[axlepin]

Assuming that, come December or January, there is a speed bump and some other improvements to the G5 lineup, will the RAM required by the Dual G5 change, or be the same?

Since the G5 seems pretty well thought-out, and a ground-up new design, would the Rev B designs be all *that* much better? Better to be blasting away with a Rev A machine for the intervening month or so?

A

[Vader’s Pinch of Death]

I hardly see a rev B that soon, I also don't know why they would change the RAM.

[Hydra]

If you need it now it is far better to buy one now than to wait a few months and THEN get a G5 with rev. B in February( if they actually ship before March ) Computers are always going to get better and what you buy today IS going to be replaced by something faster/better/cheaper tomorrow.

My personal philosophy is buy ASAP after a new release to get the most use out of it before some shiny new computer catches your eye The only caveat is it may be wise to see if something all new has bugs in it ( I ordered my dual G5 in June as a leap of faith in Apple - I thought the G5 is too important for Apple to have major problems). The G5 is as new as any computer from Apple is going to be in the next few years.

You might as well jump in with both feet and start enjoying it now as you're looking at around 6 month realistically from today before you see any real change. The only thing worth waiting for is if you can't afford the dual G5 you might hold out to see if Apple has more duals filter out throughout the lineup Apple claims that a 3 GHz chips will be available in one year so that could be around a 2.5 GHz chip by Feb/March and 3 GHz maybe by next Fall (Sept/ Oct).


-Jerry C.

[olePigeon]

Revision B:
2.4GHz
Same case
Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB
Panther 10.3
Bluetooh Mouse & Keyboard
April to May

(other: 1GHz iBooks, pricedrops)
(other: 1.2GHz eMac)
(other: 1.6GHz G4 PowerBook)
(other: G5 xServe)

Revision C:
3GHz
PC3700 or PC4000 RAM
Changes to case
Panther 10.3.2, improved 64-bit compatability
Dual processor for midrange and highend
Adds USB to Keyboard & Mouse for recharging and boot keys.
November to December, maybe January for Macworld 2004

(other: Fuelcell battery CTO for PowerBook and iBooks)

Revision D:
3.5GHz
PC4200 RAM
New case
Panther 10.4, 64-bit native

[CIA]

10.4 will not be 64bit native. Nor 10.5 or 10.6 or 10.7. Most certainly these releases are going to be much more 64bit aware tho. There will be 32bit CPU's in Apple machines for a long time. I don't suspect we will see a true, pure 64 bit OS for many MANY years. When it does happen, I bet we will first see it in a server version also. Most likely the first TRUE 64 bit OS will be OS11. Finally Apple has a justifiable reason to make the numeric name leap.

[soul searching]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Revision C:
3GHz
....
November to December, maybe January for Macworld 2004

Steve has said 3GHz by next summer.

I think we'll see rev.b be introduced in January 2004 and perhaps ship by early February. 2.4-2.6GHz at the high-end model would be my guess.

[Catfish_Man]

At some point in the relatively near future, a switch to DDRII will be required. Yes, DDR has reached 500MHz, but it's not an official standard, and seems unlikely to go all that much further. Also, PCs are switching to DDRII relatively soon.


note: "relatively soon" is on the order of 12 months, possibly as high as 24.

[DrBoar]

The main "flaw" with the current G5 is that the top of the line dual 2.0 is the one with most bang for the bucks. So unless you are going for that one it seems like a good idea to wait for the dual to migrate downwards. The next last rev of the G4 tower dual 867/1000/1250 were all dual and I hope that the G5 will get there again. If the G5 is at 3 GHz next summer then a dual 2 GHz is the low range

[KidRed]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Revision B:
2.4GHz
Same case
Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB
Panther 10.3
Bluetooh Mouse & Keyboard
April to May

(other: 1GHz iBooks, pricedrops)
(other: 1.2GHz eMac)
(other: 1.6GHz G4 PowerBook)
(other: G5 xServe)

Revision C:
3GHz
PC3700 or PC4000 RAM
Changes to case
Panther 10.3.2, improved 64-bit compatability
Dual processor for midrange and highend
Adds USB to Keyboard & Mouse for recharging and boot keys.
November to December, maybe January for Macworld 2004

(other: Fuelcell battery CTO for PowerBook and iBooks)

Revision D:
3.5GHz
PC4200 RAM
New case
Panther 10.4, 64-bit native

You jump to a 400mhz increase then to a whopping 600mhz increase then to a 500 mhz increase. I think it will be more steady.

