[moowriece]

Recently, some of the new 1 Ghz iMacs have the supercool Sony DW-U10A DVD-R/DVD-RW/DVD+R/DVD+RW instead of the Pioneer drive. The Sony drive screams and is even faster than the Pioneer in CD-burning!

I don't know if the PowerMacs also have the Sony drive. Could anyone please check with the Apple Profiler and report back here?

[Eug]

Originally posted by moowriece:
Recently, some of the new 1 Ghz iMacs have the supercool Sony DW-U10A DVD-R/DVD-RW/DVD+R/DVD+RW instead of the Pioneer drive. The Sony drive screams and is even faster than the Pioneer in CD-burning!

I don't know if the PowerMacs also have the Sony drive. Could anyone please check with the Apple Profiler and report back here?

What formats do these drives actually burn? Apple has a nasty habit of removing functionality from the drives it uses.

[Back up 15 and punt]

Originally posted by Eug:
What formats do these drives actually burn? Apple has a nasty habit of removing functionality from the drives it uses.

Exactly what functionality are you referring to?

[Thinine]

The functionality isn't removed, it just isn't supported through Apple's apps. I believe Toast can handle DVD+RW burning.

[Eug]

eg.

LG GMA-4020B burns DVD-R/-RAM/-RW. However, the Apple version does not have read or write support for DVD-RAM.
Panasonic UJ-815 burns DVD-R/-RAM/-RW. However, the Apple version does not have read or write support for DVD-RAM, or and has no write support for DVD-RW.

I would suspect that if it does have a Sony dual format drive, Apple has removed support for +RW and +R burning in the BIOS.

EDIT:

The functionality isn't removed, it just isn't supported through Apple's apps. I believe Toast can handle DVD+RW burning.

Do you have confirmation of this? Toast CAN handle +RW burning, but that doesn't mean the BIOS would necessarily support it. For instance, with the UJ-815 and the GMA-4020B, Toast doesn't help. By the way, for DVD-RAM, no apps are needed for basic data support in OS X. If you get a retail DVD-RAM drive, you just drag and drop in OS X like a hard drive.

[bradoesch]

Is Apple doing this so in the future they can use a strictly DVD-R drive in say, the PowerBooks, and not have to worry about the people who complain about the loss of -RW/-RAM functionality?
It's my best guess.

Brad

[Simon]

Originally posted by Eug:
Do you have confirmation of this? Toast CAN handle +RW burning, but that doesn't mean the BIOS would necessarily support it.

First of all, Macs don't have a BIOS. It's called OpenFirmware and if it would suck only half as much as BIOS it would be a nightmare.

Secondly, what is all this talk about +R and +RW ? It's not a DVD standard and it really really sucks big time. I'd understand if people would want -R, -RW and -RAM, but +R/+RW is just ridiculous.

[littlegreenspud]

My Pioneer DVR-103 works with DVD RW disks. I can erase them with Disk Utility and Burn in iDVD.

The firmware is 1.90.

I did not know that it was not supposed to work with DVD RW disks!

[Eug]

Originally posted by littlegreenspud:
My Pioneer DVR-103 works with DVD RW disks. I can erase them with Disk Utility and Burn in iDVD.

The firmware is 1.90.

I did not know that it was not supposed to work with DVD RW disks!

Nobody said it doesn't work with DVD-RW. It's the Panasonic UJ-815 (in the PowerBooks) that does not, even though the drive itself is spec'd to support it. The drive does DVD-RAM/-R/-RW, but Apple's version only does DVD-R. I've verified myself that it does not do DVD-RW or DVD-RAM. And indeed, Apple's website makes no mention of DVD-RW support with the PowerBooks.

First of all, Macs don't have a BIOS. It's called OpenFirmware and if it would suck only half as much as BIOS it would be a nightmare.

Actually it's the firmware of the drive I'm talking about. Sorry for the typo.

Secondly, what is all this talk about +R and +RW ? It's not a DVD standard and it really really sucks big time. I'd understand if people would want -R, -RW and -RAM, but +R/+RW is just ridiculous.

If the drive supports the format, then it is relevant to the conversation.

I personally prefer DVD-R/-RAM/-RW, but that doesn't mean everything else in the world magically disappears.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Eug:
I personally prefer DVD-R/-RAM/-RW, but that doesn't mean everything else in the world magically disappears.

It's not about personal preference. It's about standards and sticking to them. DVD+RW is not a standard and it doesn't offer anything DVD-RW can't. Actually, for the sake of standards, Apple should "cripple" the firmware to disable +RW IMHO.

