saying that. OS X is what the Mac Should have been in Many respects and isn't a Mac in others. First, the system is STABLE as hell. Mulittasking Kicks OS 9.x's butt, Speed is a little slower but is getting better with each release. Your second concern about installing a second Hard drive or video card being as easy as Classic mac OS i'll tell you it is a piece of cake. It's very Maclike in that respect. I have installed a second hard drive, 250MB internal Zip and new firewire CDRW and they all installed flawlessly, exactly how you would expect a Mac to be. With the Drive I used the Disk utility with OS X to format the Drive and it picked it right up and formatted it. The Zip Drive, I just installed it and it picked it right up, same with my CDRW.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A UNIX PROGRAMMER to use OS X. I know a little unix but rarely go into the Commandline. I like the GUI. You will hear many complaints about OS X but Apple has one Satisfied Customer here. Once OS X becomes more Mature it will be even better.
Stay the Course... If you must get a PC then do so if not then, Get the Mac and stay with someting friendly and familiar. OS X will run almost all your "Classic" Apps and when more Native stuff comes out you will find yourself using classic less and less.

My Opinion is get the Mac You will have it for many years without having it going obsolete, and if you get a New Mac you will be able to use all of the new fangled Apple stuff that comes out at least for the Next 10 years or so I'd say.
"Evil is Powerless If the Good are Unafraid." -Ronald Reagan

Apple and Intel, the dawning of a NEW era.
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 10:46 AM
 
Used G4s are available for just over your price range. As for OS X, I have never touched UNIX and OS X has been a pleasure to use. Drives mount as they should and feels very "Mac-like." I actually enjoy learning the new details of the OS. Of course the basic functionality is the same as OS 9. You can get your work done just as effieciently on X as on 9. In fact the stability of X makes it that much better.

However, if you want to go PC, well good luck! I am forced to use a PC for work and I must tell you, most days I cannot wait to get home and back on my Mac. Not a day goes by that I don't find myself pissed off at Windows for one thing or another. I guess we have been spoiled with the Mac OS/Hardware elegance.
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 10:47 AM
 
I can't say anything at all about reason 1 but as for reason 2, I guess if you really want to learn anything at all, you just need to sit down and play with it.

OS X is not an OS catered specifically for the needs of Unix or Linux users. I know some of the conventions of OS X aren't what we all are used to, and as a fairly recent Mac user (OS 8.6 - OS 9 era), I guess I am a lot luckier in the sense that I am not entrenched in the more quaint habits of Mac OS.

Still, I find X pretty similar to 9, save for perhaps the PITA permissions thingy (which also has some benefits) and spring-load folders. Also, depending on what you are doing, you might find that your favourite applications aren't OS X ready (like Photoshop). Oh and talking about applications, you will have to spend more money buying OS X-ready applications if you want to take full advantage of what OS X offers.

That said, it all boils down to what you are most comfortable and productive with. But chances are, after being a Mac user for such a long time, you won't like the general feel and atmosphere of Windows (give it a shot anyhow).

In the meantime, why don't you stick with your current Mac, make more money with it and try to get a kickass Mac (like a G5 or something) in the future when your applications are no longer compatible with OS 9 and below? Since your Mac serves you well currently, I think you ought to reconsider all your options later on. Who knows what the tech scene would be years from now.
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 02:00 PM
 
OS X is NOT the freakin Mac OS! I will never use it. It is Steve Jobs trying to f**k over all Mac users with his NeXt s**t! I will not bend over for him...
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 04:31 PM
 
Well, if ya don't like OS X, you're welcome to grab ankle for Bill.

If you think going from OS 9 to OS X is a big change, going to Windoze will be a nightmare.
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 08:06 PM
 
If you like MacOS, then OSX is a simple transition. Anyone that has complaints is trying to run an old machine, or just likes to complain. You don't need to know any Unix. I am very comfortable with Unix, but rarely (once a month?) do I use the command line.

The multitasking and stability are what we have been screaming for for years. I love it, and I have all the applications I need.

Of course there is cost of upgrading software, but you are facing that in the Windoze world with XP anyway, so it is a wash.

Don't go over to the darkside. I did, because work required it, and I am glad to be back.
If its already broken, how can I mess it up by trying to fix it?
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 09:33 PM
 
And remember that entry level iMacs aren't any more than PeeCees. You don't need a top of the line, duel processor G4 to run OS X. I've got it running beautifully on a 333Mhz iMac. The new ones will run it awesome.

As for the differences of X, just give it a couple of weeks. You won't be able to go back to 9. 9 will seem alien to you. X does things the way they should be.