Rev B
2.0ghz, 2.4ghz & 2.6ghz.

Rev C
2.6ghz, 2.8ghz & 3.0ghz

and so on, I think by 200mhz increases.

[AngryAngel]

Originally posted by DrBoar:
The next last rev of the G4 tower dual 867/1000/1250 were all dual and I hope that the G5 will get there again.

So do I.

The last revision G4 tower (before the current post-G5 OS9 booting FW800-lacking machines) were 1Ghz single, 1.25 dual and 1.42 dual.

[Commodus]

I posted this in an earlier thread, but I'm thinking that Apple will want to cut straight down the middle between the initial G5 launch and the 3 GHz target for the summer, so the lineup would look something like this:

* 2.0 GHz single
* 2.2 GHz dual
* 2.5 GHz dual

Apple can probably manage that for early 2004 (February or March), since IBM already had 2.5 GHz prototypes a few months ago. This would probably make a lot of people happy: the clock speed of the top-end model becomes the base speed (albeit single-processor), while you're no longer forced to get a $3000 system for dual processors.

They'd probably want to increase the memory bandwidth all around, too: DDR400 on the single 2.0 model and DDR466 for the higher-end models.

[HodyOne]

Originally posted by axlepin:
Assuming that, come December or January, there is a speed bump and some other improvements to the G5 lineup, will the RAM required by the Dual G5 change, or be the same?

Since the G5 seems pretty well thought-out, and a ground-up new design, would the Rev B designs be all *that* much better? Better to be blasting away with a Rev A machine for the intervening month or so?

A

I don't see a lot of improvement for rev B G5's. All of those who have said wait for the rev b's are wrong. The only problem I've noticed with the rev A is a small bit of squeaking that occurs. So waiting for rev b's is unlikely to give you anything more than normal (ie more memory, bigger hard drives, a processor bump). All good things, but you won't have the computer for many months to come.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by KidRed:
You jump to a 400mhz increase then to a whopping 600mhz increase then to a 500 mhz increase. I think it will be more steady.

Rev B
2.0ghz, 2.4ghz & 2.6ghz.

Rev C
2.6ghz, 2.8ghz & 3.0ghz

and so on, I think by 200mhz increases.

I did that because the initial bump is going to be smaller as the new fabrication process is refined and touched up. Then when everything is in full gear and running nicely, we'll see some bigger speed boosts. Especially by the time we have the 3GHz IBM will be moving to the .90 micron process. That means more dies per wafer which in turn means higher yield of faster cores. Then the speed bumps will start to slow down again as the better dies become harder to find and are produced in lower yields.

Then after that, IBM updates the CPU a little, better cooling, or maybe a smaller process, then we get faster chips all over again.

[Merkn]

I know someone who's sister's boyfriend works at IBM on the g5's, and he says they already have decent yields at 2.7 and 3ghz, and that was back in early august...

[I Have Questions]

Originally posted by Merkn:
I know someone who's sister's boyfriend works at IBM on the g5's, and he says they already have decent yields at 2.7 and 3ghz, and that was back in early august...

My mailman's uncle said they are at 4GHz.

[Super Glitcher]

yeah... and my dog barfed up top secret benchmarks that said they were at 5ghz

[Super Glitcher]

I don't see Apple releasing the 3ghz model until at least august next year. Simply from a marketing approach, they have a comparatively smaller market and have to bleed the technology out slowly to sell more units otherwise they will lose value.

They have always done this *slowwww* - I am really hoping to be proven wrong though!

In my case I can get away with waiting for rev.B.. I don't mind too much as I am still jazzed with my pb (which was like 600 dollars more than the dual2G5 with ram and extras!! !!) and I'd prefer all the software updates and bugs get ironed out.. . and the 1.10 patch for diablo II get released

I REALLY want the g5 powerbook... *sigh* portable is prime

[Rosyna]

You do realize that 3.0Ghz machines will be announced at next year's WWDC, right? Jobs said it himself in Paris.

