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daSilVetZ · Mar 6, 2004, 10:05 PM

Okay, I currently own a Cube, G4 450, 640 RAM which I love dearly. For some reason today I suddenly made up my mind to go out and buy a brand new PowerMac G4 1.25 from my local Apple Store tomorrow. As much as I love my Cube, I really would like more speed.. and although I know I could buy a PL 1.2 upgrade for the Cube (about $500), I'd still be stuck with slow RAM, slow bus speed, stuck with a GF3, stuck with heat problems, etc.. Sure, the PowerMac will cost me about $1300 with tax, but hopefully I will be able to sell the Cube for a decent amount. Basically I'd love to hear your opinion/advice onwhat I plan to do, and any comments on the PM 1.25 (which I've read and re-read can be easily overclocked to 1.4-1.5Ghz!). Now, before the G5 partisans assault me on all fronts, the reason I won't buy one is simply because I can't afford one right now, and that I believe that a G41.25 is currently ample power for me. Thanks fellow MacNNers, your advice is well-sought, buying a new Mac is always a special event!

rsgunther · Mar 6, 2004, 10:09 PM

I just recently bought a Powerbook with 1.25 G4 -- It absolutely flies! I have used a tiBook 800 - an ibook 800 G4 - an iMac 800 G4 a Powermac G4 450, and this machine BLOWS them all away. I think you will be VERY pleased with the Powermac 1.25. I also think you will get a good price for the cube, they seem to be a collectors item & many people are looking for them. Put it on EBAY with the original stuff you have (box / books / etc.) - and present it well in the auction and it will sell high.

Good luck with your purchase. In my opinion, you will be very happy with the speed boost. Just make sure you load it up with a LOT of RAM. I am running 1 gig in my Powerbook and I would put at least that much in a Powermac.

superfula · Mar 6, 2004, 10:17 PM

Where have you read that the 1.25 will overclock that much?

As someone who has used dual processor powermacs, and now own a single processor powermac, I would urge you greatly to go the dual 1.25 route. It's night and day difference in speed...mostly with normal osx usage. You should be able to find the dual 1.25 for 1400ish on ebay. The price difference is well worth it.

daSilVetZ · Mar 6, 2004, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by superfula:
Where have you read that the 1.25 will overclock that much?

As someone who has used dual processor powermacs, and now own a single processor powermac, I would urge you greatly to go the dual 1.25 route. It's night and day difference in speed...mostly with normal osx usage. You should be able to find the dual 1.25 for 1400ish on ebay. The price difference is well worth it.

This is one of the places (it's in french) where it mentions the overclock.. As much as I'd love to get a dual, i really don't think I should spend more than $1300.. which for me is already alot! Thanks for the input though

Luca Rescigno · Mar 6, 2004, 10:44 PM

The overclocking is done with Gigadesigns and OWC brand G4 upgrades. They have dip switches onboard that can be used to overclock the chip. My brother runs his G4/1.33 GHz upgrade at 1.467 GHz (it was formerly an 867 MHz). The stock 1.25 GHz PowerMac can't be overclocked without some greater expertise, like soldering. It'll still be wicked fast. The dual 1.25 will be significantly faster, but if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. You might look into a used dual 1 GHz or something, if you can get it for fairly cheap.

reader50 · Mar 6, 2004, 10:47 PM

The G5 1.6 (refurbished) is sometimes available for $1400. You can bookmark Apple's Special Deals page and snap it up the next time one appears.

This might require a lot of waiting.

daSilVetZ · Mar 6, 2004, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
The overclocking is done with Gigadesigns and OWC brand G4 upgrades. They have dip switches onboard that can be used to overclock the chip. My brother runs his G4/1.33 GHz upgrade at 1.467 GHz (it was formerly an 867 MHz). The stock 1.25 GHz PowerMac can't be overclocked without some greater expertise, like soldering. It'll still be wicked fast. The dual 1.25 will be significantly faster, but if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. You might look into a used dual 1 GHz or something, if you can get it for fairly cheap.

Yep, the overclock I linked was done by soldering

Originally posted by reader50:
The G5 1.6 (refurbished) is sometimes available for $1400. You can bookmark Apple's Special Deals page and snap it up the next time one appears.

This might require a lot of waiting.

