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LightWaver-67 · Jan 16, 2004, 05:34 PM

So... apparently, it's been in the works for a while that VT was going to upgrade once the new G5 XServes became available... and they are TRADING THE G5s IN...!!!! Wonder what they are gonna do with all of them... Apple yard-sale...? Speacial blow-out deals...? Refurb units...?

Anyone know what happens in such an instance...?

SouthPaW1227 · Jan 16, 2004, 05:40 PM

I'm assuming they'll become refubs. on Apple's site, however, each of them has 4GB of *non-ECC* RAM that'll be rendered useless in the new ECC-RAM using XServes, and I highly dout Apple would sell refurbs. w/ 4GB of RAM, so I guess we'll see...

tooki · Jan 16, 2004, 08:38 PM

It seems to me highly unlikely that VT would ditch them. The cost of rebuilding the whole system (never mind interrupting in-progress calculations) would probably far outweigh the space savings.

Remember that they had to have racks custom made to hold and cool 1100 machines... that'd be a lot of wasted money.

tooki

bimmerphile · Jan 16, 2004, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by tooki:
It seems to me highly unlikely that VT would ditch them. The cost of rebuilding the whole system (never mind interrupting in-progress calculations) would probably far outweigh the space savings.

Remember that they had to have racks custom made to hold and cool 1100 machines... that'd be a lot of wasted money.

tooki

tooki-

It's confirmed they're switching to XServe G5's. Check their website.

Misanthrope · Jan 17, 2004, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by bimmerphile:
tooki-

It's confirmed they're switching to XServe G5's. Check their website.

I looked, and didn't see anything on the matter.

link plz

LightWaver-67 · Jan 17, 2004, 02:04 PM

Well... I'm too lazy to go track-down the articles I've seen... but the most proof is in the keynote Stev Jobs just gave... he mentions the fact that they (VT) are trading-in all the G5 PoerMacs for G5 XServes and that it was planned well-before the release. They must have been under NDA and quite possibly involved in the revamping of the XServe.

Dunno.

Angus_D · Jan 17, 2004, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
Well... I'm too lazy to go track-down the articles I've seen... but the most proof is in the keynote Stev Jobs just gave... he mentions the fact that they (VT) are trading-in all the G5 PoerMacs for G5 XServes and that it was planned well-before the release.

I'm pretty sure he didn't mention it at all. He did mention that they would have been using Xserves if they'd been out but were forced to use the desktops because of their extremely tight schedule.

There has been no official announcement, but it's been the rumour on campus for a month or so now and ThinkSecret recently "confirmed" it.

djohnson · Jan 17, 2004, 02:52 PM

Maybe they will be part of the refurb lot once Apple releases the updated machines? I can also see VT adding more Xserves or Xnodes since they take up less room... How cool would that be? 2000 Xnodes

kpne1home · Jan 17, 2004, 03:12 PM

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/virginiatech2.html

LightWaver-67 · Jan 17, 2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by kpne1home:
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/virginiatech2.html

Thanks... I'm glad someone else saw this... and more importantly, remembered WHERE they saw it. I knew I wasn't imagining it.

CIA · Jan 17, 2004, 07:07 PM

Actually, if I recall during the keynote, he made a little jab at them about the lack of Xserves when they built it. Guess the joke was on us as I'm sure he knew in advance about the trade-up they were going to take. I'm willing to bet VT was under NDA about the new Xserves. Still, VT knew they were coming, (heck, we all did) but when was probably blurry even to them untill this winter. You don't build something like this without being pretty tight with your tech supplier. This is as big a PR coup for Apple as it is science boom to VT.

LightWaver-67 · Jan 18, 2004, 07:18 AM

Here are the lines that indicate they were working together before the release:

"One insider said that this has been Virginia Tech's plan for several weeks, and that project officials met with representatives from Apple's Xserve G5 team shortly before Christmas to work out the details. At the meeting, Apple and Virginia Tech officials reportedly discussed concerns about how well the Infiniband card and software would work with the new Xserves, concerns which our source characterized as "taken care of.""

-Q- · Jan 18, 2004, 09:28 AM

Remind me again where Apple or VT signed ThinkSecret as their official spokes-website?