[I Me Mine]

And probably available just in time for Christmas...

[Commodus]

Rosyna:

He didn't say that recently. At the Paris expo Jobs said that Apple would hit that speed "by the end of summer" next year. As such, an August announcement/release is entirely possible.

Keep in mind that this was a joint Apple/IBM declaration, and that IBM is known for making conservative estimates that work: for example, they said they'd have 1.8 GHz PowerPC 970 chips in the second half of 2003, and were able to deliver 2 GHz in that frame and on the early 0.13-micron process. I wouldn't be surprised if IBM was able to deliver something slightly above the target (such as 3.2 GHz).

[DeathToWindows]

January: 1.8/2.4/3.0-Dual

[olePigeon]

Oops. Hehe. That's .09 micron not .90.

[Hydra]

I have a feeling from now on that whatever IBM has as the highest frequency chip, Apple will hold back a little and leave a little room for safety. For too long Apple had to go crazy trying to get what little Motorola had available for the top of the line G4. If IBM is able to produce a 3.2 GHz chip by next fall I have a feeling that Apple still may only use a 3.0 to keep a nice cushion and have the ability to maintain regular speed bump intervals in the future, IBM affords them this luxury they never had with Motorola. When IBM starts to actually roll out their own PPC970 blade servers we may get a better idea of what IBM is capaable of producing.

-Jerry C.

[h00ligan]

They can't ship a bluetooth mouse and keyboard because it wouldn't be active during boot. No way to zap the pram, eject the cd, get into open firmware, change boot partitions, start form a cd, etc etc etc

if i am wrong on that then maybe, but you still have to mate the devices at first boot, which would require a wired solution.

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Revision B:
2.4GHz
Same case
Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB
Panther 10.3
Bluetooh Mouse & Keyboard
April to May

(other: 1GHz iBooks, pricedrops)
(other: 1.2GHz eMac)
(other: 1.6GHz G4 PowerBook)
(other: G5 xServe)

Revision C:
3GHz
PC3700 or PC4000 RAM
Changes to case
Panther 10.3.2, improved 64-bit compatability
Dual processor for midrange and highend
Adds USB to Keyboard & Mouse for recharging and boot keys.
November to December, maybe January for Macworld 2004

(other: Fuelcell battery CTO for PowerBook and iBooks)

Revision D:
3.5GHz
PC4200 RAM
New case
Panther 10.4, 64-bit native

[Detrius]

Originally posted by h00ligan:
They can't ship a bluetooth mouse and keyboard because it wouldn't be active during boot. No way to zap the pram, eject the cd, get into open firmware, change boot partitions, start form a cd, etc etc etc

if i am wrong on that then maybe, but you still have to mate the devices at first boot, which would require a wired solution.

That would not *require* a wired solution. It would only require support for bluetooth in the ROM on the motherboard. There is already support there for USB (keyboard, mouse, booting), FireWire (booting), and Ethernet (netboot). Why can't they add Bluetooth as well?

[Commodus]

Detrius:

You need to pair the keyboard and mouse to the machine, though. Theoretically the factory could do this, but I don't know if it's genuinely feasible or not to do so.

The main obstacle is probably that they don't know whether you're going to have a USB mouse/keyboard sitting around for a new system or not. No one would like buying a $3000 G5 only to find out that they need to buy something else just to use their system!

DeathToWindows:

That's just not going to happen. 3 GHz at the start of the year is far too optimistic (the prediction for 3 GHz was summer 2004), and having a 600 MHz gap between models when the current gap is 200 MHz is too extreme. I'm still personally convinced that Apple will stop at 2.5 GHz (give or take 100 MHz) for the first revision.

[harefoot]

Originally posted by Commodus:
Detrius:

You need to pair the keyboard and mouse to the machine, though. Theoretically the factory could do this, but I don't know if it's genuinely feasible or not to do so.
...