Unfortunately I am an impulsive buyer, if I don't physically buy it tomorrow, I probably never will! And if I do buy it,I also will probably regret it for a while and then get over it and be extremely happy afterall

But thanks to both of you for your adcice.. I'm definitely picking up on all of your posts pointing towards the PowerMac.. I'm really going to miss the Cube's form factor... but I'm leaning more and more towards that stunningly beautiful tower. But until tomorrow, all this advice is more than welcome

Switched2Mac · Mar 6, 2004, 11:22 PM

Visit your local CompUSA stores.

They invariably have returned G5's. You might be able to get a G5 1.6 for nearly the same price and the speed jump (along with new features) would be well worth any price difference.

Why buy an old G4 PowerMac when the second generation G5's are nearly out, which will drive the prices down on the first gens in stock everywhere?

You might want to control the impulsive buying to get the best deal.

SSharon · Mar 7, 2004, 12:58 AM

I agree with the above poster and others. Either get a dual proc. MDD (which I have), but going from a cube you might not like the noise, or wait till the summer when prices will come down and then get a first gen. G5 or an even cheaper dual G4. Either way, get lots of RAM and good luck getting the best deal.

Graymalkin · Mar 7, 2004, 01:50 AM

A 1.6GHz G5 will set you back $1599 if you downgrade the SuperDrive to a Combo drive. It's quite a bit faster than any of the single processor G4s. In order to match its speed you'd need to find a dual 1.25GHz MDD system loaded up with RAM.

masugu · Mar 7, 2004, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by SSharon:
I agree with the above poster and others. Either get a dual proc. MDD (which I have), but going from a cube you might not like the noise, or wait till the summer when prices will come down and then get a first gen. G5 or an even cheaper dual G4. Either way, get lots of RAM and good luck getting the best deal.

Other than paying out an orifice for RAM from Apple - when buying a new Mac - what is the best / trouble free add on memory to get??? What mfg does Apple use?

Hope this is not too big a deviation from this thread, but perhaps the hopeful budget conscious buyer would like thsi info as well

OreoCookie · Mar 7, 2004, 01:09 PM

Don't.

Don't get a G4. Get a (refurbished) G5. The 1.6 GHz G5 beats all (including Dual 1.42) G4s in most tests, and you can find it for just a little bit more than the G4.

SSharon · Mar 7, 2004, 06:37 PM

I never buy RAM from Apple, I try to get it from Crucial.com and if they cost too much I look at kingston and some other makers, and I have never had any ram go bad on me so I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. I think Apple uses ram from different places, crucial being one of them but I could be wrong about that.

rhogue islander · Mar 7, 2004, 07:26 PM

Be sure to yank that Geforce3 and put it in your new G4 tower. That is one fast video card. The only cards that are faster are the Geforce4 ti and Ati 9800 Pro.

daSilVetZ · Mar 7, 2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by rhogue islander:
Be sure to yank that Geforce3 and put it in your new G4 tower. That is one fast video card. The only cards that are faster are the Geforce4 ti and Ati 9800 Pro.

I have the ATi 9000 in it nw, and after doing some benchmarks it seems that it's faster than my GF3.

Cadaver · Mar 7, 2004, 07:38 PM

IMHO, buying a G4 now is a mistake.

A referb. 1.6GHz or 1.8GHz (single) is nearly the same price and will have a much longer lifespan, not to mention they would be much faster than a G4 for virtually any task.

If you've got the money for a new G4, then stash it away, wait a month, and buy the G5.

rhogue islander · Mar 8, 2004, 09:52 AM

I would compare the cards again when you have your new tower. I would be very surprised if the 9000 came out on top.

If you do, could you let us know the result? tia...

MindFad · Mar 8, 2004, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by daSilVetZ:
I have the ATi 9000 in it nw, and after doing some benchmarks it seems that it's faster than my GF3.

I did some tests the day I got my 9000 for my dual 800.

I replaced my GF3 with a Radeon 9000 to help out a friend who needed a GF3, and the Radeon is plenty slower than the GF3�which is reflected in many benchmarks around the web. The Radeon is almost (but not quite) on par in Quake 3, and that's about it. The GF3 kills it in everything else, noticeably. The extra texture units per pipeline really help the GF3, despite the Radeon's slightly higher clockspeed. Halo was great with my GF3, and it is now unplayable online with almost every map with my Radeon 9000, so I just stopped playing (I guess I'll wait to upgrade or find out for sure if the 9700s work in dual 800 G4s).

daSilVetZ · Mar 8, 2004, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by rhogue islander:
I would compare the cards again when you have your new tower. I would be very surprised if the 9000 came out on top.

If you do, could you let us know the result? tia...