At this point, it's still conjecture. With the money already spent on the cluster, I'd doubt that VT would then spend additional time and money replacing the system. Maybe if/when a G5 fails it may be replaced with a G5 Xserve, but I doubt things are going to be replaced this soon after getting the system completed.

LightWaver-67 · Jan 18, 2004, 10:11 AM

Good point... I sometimes confuse speculation articles as factual news articles, since most rumors sites contain BOTH, facts & specualtion.

tooki · Jan 18, 2004, 01:36 PM

Don't even mention those goddamned rumor sites to me. They just invent whatever they feel like, and even if they ever did have real info, I don't want to try and play russian roulette at what's real and what's not. So i just assume everything on those sites to be fictitious (which accounts for the vast majority of what they publish) and go on my merry way.

If anyone has a REAL VT or Apple press release announcing a conversion, post it here.

tooki

tooki · Jan 18, 2004, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
Well... I'm too lazy to go track-down the articles I've seen... but the most proof is in the keynote Stev Jobs just gave... he mentions the fact that they (VT) are trading-in all the G5 PoerMacs for G5 XServes and that it was planned well-before the release. They must have been under NDA and quite possibly involved in the revamping of the XServe.

Didja actually watch said keynote? I did. SJ didn't mention anything about that, other than that "What they probably wished they could have used, of course, was Xserves, since they're a little more compact. But Xserves only had G4's in them. Until today."

That's all he said. (I just re-watched the video and took dictation from it -- not from memory.)

tooki

LightWaver-67 · Jan 18, 2004, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by tooki:
Didja actually watch said keynote?

Yeah... I did...

But somehow, my brain combined multiple sources of info into a bastardized memory of what happened. I somehow convinced myself that I remembered SJ talking about it... but it was actually that story that I read.

My bad.

rambo47 · Jan 18, 2004, 05:52 PM

VT might simply not need to upgrade their cluster. Right now they have the 3rd fastest supercomputer in the world. Do they need to have the fastest, or is what they have adaquate for thier needs?

If they do upgrade to XServes perhaps they will simply sell their present cluster in it's entirety to some one who needs a supercomputer. After all, this one is proven already, plus they've diagrammed how to put it together, cool it, etc. It would make a mighty cost-effective solution for anyone looking for their own cluster.

LightWaver-67 · Jan 18, 2004, 07:49 PM

I'd love a big-ass network cluster if it meant that I could use Radiosity and volumetric lighting more often in my renders.

Heheheh...

Hmmmm Real-Time Radiosity... I wonder how far off we are from that. It seems like just yesterday that we (I) never thoght I'd see real-time polygonal rendering of 3D worlds. Look how far THAT'S come.

Oooops... I got off-topic. Umm... Would LOVE to buy a used G5 from that cluster, just for posterity's sake.

Leonis · Jan 18, 2004, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
I'd love a big-ass network cluster if it meant that I could use Radiosity and volumetric lighting more often in my renders.

Heheheh...

Hmmmm Real-Time Radiosity... I wonder how far off we are from that. It seems like just yesterday that we (I) never thoght I'd see real-time polygonal rendering of 3D worlds. Look how far THAT'S come.

Oooops... I got off-topic. Umm... Would LOVE to buy a used G5 from that cluster, just for posterity's sake.

What about a "Used by VT" engrave on the side of the tower?

Graymalkin · Jan 20, 2004, 04:21 AM

It seems entirely unlikely VT is about to toss out their current G5s in favor of a bunch of 1U systems with practically the same specs. They've invested about $4,700 in each one of their cluster nodes in memory and network interconnects on top of the machines themselves. They would have to invest about the same amount for equivilent Xnodes. They would at best get 60% of the current towers' value by selling or reassigning them to other departments. Which means they would need another $2m to install the Xnodes.

Besides the basic cost in dollars there's also a cost in time. The system was designed to give a ton of power and bandwidth to its users. Taking portions of the system down all the time to upgrade them would be a waste of effort. A terascale computer that only has enough servicible nodes to do gigascale computations isn't worth much.

If they expand the system, which is very likely, I would fully expect them to pick up Xnodes. The cluster is designed to be scalable so expanding it with the more space efficient systems would be beneficial. Tearing the whole cluster down to save some office space and spend extra money would not be very beneficial.

Eriamjh · 07:11 AM

The XServe move would be to take 2nd place. First place is a long way off.