[Eug]

Originally posted by Simon:
It's not about personal preference. It's about standards and sticking to them. DVD+RW is not a standard and it doesn't offer anything DVD-RW can't. Actually, for the sake of standards, Apple should "cripple" the firmware to disable +RW IMHO.

Clearly the original poster is interested in +, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is not Apple's job nor is it yours to be the DVD format police. I personally have little use for +, but if I could have + functionality for free, I'd be interested too. Indeed, I'd wish Apple would be less restrictive, as then I might have DVD-RAM support in my TiBook.

[3dAnimation]

Wow! If anyone has a shot of System Profiler displaying Sony DW-U10A that would be interesting! I wonder if it is specific to a range of serial numbers, or what?

Screen shots anyone?

-GregM.

[zorn]

Here is a shot of my new iMac

[Eug]

Originally posted by zorn:

Here is a shot of my new iMac

Cool. Try burning a +R disc with it. My guess is it won't work, but it can't hurt to try.

[mrchin]

Not too new. Some original 800MHz 17" iMacs also contain Hitachi Superdrives, so having Sony's now would not be a new stray from Pioneer.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Eug:
It is not Apple's job nor is it yours to be the DVD format police.

Sorry, but you are a major grade idiot.

It's everybody's job to be format police.

If people would care more about these things we woudn't have all these web browsing problems (like "best viewed with IE" ), we wouldn't have an MS Office monoploy and we'd be getting more work done for less money.

I seriously believe that shouldn't be too difficult for you to understand, should it?

[moowriece]

PC's do have much more +R and +RW drives than -R and -RW drives. For Mac's it's all -R (and not much -RW officially). Because of this, expect a focus more on +R/+RW now in the near future (scale of economics).
Also, the DVD-Recorders e.g. by Philips are all DVD+RW.

BTW People claim the +RW and +R are much better than -R/-RW (see http://www.dvdplusrw.org/faq/faq_general.html). I don't know for myself.

[Simon]

Originally posted by moowriece:
Because of this, expect a focus more on +R/+RW now in the near future (scale of economics).
Also, the DVD-Recorders e.g. by Philips are all DVD+RW.

BTW People claim the +RW and +R are much better than -R/-RW (see http://www.dvdplusrw.org/faq/faq_general.html). I don't know for myself.

First, those "people" you quote are a group of companies trying to push the +RW thing. No wonder they rave.

Fact is the DVD consortium has specified DVD-R and DVD-RW as a standard. The +RW thing is something that got pushed by MS/Dell/Compaq a while back. Go look at DVD players people have in their living rooms, look at DVD players in computers. Many of these devices can't read or have trouble reading from +RW media. It's no wonder the -RW are more compatible - they are part of a specified standard. It's not just some hack made to work on one or two companies proprietary drives.

And if you don't believe me than take a look at a DVD+RW disc. They don't have a DVD logo on them. Guess why? Right, because they don't comply with the standards.

Why the hell do we need a format that only certain readers can deal with? That's bullshit. Why can't we stick to something that works on all players?

The people pushing +RW are doing nothing else than helping MS once again break a open-to-all standard and turn another market sector into one of their cash whores. Good luck.

[Eug]

Originally posted by moowriece:
PC's do have much more +R and +RW drives than -R and -RW drives. For Mac's it's all -R (and not much -RW officially). Because of this, expect a focus more on +R/+RW now in the near future (scale of economics).
Also, the DVD-Recorders e.g. by Philips are all DVD+RW.

BTW People claim the +RW and +R are much better than -R/-RW (see http://www.dvdplusrw.org/faq/faq_general.html). I don't know for myself.

Actually - is much more popular on the PC side. Also, Panasonic has approx. half of the standalone DVD Recorder market, with DVD-RAM/-R.

www.dvdplusrw.org is a fan site. What do you expect?

EDIT:

First, those "people" you quote are a group of companies trying to push the +RW thing. No wonder they rave.

Actually it isn't. Like MacNN, it has nothing to do with the companies who produce the equipment. See above.

The +RW thing is something that got pushed by MS/Dell/Compaq a while back. Go look at DVD players people have in their living rooms, look at DVD players in computers. Many of these devices can't read or have trouble reading from +RW media. It's no wonder the -RW are more compatible - they are part of a specified standard.

Your information is incorrect. Ironically, the main standard that MS officially supports at this time inherently with Windows is DVD-RAM. What MS has said is that they will support Mt. Rainier with Longhorn. Mt. Rainier is an optional standard that the +RW machines may support in the future. MS has never said: "We support +RW." but has said they will support the Mt. Rainier implementation of +RW should it ever come to pass.


