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Many system errors on 7500/100
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Sep 2, 2000, 03:40 PM
 
I recently installed OS 9 onto a Power Mac 7500/100 with two hard disks, and it constantly gives me an unimplemented trap error message at startup. This seems to indicate that the Power Mac is incompatible with OS 9. However, the MacOS Compatability Chart (see below) insists that this is not the case.

When I reinstalled OS 9, the progress bar increased a tiny bit and just stayed there, even after 16 hours. However, the mouse pointer still moved, telling me that the Mac was not frozen.

In frustration, I reinitialized Hard Disk 1, and tried to reinstall OS 9 then. Same thing—progress bar just sticks. Finally, I copied the system folder (OS 8.1) from Hard Disk 2 to Hard Disk 1, minus any third-party extensions. Now, the Power Mac gives me bus errors and error type 10s. All these errors seem to indicate some sort of software incompatability.

What should I do? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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[This message has been edited by someone (edited 09-02-2000).]
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The Wolfe
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Sep 2, 2000, 08:12 PM
 
Are your two drives both internal, or is one an external type? How much memory do you have, and other specifics.

Yes, you machine should be fully compatable with OS 9. Are you attempting to install OS 9 on a non-Apple hard drive? If so, you may be experianceing driver issues.

Post a little bit more information.

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Eliott Wolfe
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Sep 2, 2000, 10:57 PM
 
So sorry. Here are some specifics:[list=1][*]104MB physical RAM, 114 with Vm turned on[*]PowerPC 601 processor, 100MHz[*]Both hard disks are:
non-apple, made by IBM (product ID=DPES-31080)
internal
1 GB (they're old)
HFS+ formatted[/list=a]

A problem with the hard disk drivers is an interesting idea. Could you provide me with more info, please?

Once again, any info would be greatly appreciated.

[This message has been edited by someone (edited 09-02-2000).]
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The Wolfe
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Sep 2, 2000, 11:54 PM
 
Non-Apple hard drives cause some problems for installation from time to time. It would be curious to compare however if you did not have any trouble installing 8.5 or 8.6.

Anyway, you can over ride the installer's default to update your Apple disk drivers, although if you've already erased your drives it's probably too late for that maneuver. You'll probably end up having to get a third party formatting utility to erase the disk you wish to use as your startup, and in the process install compatible third party disk drivers. After you do this of course, be sure to check the option in the installer NOT to update Apple disk drivers.

As an easy and immediate step, you could try to install OS 9 again with out updating the drivers. You can do this by checking the "options" button once you are into the final installation window.


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Eliott Wolfe
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Sep 4, 2000, 01:04 AM
 
Argh! I can't even start up now! The Mac freezes just after startup.

Anyway, when I reinitialized Hard Disk 1, I (foolishly) erased my only copy of OS 8.5.1.

It would be curious to compare however if you did not have any trouble installing 8.5 or 8.6.
I did not have any problems installing 8.5 and 8.5.1.

Anyway, you can over ride the installer's default to update your Apple disk drivers, although if you've already erased your drives it's probably too late for that maneuver.
I did copy the system folder from HD 2 to HD 1, would it still be too late?

You'll probably end up having to get a third party formatting utility to erase the disk you wish to use as your startup
What do you recommend? TechTool Pro 3 or DiskWarrior?

As an easy and immediate step, you could try to install OS 9 again
Can't start up from a CD, or from HD 2.

You can do this by checking the "options" button once you are into the final installation window
As far as I can remember, the "options" button only lets you perform a clean install.





[This message has been edited by someone (edited 09-04-2000).]
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The Wolfe
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Sep 4, 2000, 04:08 AM
 
There should be two areas where an "options" button is avilable. The second one should allow you to uncheck a box that lets you install new Apple drivers.

Yes, if you erased the hard drive, you erased the drivers too. It's a little known fact, but all HFS & HFS+ drives with the MacOS on them actually contain several partitions, two of which are used for system patches and hard disk drivers respecfully. When you erase the drive, you erase all the partitions.

About software... FWB makes the best driver software packages that I know of, although I haven't used any other programs much as of late. Unfortunatly, you'll have to fork out about $100 bucks, although it is a good package.

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Eliott Wolfe
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Sep 4, 2000, 07:13 PM
 
Hmmm. Is there a way I can copy the disk drivers from Hard Disk 2 to Hard Disk 1? Or from my Apple hard disk on my G4? Are they invisible files?

Since I didn't have any problems installing OS 8.5.1, what's wrong this time?
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The Wolfe
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Sep 5, 2000, 01:13 AM
 
there is really no way (I know of) to mount your patch and driver partitions. They are small 16k partitions that remain hidden.