And as another poster pointed out, if you think X is alien, you obviously haven't played with XP. :-(
     
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Dec 27, 2001, 10:06 PM
 
I switched from windows to mac ONLY because of OSX. I would never have used a mac if technologically antiquated OS 9 kept getting patched up.

Also, I have a completely non-tech savvy brother in-law who just got an iBook and an iPod and is using OSX without any problems. I don't think he even booted into OS9. He used to use Macs about 6 years ago, but has used windows since then. He started using OSX out of the blue and is getting along just fine with no issues.

You're not speaking for everyone, and maybe not even for the majority.
     
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Dec 28, 2001, 12:21 AM
 
I switched to Mac a couple of years ago, after some horrible experiences with Windoze boxes. If you'd consider switching platforms because of a new OS, do you think Windoze is going to remain the same forever and ever? Computers are nothing, if they're not about change. If you don't like change, why aren't you still using a Commodore 64, or better yet, chiseling characters in stone? Sorry to say this, but you're rationale doesn't hold water. OS X is certainly going to be much more stable than any version of Windoze. Even many PC pundits are singing the praises of OS X; several of them have stated that, if you were a Windoze user getting ready to buy new hardware, it would be a good time to take a look at X.
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Dec 28, 2001, 06:20 AM
 
Yes. I do say good riddance to pretentious, underprivileged fossils like you.

If you are so stubborn and unwilling to learn to cope with some superficial changes, you're certainly better off without Mac OS X. You don't have to touch the Unix goodies at the core of Mac OS X unless you want to. Good luck with Windows; I bet you'll never have to learn to re-think anything with that OS. I bet you're gonna love the .NET strategy as it creeps up on ya'.

Oh yeah, and I know damn well who got me where I am now. I did. I've been using Macs since 1985. I've used some eight Apple machines, IIRC, over the years and I know a good product when I see it and use it. Mac OS 9 is a dead-end operating system. The seventeen year old technology in there has been stretched nearly to it's limit. I like the direction Mac OS X is going. It's a fresh start on a solid, tested core that looks to have plenty of expandability. If you don't like this, then you truly are a fossil. It's time to hitch a ride to somewhere else.

So-long Mr. 1984. Perhaps that's exactly where (er... when) you belong.

The server made a boo boo. (403)
     
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Dec 28, 2001, 09:15 AM
 
The cheapest iMacs run OS X just fine nowadays. My iBook 500 could use a bit more RAM, but that's it. You don't need a PM G5 DP to run the thing.

Plus, you dont have to switch NOW. You have plenty of time. That's why Apple is taking a whole year to role out OS X. With each revision the OS becomes more and more mac-like. Plus, if you really can't stand the missing GUI features there are plenty of shareware and freeware features out there to get them back for you (Window Shade $7, Apple Menu $7, Trash on desktop $7, Application Menu FREE).

So calm down and take the gun out of your mouth.
     
-1984-  (op)
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Dec 28, 2001, 10:10 AM
 
Well, I caused quite a row, didn't I?

Thanks to all who posted to my reply, especially those who who gave me good reason to eventually try OS X if I can ever afford it. That's what I love about the Mac community.

But I do have to say I'm a bit shocked at a couple of the harsh replies. I don't think I'm pretentious or underprivileged. I work in the software development biz and have been forced to work on a PC for the last dozen years while keeping my Mac alive at home. To hear Mr. StarfleetX say "good riddance to a fossil" really stings. Perhaps he's spent too much time watching Star Trek reruns in his parents' basement.

As I said in my original post, I'll stick with my OS9 capable Mac until it croaks or until my kids graduate college, the house is paid for, and I can afford a new Mac. If I do I'll no doubt give OS X a try. Then maybe I'll have a different opinion.

In the meantime, thanks all.

Remember, Windows is just DOS in a clown face.
     
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Dec 28, 2001, 12:16 PM
 
Don't forget, with OS X you can use OS 9 as classic and boot into it as your primary system if you so choose. You can use 9 as your every day system and play with OS X to get acquainted.

One of the greatest features of the Mac OS, both 9 and X, is how easy it is to experiment with new features and new technology. I first got a Mac for web browsing and email. Little by little I started fooling around with digital photography, then digital home movies. I went from knowing zero to being able to retouch photos, publish them to a web site, sell stuff on eBay (using photos in my ads thanks to iTools) and using iMovie for home movies. Macintosh is just more inviting, not more daunting, when it comes to trying new things.
     
