[bOOzo]

I have a Quicksilver 733 Mhz (summer 2001) which is performing very badly in 3D games like Max Payne, Medal of Honor and WarCraft 3.
Up until yesterday I thought it was because of the GeForce 2 MX card, but after I just upgraded to a ATI Radeon 8500, the performance is the same. I get only around 15 fps in Max Payne for example, where I should get way higher ratings. Even if I turn down the graphics setting to the lowest, with 640x480 at 16 bit, I still only get 15 fps!
This lead me to believe that it was a problem with the system and background processes. I have reinstalled the system once, made no difference. I have tried playing in OS 9, makes no difference. I've used a completely clean user account and killed all extra user processes, still no difference... I run the latest system (10.2.6) and all the latest graphics drivers etc. I've also tried resetting the PRAM, but no luck.
That tells me that there is something wrong with the hardware. I've tried pulling out my extra RAM DIMMS, but that did not make any difference, so it's not the RAM. I don't think it's the graphics card either, since I get the same (bad) performance with a GeForce 2 MX and a Radeon 8500.
I've been in touch with Blizzard's Mac support, and they said they could run WarCraft3 just fine on a exact same setup. What we did was that we compared Apple System Profiler reports. The only difference we noticed was that his CPU firmware was different. This is what his said:
Hardware Overview:
____+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
____| |
____| Machine speed : 733 MHz |
____| Bus speed : 133 MHz |
____| Number of processors : 1 |
____| L2 cache size : 256K |
____| Machine model : Power Mac G4 (version = 2.0) |
____| Boot ROM info : 4.2.5f1 |
____| Customer serial number : XB1371A8-KSL-ff11 |
____| Sales order number : M8359LL/A |
____| |
____+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

This is what mine says:
Hardware Overview:
____+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
____| |
____| Machine speed : 733 MHz |
____| Bus speed : 133 MHz |
____| Number of processors : 1 |
____| L2 cache size : 256K |
____| Machine model : Power Mac G4 (version = 2.0) |
____| Boot ROM info : 4.2.1f2 |
____| Customer serial number : CK130HBX-L4Y-ff11 |
____| Sales order number : Not available |
____| |
____+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

He has a 0.0.4 higher version number. To my knowledge there aren't any firmware upgrades available for my computer. Is it possible that the lower Boot ROM version could be causing my performance problems?

The changes I've made compared to the original setup is that I've switched the harddrive from a 40 gig 5400 RPM to a 60 gig 7800 RPM, I've added two RAM DIMMS and I've switched the Graphics card from GeForce 2 MX to a Radeon 8500.

Is possible to contact Apple support via mail? I've posted a dicussion on their forums, but I have only got one answer. I'd like to be able to contact someone directly with a lot of knowledge about these things...

I would be so incredibly thankful if any one could help me out with this!

[bOOzo]

Sorry for making the thread so long, but I wanted to post my hardware setup info if it is any help...

---------------------------------------------------
System Profile
---------------------------------------------------
Software Overview:


System version : Mac OS X 10.2.6 (6L60)
Boot volume : Quicksilver
Kernel version : Darwin Kernel Version 6.6: Thu May 1 21:48:54 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.34.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC
User name : Max Rudberg (max)


Hardware Overview:


Machine speed : 733 MHz
Bus speed : 133 MHz
Number of processors : 1
L2 cache size : 256K
Machine model : Power Mac G4 (version = 2.0)
Boot ROM info : 4.2.1f2
Customer serial number : CK130HBX-L4Y-ff11
Sales order number : Not available


Memory Overview:
Location Type Size
DIMM0/J21 SDRAM 512 MB
DIMM1/J22 SDRAM 128 MB
DIMM2/J23 SDRAM 128 MB
DIMM3/J24 empty
Network Overview:
Built-in:


Flags : 0x8863<Up,Broadcast,b6,Running,Simplex,Multicast>
Ethernet address : 00.03.93.4C.6B.FC
IP : 1.1.1.1
Subnet Mask : 255.255.255.0
Broadcast : 1.1.1.255


Built-in:


Flags : 0x8051<Up,PpoinToPoint,Running,Multicast>
Ethernet address : 00.00.00.00.00.00
IP : 213.101.35.108--> 213.101.35.254
Subnet Mask : 255.255.255.0


---------------------------------------------------
Devices and Volumes
---------------------------------------------------
PCI:
SLOT-1(AGP):


Card Type : ATY,DDParent
Card Name : ATY,R200Parent
Card Model : ATY,R200
Vendor ID : 1002
Device ID : 514c
ROM# : 113-85710-126
Revision : 0
Card (Video) Memory : 64 MB