You could just try installing 8.5 or 8.6 onto the drive, then updating to 9 without updating the drivers. There's a chance this might work.

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Sep 6, 2000, 08:12 PM
 
Ohmygosh!! A lot has happened. On a whim, I decided to start up from Hard Disk 1 (the problematic one). IT ACTUALLY WORKED! The Mac actually started up, drivers or no!

I remember erasing the disk with Drive Formatter, and you said that that erased the hard disk drivers! Evidently not!

Elated by this news, I tried to install OS 9 without the drivers onto Hard Disk 2.

I then went off for a walk. Five minutes after I came back, Zarvox said, "Woah. Problems were found on the file "Installer Tome." Installation cannot continue." or something like that.

What's wrong now? Please help!


[This message has been edited by someone (edited 09-06-2000).]
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Sep 7, 2000, 12:08 AM
 
I had the same installation problem a year or so back when I went to install 8.6 on my PowerBook 5300. Actually after 8.6 failed to work I tried 8.1, 8.1 and even 7.6 but they all had similar errors. I eventually had to send it to Apple for repairs because it turned out to be a hardware problem. Unfortunately, if you're getting installation tome errors, it's a hardware problem.

Try doing a low level format using Apple's Drive Setup utility. Then try to install from scratch one more time.


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Eliott Wolfe
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Sep 7, 2000, 09:56 AM
 
The DPES31080 shipped stock in my 8500. Drive Setup should see it. If not try FWB or LaCie Silverlining. If you can't start from the CD, you must boot from a drive you aren't trying to load the system on. Like your other drive or an external. If you can get the Mac started, insert the CD, go to Startup Disk control panel and select the CD. Boot and install clean.
     
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Sep 7, 2000, 11:22 AM
 
FWB 4.0x as 3.02 is NOT 9.0 compatible in many cases.

There have been a lot of updates for this OS, esp. drivers. Drive Setup from 9.0.4 (1.9.2) or later is best bet but you may want to or need to just find some new(er) drives, 1GB is small in today's world and even a 4GB is less than $100 probably from OWC.

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Sep 7, 2000, 12:57 PM
 
stupid idea thrown into the air for consideration purposes...SCSI conflicts?

I had that on a 7300 for a while and gave me all kind of hell...

Also, I wouldn't trust that compatibility chart 100%...Prior to 9.0 release, but long after 8.6 release, I found a page that provided a listing of compatible OS for 7300/180, and 8.6 was not listed. That was after 4 re-initializations not realizing why my 7300 would not work when I upgrade to 8.6. Later, a stupid friend of mine did the same thing on my 7300, and that led to 2 more initializations and was forced to hot-swap the SCSI drive on my G4 to get it recognized at all...Haven't tried OS9 on it yet, but considering the trouble I had gone through on 8.6, I won't bother with 9 unless absolutely necessary (which don't think ever will be the case. Besides 8.5 takes less RAM and is faster to boot...). However, I haven't heard incompatibility with PPCs using OS9 yet...so I dunno...

[This message has been edited by Evangellydonut (edited 09-07-2000).]
G4/450, T-bird 1.05GHz, iBook 500, iBook 233...4 different machines, 4 different OSes...(9, 2k, X.1, YDL2.2 respectively) PiA to maintain...
     
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Sep 7, 2000, 08:46 PM
 
You should stay with MacOS 8.x

I installed MacOS 9 on my 7600/120/96MB and it was a slug... I had to go back to Mac OS 8.1 (don't have 8.6).

Hope you machine runs it more smoothly than mine... If not, you did all this for nothing...
     
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Sep 7, 2000, 09:14 PM
 
Sorry for not responding, everyone, I was at school.

My conclusions are that my poor Mac is behaving very erratically. It sometimes crashes right in the Finder, it sometimes shows system error messages, it sometime freezes, it sometimes slows down so much it takes 30 minutes to show a dialog box.

(sigh) If I had TechTool Pro 3, or DiskWarrior, or a new hard disk, I wouldn't be writing this post right now.

I'm going to do a low-level format and reinstall OS 9, then see if I can get DiskWarrior and/or TechTool. If not...Mac OS 8, here I come.

Software Update, Multiple Users, it would all be so nice...

Drive Setup should see it.
Drive Setup did see it! That's how I reformatted HD 1! I'm trying to get OS 9 on any hard disk I can, make sure its stable, and work my way from there.

FWB 4.0x as 3.02 is NOT 9.0 compatible in many cases.
That's good to know. Then its either TechTool or DiskWarrior. wlonh strongly recommends the latter.

Evangellydonut, I don't think its a SCSI conflict, because when I ran 8.5.1, the Mac worked just fine.