If you want a starting point to learn more, check my sig.

[Eug]

Originally posted by Simon:
Sorry, but you are a major grade idiot.

Thanks for the constructive post. I trust the mods will find it as enlightening as I did.

[keston]

I think this thread was meant to be a reporting one, where users who got the new machines post if they have this drive or not. Why must some people stray it off topic and turn things into an argument.

[cube-dude]

Originally posted by keston:
I think this thread was meant to be a reporting one, where users who got the new machines post if they have this drive or not. Why must some people stray it off topic and turn things into an argument.

Yeah, what he said.

Play nice, guys.

[Taipan]

Originally posted by Eug:
eg.

LG GMA-4020B burns DVD-R/-RAM/-RW.

Hi!

I don't know this particular drive, but are you sure that it does write DVD-RAM? How does this work, technically? As far as I know, DVD-RAMs come in a caddy, and thus won't fit into a normal tray.

[drmcnutt]

Originally posted by Simon:
First, those "people" you quote are a group of companies trying to push the +RW thing. No wonder they rave.

Fact is the DVD consortium has specified DVD-R and DVD-RW as a standard. The +RW thing is something that got pushed by MS/Dell/Compaq a while back. Go look at DVD players people have in their living rooms, look at DVD players in computers. Many of these devices can't read or have trouble reading from +RW media. It's no wonder the -RW are more compatible - they are part of a specified standard. It's not just some hack made to work on one or two companies proprietary drives.

And if you don't believe me than take a look at a DVD+RW disc. They don't have a DVD logo on them. Guess why? Right, because they don't comply with the standards.

Why the hell do we need a format that only certain readers can deal with? That's bullshit. Why can't we stick to something that works on all players?

The people pushing +RW are doing nothing else than helping MS once again break a open-to-all standard and turn another market sector into one of their cash whores. Good luck.

MS is pushing +R? That's interesting, I though it was all these manufacturers of DVD writers. But really it's MS, what a conspiracy.

As far as the original poster's question I think it's being informed. If say in the future you had to use a DVD+R handed to you, berating the person for using non-standard formats isn't getting it done. "bah my DVD-R drive won't read this moron" won't get you very far in the real world, but moowriece will do just fine by them. A drive that supports more formats should be the one to choose if your an educated consumer.

Standards aren't set by the manufacterers they are set by the consumer and the fact that DVD+R is easier to find on shelves, writes faster than DVD-R and is very competitively priced won't help DVD-R more than the poor old betamax.

DRM

P.S. DVD-R doesn't work on all players, FYI.

[Taipan]

Hi!

I, too, hope that DVD-R will make it, because it's simply stupid to push a second system into the market when there's already an official standard. But there's two reasons why I think DVD+R will make it in the long run:
1. Microsoft supports it (have they ever just adopted an official standard?).
2. DVD-R will never make it possible to simply copy Video-DVDs for hardware reasons, while with DVD+R the copy protection is only handled by the firmware, which will sooner or later be overcome by patches.

[DaedalusDX]

Its interesting that Apple would ship a different Superdrive in the new iMacs...

I would imagine that that particular drive isn't +RW compatible though. Sony does make straight DVD-RW drives... You are all probably hoping that the drives are variants of the DRU-500A or DRU-500AX. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way. Apple likely OEMed one of Sony's 4x DVD-RW drives.

However, you can all prove me wrong by burning a DVD+R or DVD+RW.

[Eug]

Originally posted by Taipan:
Hi!

I don't know this particular drive, but are you sure that it does write DVD-RAM? How does this work, technically? As far as I know, DVD-RAMs come in a caddy, and thus won't fit into a normal tray.

A) The Apple version does not burn DVD-RAM. The normal version does.
B) DVD-RAM can come in a caddy, but it is not necessary. Indeed, the DVD-ROM drives out there which can read DVD-RAM don't even support caddies.

Microsoft supports it (have they ever just adopted an official standard?).

No they don't, at least not in its current incarnation. Read earlier in the thread. And anyways, MS already officially supports DVD-RAM, but that doesn't mean the world is going to change to DVD-RAM. So yes, Microsoft has adopted an official standard, and that is DVD-RAM.

DVD-R will never make it possible to simply copy Video-DVDs for hardware reasons, while with DVD+R the copy protection is only handled by the firmware, which will sooner or later be overcome by patches.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. For movies under 4.37 GB it doesn't matter what format you use. It's very easy to rip it, and it takes about 20 minutes to remove the Macrovision and region locking. And then you can copy it to either DVD-R or +R. However, many if not most better quality DVDs (ie. worth going through the bother of copying) won't fit on a single disc anyway. Regardless of if it's +R or DVD-R, it's pretty difficult to copy 7 GB commercial DVDs and IMO, a complete waste of time.