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Dec 28, 2001, 12:30 PM
 
Price should not be an issue. A low end iMac (which is better that any high end PeeCee) is only $799. You can run OSX on them. Also, the transition is really very simple. it's just a matter of getting used to the dock. Once you have that everything else is a cake walk. For your own good, don't downgrade to windoze.
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Dec 28, 2001, 02:46 PM
 
Originally posted by iamnotmad:
<STRONG>I switched from windows to mac ONLY because of OSX. I would never have used a mac if technologically antiquated OS 9 kept getting patched up.

Also, I have a completely non-tech savvy brother in-law who just got an iBook and an iPod and is using OSX without any problems. I don't think he even booted into OS9. He used to use Macs about 6 years ago, but has used windows since then. He started using OSX out of the blue and is getting along just fine with no issues.

You're not speaking for everyone, and maybe not even for the majority.</STRONG>
I switched to Mac for the exact same reason, OS X. I loved my PC, i ran Win2000 with no problems no slowing nothing, I was a little pissed when OS X first came out and it SUCKED, but I still enjoyed my mac. I like both, Mac and PC. (Actually the only reason I like my PC is because I can use my Pocket PC on it) Other then that I like my mac the best.

i've always been very into making the desktop look and feel the way I want it to. That can be done with a PC using programs like LiteStep and so on, but then your system becomes incredibly unstable often and hard to revert. I like OS X and OS 9 both for the ease of letting me tweak little things around without creating hell all around.

As far as Apple vs. Microsoft, I think they're both money hungry companies so stop defending either one. I do think that Microsoft makes awful programs though, Windows Media player 7 was incredibly bad, Front Page is junk, the only thing they really got going them other then Operating Systems from what i've noticed is the office suite. Most of their programs are filled with useless gadgets and features that cause more aggravation then usability. I've noticed that when apple makes a program, they generally are great.


oh yeah. I think iPod is dumb, I've just wanted to say that for awhile now.
     
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Dec 28, 2001, 02:54 PM
 
What I'd like to know is, what do you consider the base of knowledge that you've built up as a Mac owner over 15 years? You seem to assume that most of it will be lost, and that you'll have to dabble in unix.

This is the reality. If you want to, just take the Terminal application and drag it to the Trash. You will then have no ability to enter any form of Unix command. Frankly, you won't be any worse off.

And as an example, here are some of the things you might expect to lose (but don't):

Keyboard shortcuts - knowing those hidden commands and when to use Option is often what being a real Mac user is all about, and there's plenty which everybody will need. OS X by and large has all the same shortcuts - this is one of the things that makes it really 'feel' like a MacOS.

AppleScript
ColorSync
Location Manager
Airport
Quicktime
Text/Picture Clippings - nearly all of Apple's technology suite is now in OS X.

Shareware - you'd miss GraphicConverter, or Stuffit or ZipIt, or perhaps the best version of IE, or Stickies, or Sherlock, or iTunes, or Fetch, or perhaps a 'proper' Notepad (Notes for OS X is FANTASTIC!) wouldn't you? They haven't changed, and frankly PC shareware doesn't match up.

The Finder - it's still the Finder. Switch off the toolbar if you don't like it. You still don't have to hit F5 to refresh all the time, unlike Windows Explorer. It still let's you place your icons in the layout you choose, unlike the Windows Explorer. It still has all the same menu-items in the all the same places.

Managing apps - an application is just a file. Move it, it's moved. Delete it, it's gone! It's still one of the greatest strengths of the MacOS, and in OS X even more applications are just a single file to do what you want with. In Windows, maintaining your applications is a nightmare. You have to use custom installers and uninstallers and you can't move an application. So many times I've had programs which have failed to uninstall with the Windows uninstaller and then won't even reinstall because the registry is all messed up. The only way is to repair your Windows install. It's still a big joke - just not being able to arrange your applications into a nice friendly folder structure makes it feel like someone else's machine. This is a fundamental thing about Windows - it effectively doesn't want you to touch ANYTHING.

Boot from CD - you can't boot OS X from CD ('yet' I hope), but if you have a problem, boot with your OS 9 CD and get all your files, trash your preferences, whatever. It's not as easy to replace your System folder as before, but you can't do anything like this in Windows.


And the changes? Learning OS X is as simple as knowing this:

Control Panels are now System Preferences. Most have the same name, some have been rolled together, but fundamentally they'll be familiar to you. This is a big improvement, as they've cleared out some of the dross, like having 5 or 6 separate control panels for a basic dial-up internet account.