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Sep 8, 2000, 09:46 PM
 
I have a Mac 7500 with OS 9.04 and it's been trouble-free. When I installed a new hard drive I started having all kinds of problems. When I attempted run Norton Disk Doctor, it would freeze about half way thru the operation. When I tried everything else, I initialized the drive and have had no more problems. Have you run TechTools or Disk Doctor? Have you upgraded to OS 9.04? That's supposed to be less buggy. But I'll bet your problem is somehow associated with you hard drive (s).

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Sep 9, 2000, 05:01 PM
 
I have many questions about your post, jazzlon10.

When I installed a new hard drive I started having all kinds of problems.
What version of MacOS was preinstalled on it?
I initialized the drive and have had no more problems.
When I reinitialized the disk, the problem got worse. What did you do about disk drivers?
Have you upgraded to OS 9.04? That's supposed to be less buggy.
How can I upgrade if I can't even install OS 9.0?
But I'll bet your problem is somehow associated with you hard drive (s).
I think we've all come to that conclusion, and I'm thinking of just buying a new one.

Anyway, thanks for your input. I'll see if I can get TechTools or DiskWarrior (still no luck).

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[This message has been edited by someone (edited 09-09-2000).]
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Sep 13, 2000, 12:54 AM
 
Once again, any help anyone could give would be greatly appreciated. I know this might seem hopeless, but...
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Sep 16, 2000, 03:05 AM
 
If Drive Setup formatted your drive, it is an Apple drive (or Apple OEM, anyway) and so the problem isn't the Apple driver -- in fact, the Apple driver will almost always work better than any 3rd party driver.

Almost anything you erase the drive with, including Drive Setup, will erase the existing driver and put on a new one. (I don't believe there is any utility silly enough to erase an existing driver without putting a new one on; doing so would leave the drive essentially useless.) Whatever you formatted it with before, if it was not Drive Setup, it put a non-Apple driver on, and hence could be causing problems.

If you still have problems after a low-level format *with Drive Setup, and not any other formatting utility*, then TTP or DiskWarrior won't help you. Try downloading 9.0.4 on a different machine; it comes with a newer version of Drive Setup, and hence a newer driver you can try putting on.

If that doesn't solve it, try going back to an old system. If an older system works, then you don't have a drive problem; regardless of the compatibility chart, some machines simply do not work well with certain system versions. If no system works, you have a drive or hardware problem (really impossible to tell which of the two unless you buy a new drive, or swap one in from a different machine).

One other thought... many of your problems seem to be related to the installation. Check for physical problems with the CD or CD-ROM drive.
     
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Sep 17, 2000, 03:58 PM
 
Thanks for the post, mkincaid. I bought Tech Tool Pro! Yaaay! Now all I need is DiskWarrior .


The current situation:

If I'm lucky and can get past the start-up errors and the spontaneous error type 10's, no CD will mount on the desktop. I think its just a loose cable from the CD-ROM drive to...wherever, but it is a physical problem with the CD-ROM drive, just like you said.

Anyway, for some reason, Drive Setup can update the drivers now! That's excellent news! What I think I'll do is open up the 7500's case, inspect the CD-ROM drive, then maybe run an ethernet crossover cable from my G4 to the 7500, and see if I can copy 9.0.4's Drive Setup.

If not, we may get a new iMac DV or DV+.

No, really, it's a good idea. I have a sawtooth AGP G4, and I'd get an Apple Pro Mouse and Keyboard, a new Mouse CP, iMovie 2, and a host of other things. Our network will be able to communicate at 100MBps!
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Sep 18, 2000, 12:27 AM
 
Originally posted by someone:
Thanks for the post, mkincaid. I bought Tech Tool Pro! Yaaay! Now all I need is DiskWarrior .
Cool! What do you think of TechTool Pro? Are all the screenfuls of tests useful, or are they mostly a waste of time?

The current situation:

If I'm lucky and can get past the start-up errors and the spontaneous error type 10's, no CD will mount on the desktop. I think its just a loose cable from the CD-ROM drive to...wherever, but it is a physical problem with the CD-ROM drive, just like you said.
I bet a reinstall after the physical problems with the CD-ROM are resolved will give much better results. If you can't fix the CD-ROM, try sending the System via Ethernet (not as good as booting from the System CD, but an OK solution).
Anyway, for some reason, Drive Setup can update the drivers now! That's excellent news! What I think I'll do is open up the 7500's case, inspect the CD-ROM drive, then maybe run an ethernet crossover cable from my G4 to the 7500, and see if I can copy 9.0.4's Drive Setup.
Perhaps the previous version you used was too old, or incompatible with the system version you used. Or perhaps the drive hadn't been formatted with Drive Setup, and it needed to format them itself before it could update the drivers. Glad to know it is working now, though.
(BTW, what is the "Drive Formatter" you mentioned in one message?) I assume you have found out by now that TechToolPro and DiskWarrior are not formatting utilities/drivers but are repair utilities, whereas FWB Hard Disk Toolkit is the former but not the latter (it may have some repair functions, but they wouldn't be as good as those of a program dedicated to that purpose).
If not, we may get a new iMac DV or DV+.