Ah, found some info:
Earth Simulator: 35 teraflops, $350-400 million, unknown # of procs, 1st place
HP's ASCI Q: 13.8 terflops, cost unknown, 8000 alpha processors, 2nd place.
VT G5: 10.28 teraflops, $5.2 million, 2200 processors, third place

Not bad.

biscuit · 11:04 AM

Apple might sell refurbs with 4 GB RAM, you never know. Plus they can push the "own a piece of Mac History" angle. Perhaps they can split it up into 2, 3 or 4 clusters and sell them on in that way?

But the thing about downtime is interesting; sometimes I need reminding that these things are built to do real calculations and not just get the best rankings!

They will want to upgrade sometime though and that costs money. Have we considered the fact that the performance/publicity that Big Mac has generated might draw more cash their way? Apple is reported to have $4bn-odd in the bank; wouldn't getting the 2nd fastest supercomputer in the world be a good way to spend a little bit of that?

biscuit

edit: Just thought of something else. Why doesn't Steve just buy the whole lot off them and keep it in the basement?

tooki · Jan 21, 2004, 02:21 AM

Let This Rumor Die.

tooki

BoulderDash · Jan 23, 2004, 09:46 AM

Wow, the power of persuasion. I also could swear that I "remembered" SJ saying that VT was going to swap them out. So, I just sat through the re-play of the MSF Keynote (specifically the Xserve G5 portion) and can say there is no mention of it. See/hear for yourselves if you like:

Macworld San Francisco

Rumor sites = the new mind-benders.
BD

timster · Jan 23, 2004, 03:33 PM

I wouldn't be suprised if VT did go and swap out the G5s for the Xserves. A few factors to consider.

1. Xserves will use less power and output less heat. One only has to look at the power upgrades and cooling system they built for the supercomputer to see this. So the less power/cooling each unit requires, VT saves more. Not to mention the space savings they'll realize when they consolidate 1100 towers into 1100 Xserves.

2. Who said they had to replace the entire thing in one fell swoop? If you look at the stuff that's been written about the software that they wrote for the cluster, Deja Vu, it was built to provide fail-over support for the tasks. I.e. if a G5 node failed, its task would be reassigned to a different node.

So, what they could do is set up an new rack, put the xserves in, bring them online, get them integrated w/ the cluster, then pull an equal amount of G5 towers off the cluster. Repeat and rinse as necesary. Their current jobs wouldn't need to be interrupted at all.

It may happen, or it may not happen, but there are many good reasons to do a swap to Xserves, and it wouldn't be difficult, and woudln't affect the uptime of the cluster as a whole.

Nebrie · Jan 24, 2004, 01:49 PM

Are the powermacs already gone? The Apple store seems to have an endless supply of dirt-cheap used Powermac dual 2.0s these days.

macintologist · Jan 24, 2004, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by tooki:
Don't even mention those goddamned rumor sites to me. They just invent whatever they feel like, and even if they ever did have real info, I don't want to try and play russian roulette at what's real and what's not. So i just assume everything on those sites to be fictitious (which accounts for the vast majority of what they publish) and go on my merry way.

If anyone has a REAL VT or Apple press release announcing a conversion, post it here.

tooki

Not ThinkSecret. Pretty much 99% of what ThinikSecret reports turns out to be true. If ThinkSecret says there will be 2.4ghz DP g5s on Feb 3..then it is pretty much fact. They never report anything unless they know for absolute sure it will happen. They predicted the keynote dead on.

l008com · Jan 27, 2004, 02:55 AM

Ha ha. Tooki, any new comments?

Simon · Jan 27, 2004, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by tooki:
Let This Rumor Die.

The rumor did actually die since it's now official. Tooki, any comments?

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040126/tech_...h_apple_1.html

GeneShifter · Jan 27, 2004, 08:06 AM

I really do not know what was so unbelievable about this anyway. Maybe tooki...ah, who cares.

Now that it is official, I do wonder what will happen to those used G5 towers.

-Q- · Jan 27, 2004, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by GeneShifter:
Now that it is official, I do wonder what will happen to those used G5 towers.

According to the press release, the project director says they're "working on getting them very good homes." I know I'd be glad to take a couple off his hands.

tooki · Jan 27, 2004, 11:31 AM

Nothing's impossible.