All your stuff goes in Home. Whereas Documents and Desktop were at the root of the Disk, you'll now find them in Users/&lt;username&gt;. All your preferences, screen savers, Sherlock plug-ins go in Library, where they went in System before. Apart from your Applications folder, you can treat this as the 'top' of your drive like in OS 9 and never delve any further down. Even if you do, most of the Unix stuff is hidden from the Finder anyway.

The Dock: play around with it - you'll pick it up in an hour. It's more drag & drop-friendly than the Windows start bar and every action has a visible response.

Er, that's it. It's really Mac-like. Not much different at all. Thankfully.

--

As a qualifier, I work as a technical consultant in a PC environment, a Microsoft partner in fact, 5 days a week. Much of my job is to configure production server environments with Windows 2000 Server/Advanced Server with services like ActiveDirectory, DNS, IIS (web/ftp), DFS, dynamic load balancing, SQL Server, Autonomy, even Oracle and Lotus Notes in some cases. I also do a fair bit of ASP programming as well as my share of internal support for our company (which includes about 30 PCs and 0 Macs). So I know PCs pretty damn well, but I choose to use a Mac for some very good reasons, not least of which is 'the good of mankind'. And dressing up Windows 2000 in a new skin, adding a 2 or 3 useful features and calling it XP is not going to win me over.

If I ever tried to save a few hundred pounds and switched to PC, I would miss the Mac so terribly I would've totally wasted my money. I'd end up paying twice just to get a Mac again. Deep down, you know it too.

Windoze is NOT inevitable.

Chris
     
-1984-  (op)
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Dec 28, 2001, 03:31 PM
 
Thanks, Chris, for the authoritative voice. I prefer Macs for the same reasons. You've given me much food for thought here. I hope to try OS X sometime soon.
-Scott
Remember, Windows is just DOS in a clown face.
     
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Dec 29, 2001, 12:52 PM
 
Jump. It's not all that bad. I sold my Pismo. I'm not looking back. My wallet's happy. I'll come back when OSX's interface looks like something a professional can use and not something for my neice to try and lick and when there's programs for it.

You guys boast about less virii, easier to maintain, etc.. Guess what? You're running *nix now. There are plenty of virii and security holes. Trust me, when something runs amock it's not as easy as deleting the prefs and deleting the folder and then reinstalling. OSX is sitting on top of a REAL os.
     
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Dec 29, 2001, 01:01 PM
 
Originally posted by clebin:
<STRONG>
As a qualifier, I work as a technical consultant in a PC environment, a Microsoft partner in fact, 5 days a week. Much of my job is to configure production server environments with Windows 2000 Server/Advanced Server with services like ActiveDirectory, DNS, IIS (web/ftp), DFS, dynamic load balancing, SQL Server, Autonomy, even Oracle and Lotus Notes in some cases. I also do a fair bit of ASP programming as well as my share of internal support for our company (which includes about 30 PCs and 0 Macs). So I know PCs pretty damn well, but I choose to use a Mac for some very good reasons, not least of which is 'the good of mankind'. And dressing up Windows 2000 in a new skin, adding a 2 or 3 useful features and calling it XP is not going to win me over.

If I ever tried to save a few hundred pounds and switched to PC, I would miss the Mac so terribly I would've totally wasted my money. I'd end up paying twice just to get a Mac again. Deep down, you know it too.

</STRONG>
You must work at a pretty small company. Most companies don't want the ASP developer touching IIS.

Granted, XP is pretty much the same as win2k for us developers, there is a HUGE difference for someone who walks up to the XP box. They are more productuve and can get simple tasks done quickly. Once you're done with the hand-holding you can turn off Luna and go with the good 'ol win2k interface. There are other interface improvements that make Windows more Mac-like. And now that OSX is out, I'm afraid that XP is more Mac-like than OSX.

As an aside - all MSFT has to do to kill 1/2 of Apple's 5% market share is to drop its Mac Business Unit.
     
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Dec 29, 2001, 04:21 PM
 
-1984-, I'm glad some of what I said rang true with you - I just realised what a long post it was! I hope you get to play with OS X soon, even if it's in a shop.

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>
You must work at a pretty small company. Most companies don't want the ASP developer touching IIS.

... I'm afraid that XP is more Mac-like than OSX.</STRONG>
It is a fairly small company - the UK operation is about 25 people and the nature of the work (enterprise portal solutions) means that there may only be a couple of 'techies' on a project, so it's pretty varied and pretty enjoyable too.