They could do what other bluetooth solutions do, provide a manual discovery-link button on the computer and the keyboard. With some available BT mouses, you simply push a button on the mouse to make it discoverable. If the computer had a button to discover it, they would be easy to pair. (Firmware support obviously required)

[slider]

I would like to see, at the very least, the top and middle models go Dual, in the first revision, in the second revison I think I would like to see them all go dual, but I know some people feel that a single processor option shoud remain. Personally I would like to see Apple attempt a cube type of machine again, but with a PCI slot and a single G5 processor. But I think we will have the original G5 until early spring next year.

[Eug]

I think the low and mid should stay single, but at a lower price (say $100 less, with the dual staying the same price).

Not many people really need duals, at least when the single CPU speeds are already fast. (Single 1.25 GHz G4s are not fast, but single 1.8 G5s are.)

DDR500 in summer 2004? Not a chance. I wonder if they'll ever actually appear in Macs actually. My guess is that they'll stick with DDR400 until DDRII comes along.

My guess is the Jan announcement will be quite a similar G5 (with DDR400), but simply with faster CPUs.

[Hydra]

Originally posted by Eug:

Not many people really need duals, at least when the single CPU speeds are already fast.

I agree but the overwhelming demand for the dual G5 2.0 shows that people want them. Apple has spent so much time indoctrinating us Mac users with the idea that duals are the way to go, most people still want them even though they may not need them. Remember Apple is in the business (true with most other businesses as well) of giving people what they want not what they need. If most people only bought what they needed 95% of the computer using population would still be using 500MHz PIII's and 400MHz G3's

I think if they had two dual models (2.5 -2.2) and a single model with 2.0 Ghz all using the same motherboard would make people pretty happy for a rev. B.

-Jerry C.

[Angus_D]

Given how well OS X takes advantage of multiple CPUs, it makes sense to have them.

[Eug]

Originally posted by Hydra:
I agree but the overwhelming demand for the dual G5 2.0 shows that people want them. Apple has spent so much time indoctrinating us Mac users with the idea that duals are the way to go, most people still want them even though they may not need them. Remember Apple is in the business (true with most other businesses as well) of giving people what they want not what they need. If most people only bought what they needed 95% of the computer using population would still be using 500MHz PIII's and 400MHz G3's

I think if they had two dual models (2.5 -2.2) and a single model with 2.0 Ghz all using the same motherboard would make people pretty happy for a rev. B.

-Jerry C.

I didn't say remove the duals. For the well-indoctrinated, there is the top-of-the-line dual.

OTOH, if Apple were to drop the price of the singles, they'd get even more Power Mac sales. ie. I think it'd increase the marketshare, whereas the duals simply cater to users already on dual Power Macs.

[Super Glitcher]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
January: 1.8/2.4/3.0-Dual

yeah right

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Detrius:
That would not *require* a wired solution. It would only require support for bluetooth in the ROM on the motherboard. There is already support there for USB (keyboard, mouse, booting), FireWire (booting), and Ethernet (netboot). Why can't they add Bluetooth as well?

They probably will woon.

I can't wait until Power over Ethernet becomes mainstream. I bet Apple will be the first to get rid of their power cable.

[Eug]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
They probably will woon.

I can't wait until Power over Ethernet becomes mainstream. I bet Apple will be the first to get rid of their power cable.

Power over Ethernet is not for powering a dual G5. It's for powering lower power devices like an access point or something.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Eug:
Power over Ethernet is not for powering a dual G5. It's for powering lower power devices like an access point or something.

Right now, yes. Later on it'll power your TV, lamp, even your refrigerator. As more and more items become "ethernized" and networked for "smart homes."

PoE HDs are the coolest.

[HodyOne]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Right now, yes. Later on it'll power your TV, lamp, even your refrigerator. As more and more items become "ethernized" and networked for "smart homes."

PoE HDs are the coolest.

Ethernet cables don't have anywhere near the current carrying capacity to run any of the items you mention. Furthermore, AFAIK power over ethernet is DC. AC current would probably send any data on the adjacent wires into a frenzy.

[michaelb]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
I can't wait until Power over Ethernet becomes mainstream. I bet Apple will be the first to get rid of their power cable.