USB Information:
USB Bus 0:
SoundSticks:


Product ID : 30793 ($7849)
Vendor : harman/kardon
Device Speed : Full
Power (mA) : 500


USB Bus 1:
Hub in Apple Extended USB Keyboard:


Product ID : 4098 ($1002)
Vendor : Mitsumi Electric
Device Speed : Full
Power (mA) : 500


Apple Extended USB Keyboard:


Product ID : 517 ($205)
Vendor : Mitsumi Electric
Device Speed : Full
Power (mA) : 250


USB Mouse:


Product ID : 49163 ($c00b)
Vendor : Logitech
Device Speed : Low
Power (mA) : 100


FireWire Information:
FireWire (SLOT-1):
Max iPod:


Volume Size : 13.93 GB (1K = 1024) 15 GB (1K = 1000)
Ejectable : Yes
Writable : Yes


+--- FireWire Device Information -------------------------------------------------------------------+

GUID : a2700020cb112
Vendor ID : 2599
Speed : 400 Mb/sec
Unit SW Version : 10483
Disc Burning : Not supported.
Vendor Name : Apple Computer, Inc.
Product Name : iPod
Product Identification : iPod
Vendor Identification : Apple
Product Revision Level : 1.40


Bus:
Hard Drive:


Disk Size : 55.89 GB (1K = 1024) 61 GB (1K = 1000)
Unit Number : 0
ATA Device Type : ata
Device Serial : 3HR1DZES
Device Revision : 3.19
Device Model : ST360021A


Quicksilver:


Volume Size : 53.89 GB (1K = 1024) 58 GB (1K = 1000)
Ejectable : No
Writable : Yes


Mac OS 9:


Volume Size : 2 GB (1K = 1024) 2.14 GB (1K = 1000)
Ejectable : No
Writable : Yes


CD-RW:


Disc Burning : Fully supported.
Unit Number : 0
ATA Device Type : atapi
Device Serial :
Device Revision : 1.0c
Product Identification : CD-RW CRX155E
Vendor Identification : SONY

[GoGoReggieXPowars]

Too much information in that 2nd post!
I think that you're going *way* too far swapping hard drives, reinstalling the system, etc. Have you tried other games?

[CubeBoy]

Do you have all the latest drivers for your video card and the latest patches for Max Payne? That could well be the problem right their. Otherwise maybe your version of the OS is incompatible with the game (unlikely). I've got a old pc with a 733 Mhz celeron and Intel i740 video card with 8 MB of video ram, and it runs Max Payne just fine so your system should have no problems hardware-wise. Seeing that you have problems with several games I'd suggest you go to the ATI and get into contact with their tech support to work out a solution to your problems.

[bOOzo]

Max Payne is version 1.0, there is no newer version. I have all the latest drivers.

I will see if ATI's support can help me.

If anyone else has any ideas, please do tell!

[cdrgonzo20]

I have the same problem, but with a DA 733 w/ 1.2 gb ram and a GeForce 4TI. The computer performs well enough with the games to play, and probably higher than the numbers you posted due to the L3 cache and better graphics card. Having said that, Medal of Honor and Max Payne are both being choked by the cpu not the graphics cards. If I remember correctly, the issue is with the AI routines being ultra CPU intensive. Barring an upgrade to your processor, there is nothing you can do to get better frame rates.

[a2daj]

The lack of an L3 cache in those QS 733s is huge. An L3 cacheless 800 MHz PPC 7450 runs about as fast as a 500 MHz PPC 7400 in the same system for many games due to architectural changes. The L3 caches end up be the great equalizer. So a 733 QS may only be about as fast as a 466 DA for games. In apps where the L3 cache isn't as much of an issue the 733 will of course perform better.

[bOOzo]

If that is true, and this is the way the computer is supposed to perform, it's just sad.. The amount of money that has gone into this computer and it can't even play games decent.

But I don't think that's the deal, I think that there must be something hardware vise that is really slowing down 3D games. I mean, a 733 Mhz G4, 768 MB RAM and 64 MB VRAM should be able to perform more than 15 fps at 640x480 16 bit resolution..

[ReggieX]

Well, you should be in 32 bit colour anyway. Ever since the Rage128 Pro, there's no discernable performance difference on ATI cards at least.

Have you tried in the Games forum to see of it's a known issue, and/or run any other benchtests besides games?
Check http://xlr8yourmac.com/ in their Video Card Performance area to see what other are getting with a similar machine. XLR8 also has new items related to performance in their archives.

Otherwise I don't know...