I still find it surprising that they'd do that, and I stand by my staunch refusal to believe rumor sites.

tooki

Olorin · Jan 27, 2004, 02:00 PM

It really doesn't make any sense for them to switch the xserves at this point. They are the same speed and cost more. VT has already payed for the Powermacs to be set up why redo it if everything is fine? It would be a waste of money. The only way I can see it is if they wanted to go for second place and add more comps. X-Serves taking up less space could make this possible maybe?...

-Q- · Jan 27, 2004, 02:25 PM

Well, the press release said that by swapping out the towers for the xserves, it would reduce the size of the cluster by a factor of three - so maybe they'll make enough on selling the used G5s, plus the cost savings they'll realize in lesser power and cooling requirements to make it economically feasible (or irrefusable!) to make the swap.

tooki · Jan 27, 2004, 02:41 PM

I suppose it's also conceivable that Apple DID make a secret deal with them to give them a good price on buying 2200+ Macs, in total...

tooki

Graymalkin · Jan 27, 2004, 06:38 PM

Well damn. I thought the rumor was just dumb, now I'm not sure where the dumbosity lies, with me or the fact VT is scrapping a working super computer for a new one. The move makes sense and makes me wonder if this was the plan from the beginning. It seems as if VT went with the towers so they could get on the official Top500 roster for 2003 for publicity purposes. Anyone who even half-heartedly follows computer and tech news has heard about the Big Mac. I bet many thousands of high school seniors have added VT to their application lists because the Big Mac is showing the school's got a serious computer program now.

fizzlemynizzle · Jan 27, 2004, 07:23 PM

It makes a lot of sense for VT to switch. You're talking the difference between homogenized desktops and server class machines. The Xserves will take up less physical space as well as lower power and cooling requirements. It will save VT money in the long run as well as allow them to fit more servers into the same amount of space.. presumably so they can take a shot at #2 on the top 100 list.

I would also assume that the Xserves have hardware monitoring (temp, hard drive status, etc) not offered in desktop G5 machines. Apple's obviously cut them a deal where they can afford to do it, too. Apple's probably more than happy to deal with them considering the incredible amount of good PR it's brought them. There have been attempts at Pentium based supercomputers and they haven't been nearly as successful as the VT project.

l008com · Jan 27, 2004, 07:30 PM

I thought I read VT was paying full price?

LightWaver-67 · Jan 27, 2004, 07:40 PM

Hey... for the record, I wasn't trying to prove a point I just wanted to know... and am STILL curious:

What are they gonna do with all 'dem G5 towers now...?

l008com · Jan 27, 2004, 07:47 PM

I'm not supposed to say anything but....

they're giving them all to me. I'm going to build my own cluster, and i'm going to call it "The Return of the Mac[k]"

LightWaver-67 · Jan 27, 2004, 07:55 PM

HEH! Small world!

Turns out I KNOW someone that goes to VT and WORKED on setting-up the cluster. If I had known before today, I would have asked HIM what he knew about it. I can't wait to see him again to ask him about it.

Sheesh.

As a matter of fact... I've been told that he can be spotted in the VT Video as one of the students configuring the G5 towers pre-installation.

kinda neat.

drHo · Jan 28, 2004, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
Hey... for the record, I wasn't trying to prove a point I just wanted to know... and am STILL curious:

What are they gonna do with all 'dem G5 towers now...?

lol....i emailed the proffesor in charged of the cluster and asked him what are they are going to do with the 1100 Dual g5's, . He said they were "found nice homes"

so much for that!...i bet each system could be put on ebay and sold for tons of $, using the 'part of 3rd fastest supercomputer in the world" headline.

thetman · Jan 29, 2004, 03:52 PM

im getting to listen to Professor Srinidhi Varadarajan next wed. at NASA Langley. hopefully i can ask some questions then as to where those "nice homes" are

LightWaver-67 · Jan 29, 2004, 06:25 PM

Well then... it might be safe to assume that they are NOT actually trading-up with Apple... but just selling-off the other G5 towers and outright purchasing the replacement XServes.

My "guess" is that they are pre-selling the G5 towers... but leaving the cluster up and running until they are ready to do the actual swap/migration.

If they really were trading them in... it would be Apples job to find "new homes" for the towers, not VT.

(Just thought I'd state the obvious)