----------
What the hell does Dell do? They don’t design their own motherboards,
don’t design their own processors, and don’t design their own operating
system. Apple has a Grammy and an Emmy to show for their hard work,
what does Dell have?

I can't wait until Power Over AirPort becomes an option... "Come near my Mac, dude, and you're toast!"

I hate to say it but in response to your sig: a helluva lot more sales and 10x the market cap.

The consumer market just doesn't reward innovators nearly as much as those that give them what they want, cheap. Sad but true. We can help by educating...

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by HodyOne:
Ethernet cables don't have anywhere near the current carrying capacity to run any of the items you mention. Furthermore, AFAIK power over ethernet is DC. AC current would probably send any data on the adjacent wires into a frenzy.

You're correct on both parts, but as I stated, that's just for now. My dad is a fellowman at Cisco and I've been reading up a lot of PoE, he actually works on the security for networked devices (funny story later on, btw.) One of the things that Cisco is working on at this moment is how to have both AC and DC currents running over one ethernet cable while maintaining data integrity. What you just stated is the exact problem they're working on.

Ok, funny story about security and encryption. A lot of people have been waiting for pirate digital cable boxes but the encryption has turned out to be a pain in the ass. It's been like 5 years and no pirated digital cable boxes have come out. I was telling my dad about it a while back and he chuckled. He could literally write some software in about 20 minutes to decode a digital cable signal because he and his team were the ones who wrote the security protocols in the first place.

[Loopydude]

I would be mighty happy to see the whole line go dual. Why not sell all the speeds currently available in dual configs for a small drop in price, and expand the upper end with maybe the 2.4GHz dual processor model for a bit more?

As for me, a dual 1.8GHz model for around $2200 with a combo drive would be a no-brainer purchase. Even the 1.6 GHz is plenty fast for avg. person's needs...imagine a daul 1.6 GHz as the hihg-end iMac...mmmmm

[bradoesch]

Originally posted by CIA:
10.4 will not be 64bit native. Nor 10.5 or 10.6 or 10.7. Most certainly these releases are going to be much more 64bit aware tho. There will be 32bit CPU's in Apple machines for a long time. I don't suspect we will see a true, pure 64 bit OS for many MANY years. When it does happen, I bet we will first see it in a server version also. Most likely the first TRUE 64 bit OS will be OS11. Finally Apple has a justifiable reason to make the numeric name leap.

Kinda like how the Mac OS wasn't fully PPC code until 8.5 or so?

[CIA]

I don't even think 9.2.2 was fully PPC native. I think there was legacy 68K code in every OS prior to X. Not counting "Classic" Is there any in X? Wouldn't suprise me.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by CIA:
Most likely the first TRUE 64 bit OS will be OS11.

Now will it be Mac OS XI or Mac OS X, v 11?

[trublue]

It will be called.....drum roll please.......

Mac OS 64

.

[Big Mac]

The low-end G5 has to come down in price by at least $200. The midrange will go dual. Here's my forecast:

February-March Special Event: 1.8, DP2.2, DP2.4

Seybold (August): 2.0, DP2.4, DP2.8

SJ promised that Apple would have 3GHz parts but not necessarily that they would be shipping by next summer. So we'll get 2.8GHz in August - that's just my conservative prediction. Remember, too, that the 970 is said to top out at 2.8; maybe IBM's being conservative with that estimate, but it could be true.

On a slightly different subject, has anyone else noticed that PC manufacturers are ramping down the MHz? I thought the Wintel world would be blazing on past 3.5GHz by now, but if you look at the ads from Dell and HP, you'll see their prebuilt rigs configured to only as high as 2.8GHz. I couldn't find a listing for a 3GHz PIV, which is music to my ears. It just goes to show you that these things are cyclical. Intel had its run and now it's IBM's time to shine!

[ebuddy]

I'll tell ya what, it's quite possible the J14 RAM bay in my dual G5 is bad. I may have to return it for repair!!! I'm hot! Wait for more posts like these before you drop a sophisticated $3K to experience such elementary problems!!!

[t_hah]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
I'll tell ya what, it's quite possible the J14 RAM bay in my dual G5 is bad. I may have to return it for repair!!! I'm hot! Wait for more posts like these before you drop a sophisticated $3K to experience such elementary problems!!!