I would imagine that that particular drive isn't +RW compatible though. Sony does make straight DVD-RW drives... You are all probably hoping that the drives are variants of the DRU-500A or DRU-500AX. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way. Apple likely OEMed one of Sony's 4x DVD-RW drives.

That drive does in fact burn both it seems. However, like the GMA-4020B my guess is that Apple would have removed support for some of the file formats from the drive's firmware. ie. No DVD-RAM in the LG GMA-4020B, and no +RW/+R in the Sony.

[SalBaker]

Well, you know...the nice thing about standards is there are so many to choose from.

[Taipan]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. For movies under 4.37 GB it doesn't matter what format you use. It's very easy to rip it, and it takes about 20 minutes to remove the Macrovision and region locking. And then you can copy it to either DVD-R or +R. However, many if not most better quality DVDs (ie. worth going through the bother of copying) won't fit on a single disc anyway. Regardless of if it's +R or DVD-R, it's pretty difficult to copy 7 GB commercial DVDs and IMO, a complete waste of time.

I'm no expert in this, but I read about it in a magazine a few weeks ago. It was something like this: On DVDs there's a special section that contains the CSS code. This section can not be written to with DVD-R (for General, that is, not for Authoring, which nobody can afford, anyway), because it's already being "occupied" with data during the production process. So you can't create a real video DVD using these discs. The ripping process you are talking about will not lead to a standard video DVD, I assume (sorry, haven't dealt with this myself, but that's how I understand it). With DVD+R it's only the firmware that keeps one from writing the CSS data to the disc.

[Taipan]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. For movies under 4.37 GB it doesn't matter what format you use. It's very easy to rip it, and it takes about 20 minutes to remove the Macrovision and region locking. And then you can copy it to either DVD-R or +R. However, many if not most better quality DVDs (ie. worth going through the bother of copying) won't fit on a single disc anyway. Regardless of if it's +R or DVD-R, it's pretty difficult to copy 7 GB commercial DVDs and IMO, a complete waste of time.

I'm no expert in this area, but I read about it in a magazine a few weeks ago. It was something like this: On DVDs there's a special section that contains the CSS code. This section can not be written to with DVD-R (for General, that is, not for Authoring, which nobody can afford, anyway), because it's already being "occupied" with data during the production process. So you can't create a real video DVD using these discs. The ripping process you are talking about will not lead to a standard video DVD, I assume (sorry, haven't dealt with this myself, but that's how I understand it). With DVD+R it's only the firmware that keeps one from writing the CSS data to the disc. That way you might at least create a copy of a video DVD when you leave out some additional languages and bonus stuff.

[Eug]

Once you rip a DVD you simply remove CSS and Macrovision. These discs (assuming they're under 4.37 GB), can then be burned back to DVD-R (or +R). The discs play normally in DVD players. The part of the disc you're talking about is irrelevant for this purpose.

[superfula]

Originally posted by Eug:
No they don't, at least not in its current incarnation. Read earlier in the thread. And anyways, MS already officially supports DVD-RAM, but that doesn't mean the world is going to change to DVD-RAM. So yes, Microsoft has adopted an official standard, and that is DVD-RAM.

Ah you have much to learn. M$ has supported + since last March.

Read to learn more http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985787.html?tag=fd_top

[Eug]

Originally posted by superfula:
Ah you have much to learn. M$ has supported + since last March.

Read to learn more http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985787.html?tag=fd_top

Sorry my friend - did you even read my earlier post?

Basically Microsoft has said that it will support +RW's implementation of Mt. Rainier in a future OS (Longhorn). This is very different from saying something like "We fully support +RW and do not support DVD-RW."

However:

1) Longhorn is not here yet.
2) Mt. Rainier capable +RW recorders do not yet exist.

"Microsoft is happy to become a part of the DVD+RW Alliance and help promote writable DVD standards that are aligned with the Mount Rainier technology."

At this point AFAIK, we don't know if current +RW recorders will be able to support this technology via a firmware upgrade, or if people will simply have to buy new drives.

The DVD-RW camp is rumoured to be developing a similar technology, but it's not clear whether or not there will ever be a Mt. Rainier capable DVD-RW drive (if you ignore Mt. Rainier on CD-RW for the time being).

Anyways, I don't know why people keep thinking of this format difference as such a big deal. If you burn a +R disc, it will play in most DVD players. If you burn a DVD-R, it will play in most DVD players. This is not at all like a Beta vs. VHS format war at all.