[cube4all]

hi,

this is a topic which has been beaten to death, but everyone their own:

I currently own PB12", and I like the ez video editing with iMovie, but there are a lot of limitations for me. Also, at times it's a bit slow with the rendering. Anyway, my wife loves it for her little short clips.

Now, I am looking to upgrade to a Desktop and upgrade to FCP. I also own a PC and can always get a Pinnacle PRO or Matrox DV editing board, but I have kinda grown fond of the MAC OSX, so I'd rather opt out for a G4 or G5 system with a nice Cinema display. I am planning to buy the unit in September/October (Maybe I am asking to early, pending deliveries of G5's).

For those DV experts, which config do you advise to get, and how good is real-time editing on a kick-ass Mac against a PC with PRO editing board.

My initial view is that the G4DP allows having multiple HD's and is probably all in all cheaper? Whereas the G5 seems to win in the overall system architecture condusive to DV editing. As you can see, I am quite torn between the two.

Thanks for all your replies in advance.

[hunkhuang]

i would suggest G5 !

[OreoCookie]

AFAIK the Dual G4 isn't cheaper, is it?

No, I'd also suggest the G5. FCP is surely one of the apps that Apple will trim for the G5.

[awcopus]

Recommending the G5 is like recommending the future. It's redundant. The G5 is Apple's new platform. At some point, we're all going to own one.

The question is whether you should get a G5 "now" (as in, by mid September if you order now) or a G4 now (for delivery tomorrow). The questions are always, what do you need and what are you prepared to spend?

When I ordered my G4 duallie, I was thinking about investing approximately $1500 in a setup that would serve me well while Apple refines the G5 product design and comes out with less expensive, more expandable duallies. At this point next year, there will be refined duallie G5s running up to 3 GHz, perhaps more to my liking...and progress won't stop there. It's inevitable. The G5 enclosure is huge, the G5 processors will end up taking up less space, there will be room for more internal expandability.

I sold my 933 for $1300 (filled with RAM and a Sonnet ATA Tempo and big AV friendly HD) before it was essentially unsellable once the G5s are available for impulse purchasing. Now I'm sitting pretty with a dual 1.42 that feels quicker and more robust in the OS and the apps I use to make a living. Since this is also my first duallie, I'm quite enamored of the productivity gain that comes with that extra processor. What a thrill!

The G5 is superior to the G4 in every respects except expandability and (my opinion) aesthetics (where I think the Quicksilver beats both hands down). But the G5 is not the end of history. The G6 (or whatever) will spank the G5 across the board. Don't get preoccupied with the specs. Of course the G5's bus is incredibly fast. But how much does that speed cost? And what issues does it present you with? You have to invest in new HDs (your old ones won't work in the new enclosure), you have to consider the HD expandability issue and what your alternatives cost. Firewire800 is expensive and not as fast as SATA, let alone ATA/133. Also, there's only one Firewire800 port, and the bridge from Firewire to PCI has been notorious for degrading performance substantially. Apple still doesn't recommend Firewire for anything more demanding than DV, and even then only cautiously. Memory has to be purchased in pairs for the G5, too. How many PCI-X cards are available for the G5 right now? What do they cost? Unless you're a student, your starting price on a dual G5 today is $3000. Three thousand dollars...on top of which you add storage and RAM and this and that....

Productivity in the real world is the bottom line. The HD expandability issue was a serious one to me, for both monetary, performance, and space issues in my setup. The G4 I bought is tremendously expandable, fast enough to make FCP4 feel quite robust, even snappy, and it just felt like the right thing to do in light of my conclusion that the only G5 worth owning is a duallie. I simply refused to spend close to $4000 on a desktop Mac right now.

I'm as excited about the G5 as the next guy. I am thrilled for people whose means and needs are such that a G5 duallie fits the bill. And I can't wait to hear about their real world experience with the machine.

Whatever you do, do it for your own well-though out reasons and you won't be sorry.

My G4 duallie purchase story:
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=169391

[cube4all]

Thanx for your answers so far. Quite helpful in determining my decision, which I reveal at some point later.

One question how come is the price difference between DP1.25 and DP1.42 so high?

[awcopus]

In some cases, the difference is a result of the 1.4 having a SuperDrive and the 1.2 not having one. The 1.4 has 2 MB L3 cache per processor, double the 1.2's. Slightly larger HD, more RAM. Otherwise, the machine's are pretty close.

Honestly, my understanding is that the 1.2 is actually quite comparable to the 1.42. I guess I went with the 1.4 because I was getting such a great deal already, and I wanted the best G4 I could get, even if at the margin the difference is nominal.