Get over it.
When I bought my Lombard PB after they came out, I had the logic board failing after a week of use. I called Apple and they said that it would take about two weeks for them to get it back to me. So I shipped out my computer, after two days (!!!!) it was back.
That is what I call a great service.
In general new computers can brake down in the first month or so, and this is true for all computers. That is when everythign starts working for a longer time, and some problems can come out.

You just received one of these problematic machines, but there are tons of people out there without any problems.

Did you notice that only ones with problems post online?

Anyhow...for my prediction...

after reading all you guys' depressing numbers, here is mine:

6GHz PPC601 promised by Motorola...will not ship of course.
2.4 GHz G5s in February.



t

[Zoom]

Originally posted by Hydra:
My personal philosophy is buy ASAP after a new release to get the most use out of it before some shiny new computer catches your eye

Actually, this strategy says 'wait till the next rev', unless you're assuming that won't happen in Jan/Feb. The G5 was introduced last summer, so we're closer to the next rev than we are to the last (shipping dates notwithstanding).

My general philosophy is the same as yours, but I see two opportunities when new revs come out: if the new one is obviously better, grab it immediately; if not, grab an older rev with a big discount! The bottom line, though, is: know what you want and be ready to buy when the next rev comes.

I'm waiting, personally. My highly-upgraded G4/400 is hanging in there and I'm waiting for two things to happen before I buy:
- the ability to add a second internal optical drive
- dual CPUs for under $2000

I hate that they limit you to one optical drive. The have a combo drive, but it sucks as a CDR! 16x? Come on. Therefore, I need a second drive, and damn it, I want it in the same box!

And I really, really want dual CPU action. I've even considered getting an old dual G4 and postponing my G5 upgrade for a year or more. I can get dual drives and dual CPUs with that right now, all for $1700 (or less).

Here are some features I'd like to see in the next G5 rev:
- shorter case (this one is a little too tall)
- AirPort built in
- Bluetooth built in
- cheaper entry level model

I've been asking for built-in wireless stuff for a long time now. My basic argument is this:
- it's cheaper to mass produce the chip sets without the housings and connectors needed when they're optional - just solder the damn stuff into the motherboard!
- having wireless standard across the board opens up TONS of cool opportunities for new and existing iApps!
- Apple could be the leader once again in making the cool stuff standard, raising the bar for others.

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
What the hell does Dell do? They don’t design their own motherboards,
don’t design their own processors, and don’t design their own operating
system. Apple has a Grammy and an Emmy to show for their hard work,
what does Dell have?
[/B]

Off-topic, but your sig is interesting!

Dell is a perfectly optimized business model. Apple is an innovator.

My opinion of course!

[Hydra]

Originally posted by Zoom:
Actually, this strategy says 'wait till the next rev', unless you're assuming that won't happen in Jan/Feb. The G5 was introduced last summer, so we're closer to the next rev than we are to the last (shipping dates notwithstanding).

I posted that 2 weeks ago (about 2 weeks afer I got my dual G5)and every week you get down the road the more sense it makes to wait. With Panther out next week I wouldn't consider and new Mac for at least another week. At this point your almost in November and Jan/Feb starts looking close. That's why I like to be an early adopter, each week that goes by makes it harder to make a decision w/o looking ahead. I ordered in June, got it 9/18 I think and now I have had it a month and had no regrets. Not once did I think about a rev.B (well to be honest, the 3.0 GHz by next year claim has me jealous already but that's more of a rev. C envy )

I think people waiting for a new case revision in Jan/Feb are in for a rude awakening. Apple has spent way too much money and effort designing that case for the future. Those cooling fans and heatsinks are more for a future 4.0 GHz G5 than today's 2.0 GHz max. My G5's barely get warm under load. Thats case would only be changed if sales were a disaster. Why would they bother to change it if they already sell as many as they can make?

ebuddy-

The only certainty in computer hardware is that there WILL BE FAULTY examples here and there no matter how expensive or complicated. The only thing that really matters is how the company deals with resloving the issue. If you get a bad G5 and Apple refuses to do something about it then post about your experience.


-Jerry C.