[DrBoar]

Do try other games and compare the scores that you get with the one that are posted on www.xlr8yourmac.com for your setup before swapping drives and so on.

If it is a hardware problem it should show up in other games. Tryrunning the Quake III demo and see what happen. If you get a flat rate at about 70 fps in all resolutions from 320x240 to 1600x1200 everything is OK. If you do not get fps well above 50 at low res somthing is wrong with the CPU. If the card can not keep up at high resolution something with the card or drivers are wrong.

When I replaced the ATI 128 on my G4/400 with a R8500 the fps stayed the same as before at 640x480 and below (CPU limitation). But above that were the the ATI dropped of a lot the R8500 keep up the framerate regardless of resolution.

But the lack of L3 is a severe problem take a look on the reviews of gigaDesigns L3 less 800 MHz CPU. If you run our games at 1024x768 or below I think you would have been better of with a 800 MHz G4 G4 upgrade (
with L3 that is)

I hope that the price of G4 upgrades drops with the 970 arrives

[D'Espice]

Originally posted by bOOzo:
If that is true, and this is the way the computer is supposed to perform, it's just sad.. The amount of money that has gone into this computer and it can't even play games decent.

But I don't think that's the deal, I think that there must be something hardware vise that is really slowing down 3D games. I mean, a 733 Mhz G4, 768 MB RAM and 64 MB VRAM should be able to perform more than 15 fps at 640x480 16 bit resolution..

First of all: Macs are not for gaming. They may be used for gaming but it's not what they're made for. If what you wanted was a good computer for gaming, getting a PC that would have been twice to thrice as fast as your Mac would actually cost less than half of what you paid.
Second: The missing L3-cache does make a significant difference
Third: In order to be sure whether it's a software or hardware problem, you need to test much more games.

[CubeBoy]

Nah I doubt the hardwares not fast enough, not with the games he's running anyways. I've got a old Hewlett Packard PC with a 733 Mhz Celeron, 128 mb ram and antique 8MB Intel i740 Graphic Card and it runs Max Payne just fine and Medal of Honor adequately (runs smoothly in most levels). I also have a 450 Mhz G4 Cube with 128 MB ram and a far better 16mb Rage 128 Pro for doing work and it runs circles around my old pc. With the specs he's posted, he should have no problem running any of these games.

[bOOzo]

Here is test result from Quake 3:

Quake 3, "FOUR.DM_64" demo 1260 frames.

1600x1200
29,1 sec, 43,3 fps

1280x1024
28,9 sec, 43,6 fps

1152x864
28,7 sec, 43,9 fps

1024x768
28,5 sec, 44,2 fps

800x600
28,2 sec, 44,7 fps

640x480
28,6 sec, 44,1 fps


I don't know how to make tests in any other game. When I "tested" Max Payne, I ran the tutorial level and had the FPS counter up. When i walked around in the alley it was steady at 30 fps, but when I come out on the street, it drops to 15 fps. When I go down into the subway where the med kits are, it pops up to 60 fps! It's basically the same no matter what resolution I use in that game.

DrBoar - Does this mean that there is something wrong with the CPU?

Because this is what i supect. I've already tried swapping harddrives, pulling out RAMs, reinstalling the system etc. And I don't get any better FPS than with the GeForce 2 MX, so it seems like the CPU is the bottleneck, broken or not. If it is broken, is it expensive to fix it?

I really appreciate all the help, thanks guys

[D'Espice]

If you tell me where to get that file (all I have is FOUR.DM_68) then I can tell you how my Sawtooth G4/450 scored. I also need all your other settings like texture, lighting, shadows and stuff.

[bOOzo]

I don't know where I got that demo, I haven't downloaded one. I did not download one, so it must have been part of a update or something. I use version 1.3.2. You can get my Q3 config here.

I'm confident that there is nothing wrong with the Radeon 8500, I just went trough most of my games and pretty mcuh all of them run good at 1600x1200. If it does not run good, turning down the graphics settings doesn't help, so it's definitely the CPU that is not keeping up.

How does a processor upgrade work, is it still depending on the current processor? I mean, if there is something wrong with my current, would that affect a processor upgrade? How does it work with processor firmware and such?

Edit: I made a typo in the earlier post, I also have the FOUR.DM_68 demo, so please run a demo test on your comp.

[reader50]

This thread most likely belongs in the Games forum.

Try turning down the Audio settings and/or reduce the number of bots. Either should offload some CPU. If Max Payne has bot difficulty settings, you could set them all on "Stupid".

I seriously doubt that there is anything wrong with your CPU. A CPU glitch would result in random lockups or failure to boot, not low frame rates in one game.