Glad my feedback is helpful to you. Shipping out my Quicksilver today. Why oh why do I get emotionally attached to these machines? So hard to say goodbye.<sniffle>

[Arkham_c]

Originally posted by cube4all:
Thanx for your answers so far. Quite helpful in determining my decision, which I reveal at some point later.

One question how come is the price difference between DP1.25 and DP1.42 so high?

Supply and demand. There is limited supply of 1.42s, and increased demand. Plus Apple is still making 1.25s, so there is increased supply there.

[Commodus]

My opinion: if you're going to be getting a system with a nice big Cinema Display and want to get the most out of FCP, I'd try for a G5. FCP 4 determines how many effects can be previewed in real-time based on CPU speed; with a G5 you're going to be that much more likely to see real-time previews instead of having to wait for pre-renders.

The issue of HD expandability isn't necessarily a concern. A G5 can have up to 500 GB internally if you buy the drives from Apple; a G4 can have up to 640 GB. Either is probably just fine if you're not going to be creating so much content that you'll need the extra 140 GB before larger-capacity Serial ATA drives are available. The Serial ATA might be worth it just for the gain in access speeds (even if slight).

You'll also get a few extra perks that may help with DV editing: Firewire 800 (mainly useful for external storage right now), USB 2, as well as a couple of front-mounted ports for Firewire 400 and USB.

Geez, I sound like a sales pitch... but seriously, the G5 is probably what you'd want to go with in the long-term given what you'll be doing.

[awcopus]

Commodus, some good points, some not so good points.

FCP4 also likes dual processors, makes a big difference in its renders. And it sure does seem like a lot of FCP4 is bolded with the dual 1.42.

Of course more will be bolder with the G5. But that's not the point. Here's the problem with your sales pitch. A $2000 1.25 duallie maxed out with 2GB of RAM, with support for over a terabyte INTERNALLY with the G4 (which also has Firewire800, and then so much internal storage space. VERSUS a nearly $4000 G5 duallie configuration that has comparable/inferior access to storage and as much RAM.

Commodus, the long-term investment mindset is perilous. Today, the price-performance on G5s is wacky. You think Apple likes having a big empty space under two of its configuration's processors? I don't think so. Jobs spent a while at WWDC talking about how Panther and the G5 mobo are made from the ground-up to be dual-aware. The smarter long-term play is to wait for the arrival of cheaper G5 duallies.

Let's talk about "effective" storage space, here, because that's what matters. How much of an HD can I use before taking a performance hit or running into render problems. My guesstimate is that after 70%, you're going to run into slowdowns. Then you've got the whole "don't use your Boot drive as a Scratch drive", which many here have argued is moot with today's drives. I beg to differ. I want my assets in one place, and my startup drive ain't that place. So, applying my algorithm, with the G5 you're looking at 70% of 250GB vs. 70% of 750GB (using three WD 250s).

Even if 70%, which I pulled out of my buttocks, is wrong. The same percentage of more is more than the same percentage of less.

[Commodus]

swcopus:

One thing we need to know is the kind of budget our good friend cube4all is going to be working with. If he can get a dual-2.0 GHz G5, then he might as well. This system probably isn't going to be replaced next year, after all. Why be willing to shell out a few thousand dollars but get something that will require you to look at a replacement sooner?

We also don't know if he really does need to top out his hard drive capacity or not. He might not want to make his boot drive his scratch disk, but nor does he necessarily need 3/4 of a terabyte for what he wants to do.

And let's not forget that movie editing isn't necessarily going to be the ONLY thing he does. If you're involved in any kind of real 3D (whether it's games or pro rendering), you get a G5 and don't even question it.

[awcopus]

Xommodus:

Everything about the G5 is better than the G4. My strategy is to bide my time for a dual G5 that offers a more compelling price-performance point. By then I expect my HD expandability issues to be fully addressed. Willing to wait.

If cube4all can't afford a dual G5 (which is more than "a few" thousand dollars...it starts at $3000), would you recommend the 1.8? Maybe that's the sweet spot for him. If HD issues aren't issues for him and he's willing to forego the dual config.

Anyhoo, it's such an amazing year to be an Apple user.

[cube4all]

hi, actually my budget is about 4k (inclusive of cinema display)...and i am wondering how much difference the DP1.42 for real time makes against the 1.8 G5? probably no one can answer at this point, cuz it's not out yet. Commodus & Awcopus, you have both valid arguments and opinions.

i think i just wait until the G5 hits the market and then see how it stands in the real world. would assume that the price drop for the G4 1.42DP is even greater. at this point i think that's the best option. of course running the risk there will be no supply.

last question, anyone knows if the Matrox DV editing is worth getting? maybe I should start a new thread somewhere ?

[Nodnibs]

Here is a comparsion between the G4 & G5 a guy sent me:

http://www.barefeats.com/g5sum.html