"XP is more Mac-like than OSX". Sorry, but I can find almost nothing to agree with in this statement. I've heard it before in these forums and as a frequenter of Windows I just can't see it.

You can discount all of the similarities I mentioned in my last post for a start, and fundamental design differences like having pull-down menus at the top of the screen. If you're referring to the amount of prompting and hold-holding XP gives new users, I would argue that it's an extension of Windows long-time need for Wizards and automation to hide the mess that lurks beneath.

The classic MacOS never gave you wizards and such like, but it remains the most user-friendly OS. Why? Because the UI was intuitive, logical and efficient. Windows was not, is not, and never will be any of those things. Every release has been an attempt to wallpaper over the damp patches.

In XP I soon tired of those over-eager little helpers, like I soon wanted to strangle that MS-Office paperclip character. Once you turn off these 'Mac-like' helpers you find out want Windows has to hide.

Chris

(EDIT: just tidying up...)

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: clebin ]
     
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Jan 3, 2002, 03:56 PM
 
-1984-

Wait till the afternoon of Monday, Jan 7, 2002 to make your decision. You may be pleasantly surprised.
     
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Jan 3, 2002, 08:47 PM
 
Why worry about X? If it won't run on your machine, then don't buy a copy. Stick with OS9- it's stable and will be very usable for the forseeable future (at least it will at my house). I have a computer only slightly newer- an original Bondi Blue iMac- and have decided to hold off on the upgrade to X that I had planned (with a seperate partition and everything). Part of it is the complaints I have heard about running X on this particular machine, part of it is the fact that I installed a PowerLogix upgrade card and don't know if X supports it and last, I think I chose the wrong HFS file structure when formatting the hard drive. It was important to be able to network with the PB 520 (running OS 8!).

And guess what? I don't feel that there is anything I can't do (other that use OmniWeb) because I don't have X on my machine, and I'm probably more productive since I don't spend any time switching back and forth between operating systems.

Just my 2 cents.

Val
     
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Jan 4, 2002, 05:48 AM
 
1984:

Please do not let individuals who need very heavy medication let you down. I'm amazed that no Moderator erased his condescending, rude, totally unwarranted thread. Maybe this is a sub-standard forum in this regard. For some reason, some OS X zealots are very angry, not all. So I apologize for the runt, starfleetX' statements. Your posting was very straight-forward, there was nothing inflammatory about your statements whatsoever. Obviously this individual must be on a trust fund from Daddie not to worry about costs.

I too feel the same as you and not being rich, I have a pretty good feeling that "classic" will always be slow in OS X; according to some programmers I spoke to at MIT, it's like trying to mate a camel with an ostrich. Not in the cards. But I can be wrong. I too am upset that it will cost so much to obtain OS X software (once again now) b/c I've returned to school and have a kid to support.

And it does feel alien to me, even though I've tried it. Oh, I can learn it but it certainly does not feel like any Mac I've ever used. For some reason, there is a sudden pressure to put down OS 9 in favor of the seemingly eternal Beta, OS X.

I understand your predicament. You certainly were not complaining; rather, you were stating simple facts that many, I mean many Mac users feel. In fact, if Steve does not permit OS 9.1x to be installed on his next computers, people will jump ship. If the company goes under, we can look forward to our kind hearted friend sailing alone in the universe b/c Apple went under. And never underestimate Steve's arrogance; it almost beats your tiny critic.

So be of good cheer and hey, it won't be the end of the world to get a system twice as fast with a refined XP operating system - if need be. No question: they are expecting people to jump ship who refuse to accept a Beta as the Golden Master. What difference: they're both ruthless corporations anyhow, far from the days one felt an obligation to "help" Apple. Nice design though, no question.

Best,

muddywaters

PS. Really, how come the Moderators didn't delete this person's thread and warn him/her never to do this again? You're on the wrong forum my friend; this one has changed.

     
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Jan 9, 2002, 04:56 AM
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by starfleetX:
[QB]Yes. I do say good riddance to pretentious, underprivileged fossils like you.


Please shut the hell up with that elitist crap. Take that type of mentality back to Bill. Cant stand these converts who now that they have seen the light, unfortunately have not changed there way of thinking, the slogan is
"Think Different" so why not do that jackass!!!!!!!!.

underprivileged??......you should be shot. And I don't care who you are or how long you've been a mac enthusiast this type of garbage should not be tolerated.


-------------

The price will come down with time they always do. But choose what's best for you its not like you can never come back and what's more you'll know both sides of the game and
have a greater basis of knowledge about the
whole PCvMac.


[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Ratm ]

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Ratm ]
     
   
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