No, really, it's a good idea. I have a sawtooth AGP G4, and I'd get an Apple Pro Mouse and Keyboard, a new Mouse CP, iMovie 2, and a host of other things. Our network will be able to communicate at 100MBps!
If you have the cash handy, by all means I would say go for it. It will probably pay off in the saved time, money, and effort of trying to make your 7500 useful. But I wouldn't bother getting a DV -- if you want to use FireWire or DVDs you can always use your Sawtooth.

[This message has been edited by mkincaid (edited 09-18-2000).]
     
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Sep 18, 2000, 10:06 PM
 
The reason why I'm getting an iMac DV is...I like Ruby.

I dunno, for $200 more I can get a 50 MHz speed bumb, 2GB more HD space, FireWire, etc. Seems like the best value.

Anyway, TechTool Pro is actually tests a broad range of stuff. It checks finder info volume info, optimizes your disk, checks audio, video, VRAM, RAM, ROM, cache, clock....
On its first day of use, it found a software conflict, bundle bit errors, and optimized my disk and file structure. Pretty spiffy.

Though since DiskWarrior is made only for disks, I'm guessing it'll have better disk repair capabilities in it.

I only used Drive Setup to format my disks. Drive Formatter is just me being silly.

BTW, HD Toolkit was one of the apps whuch TechTool found many errors with! Even in the early days of System 7, it crashed my computer a lot. I don't like it much.

Send the System via Ethernet?! If I can't start up and stay stable for 5 minutes, how am I going to set up File Sharing, etc.??? I'm so mad at my 7500 .

My mom kepps bugging me and saying she'd rather get a PC.

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[This message has been edited by someone (edited 09-18-2000).]
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Sep 18, 2000, 10:08 PM
 
Double post, sorry.

[This message has been edited by someone (edited 09-19-2000).]
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Sep 20, 2000, 01:46 AM
 
Originally posted by someone:
The reason why I'm getting an iMac DV is...I like Ruby.
Now THIS is a good reason. The rest of all this other stuff you mention is silly in comparison to thi s one single consideration! :-)
I dunno, for $200 more I can get a 50 MHz speed bumb, 2GB more HD space, FireWire, etc. Seems like the best value.
Something you don't need is never the best value (remember Carlo and marketing messages? ) If you are just typing documents and reading email, none of those things provide much added benefit. As I said above, however, the color is a big consideration for a lot of people
Anyway, TechTool Pro is actually tests a broad range of stuff. It checks finder info volume info, optimizes your disk, checks audio, video, VRAM, RAM, ROM, cache, clock....
On its first day of use, it found a software conflict, bundle bit errors, and optimized my disk and file structure. Pretty spiffy.
Sounds cool!
Though since DiskWarrior is made only for disks, I'm guessing it'll have better disk repair capabilities in it.
It's not so much that as its approach. Patching up a broken directory file is always risky, but DiskWarrior instead looks at your data and your existing, sometimes broken, directory and makes a totally new directory, which eliminates the risk of writing over an important part of the directory in trying to fix the problem. Because of the way it works, you can preview the drive before committing to a change. So if it made some terrible mistake, you don't have a ruined drive.
I only used Drive Setup to format my disks. Drive Formatter is just me being silly.

BTW, HD Toolkit was one of the apps whuch TechTool found many errors with!
In what way did it find errors?
Even in the early days of System 7, it crashed my computer a lot. I don't like it much.
It's faded into irrelevance. Unless you need password protection or something like that for your drive, Apple drivers are always your best bet. As far as its utility features, I think it was surpassed some time ago by just about everything else.

Send the System via Ethernet?! If I can't start up and stay stable for 5 minutes, how am I going to set up File Sharing, etc.??? I'm so mad at my 7500 .
Little by little, that's how! Or install the system version that was stable on it, whatever one that was. Install 9 and 9.0.4 update from there.

My mom kepps bugging me and saying she'd rather get a PC.
Let her, on the condition that you won't help fix it for her. She will learn her lesson. Or, if that's too cruel, make your best attempt to fix it when it encounters problems, but it could well end up being a hassle or eating her data.

Or, reason with her. Ask her WHY she wants a PC and provide counterarguments.

[This message has been edited by mkincaid (edited 09-20-2000).]
     
   
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