I ran xBench on my PowerMac and also ran time demos with UT2004, the 9000 Pro was faster and scored higher both times. I'll try to post results later.

superfula · Mar 8, 2004, 06:20 PM

I would take a dual 1.25/1.42 or a Single 1.6 or 1.8 G5 anyday. The 1.42 outperforms the 1.6 on any realworld use test. The 1.8 is better, but it's still a single processor, and you still have to have sata drives (only 2 for that matter), and there's still only room for 1 optical drive. If I buy a machine that's as large as the G5 is, it better have room for 4 hd and 2 optical drives.

But why stop there? He should just as well get a dual 1.8 if you think he should save up for a single G5.

OreoCookie · Mar 8, 2004, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by superfula:
I would take a dual 1.25/1.42 or a Single 1.6 or 1.8 G5 anyday. The 1.42 outperforms the 1.6 on any realworld use test. The 1.8 is better, but it's still a single processor, and you still have to have sata drives (only 2 for that matter), and there's still only room for 1 optical drive. If I buy a machine that's as large as the G5 is, it better have room for 4 hd and 2 optical drives.

But why stop there? He should just as well get a dual 1.8 if you think he should save up for a single G5.

Where did you hear that?
AFAIK this is wrong. The memory bandwidth and the radically improved G5 design blow them away. Literally.

Lateralus · Mar 8, 2004, 09:05 PM

You are incorrect.

The Dual 1.25 does a fairly good job of holding the line against the 1.6 and in many cases pulling ahead of it.

The Dual 1.42 is pretty much neck and neck with the 1.8.

I wish everybody would quit over exaggerating the performance boost that the G5 brings and discarding the G4 entirely.

superfula · Mar 8, 2004, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
You are incorrect.

The Dual 1.25 does a fairly good job of holding the line against the 1.6 and in many cases pulling ahead of it.

The Dual 1.42 is pretty much neck and neck with the 1.8.

I wish everybody would quit over exaggerating the performance boost that the G5 brings and discarding the G4 entirely.

Yup. I've never seen otherwise. A few people like to exaggerate the G5 beyond what it can really do. The only benchmark the single G5 beats the dual G4 is in games and non-smp optimized, processor heavy apps. In normal usage, the dual G4s beat the single G5s. As multiprocessor-optimized as OS X is now, it's no surprise.

Graymalkin · Mar 10, 2004, 07:09 AM

MacWorld's G5 tests from September show the 1.42GHz G4 DP systems barely keeping up with even the 1.6GHz G5. There's only a few situations where the dual G4s at either 1.25 or 1.42GHz beat either of the single processor G5s. While the G4 is by no means an obsolete processor, the G5 simply has a lot more to offer. The G5 has optical audio I/O, 8x AGP, SATA, and actually takes advantage of DDR memory. The G4 is stuck with 4x AGP, parallell ATA, analog audio, and can't fully utilize DDR memory. The G5 is just going to be more future compatible with hardware and software that has yet to be released. Now that IBM's XLC compiler is out and ready for use on OSX I don't think it will be long before some truly optimized G5 applications or patches are released.

Luca Rescigno · Mar 10, 2004, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
MacWorld's G5 tests from September show the 1.42GHz G4 DP systems barely keeping up with even the 1.6GHz G5. There's only a few situations where the dual G4s at either 1.25 or 1.42GHz beat either of the single processor G5s. While the G4 is by no means an obsolete processor, the G5 simply has a lot more to offer. The G5 has optical audio I/O, 8x AGP, SATA, and actually takes advantage of DDR memory. The G4 is stuck with 4x AGP, parallell ATA, analog audio, and can't fully utilize DDR memory. The G5 is just going to be more future compatible with hardware and software that has yet to be released. Now that IBM's XLC compiler is out and ready for use on OSX I don't think it will be long before some truly optimized G5 applications or patches are released.

Well, those are Macworld's speed tests. Real world speed is a different story. Also, what's with mentioning a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with speed? Optical audio doesn't have any effect at all. Unless you're using a very fast graphics card, even 4x AGP won't have its bandwidth maximized. Most hard drives can't keep up with ATA/100, so going to SATA isn't a huge benefit, and the G4s aren't stuck with PATA anyway because there are SATA cards available. The only aspect of those four you mentioned that would give the G5 a real advantage is the memory.

The G4 has the advantages of L3 cache, a very short pipeline (7 stages vs. 16 stages for the G5), and a better AltiVec unit. The main disadvantage of the G4s isn't their speed, it's their future upgrade path. Things don't look too promising for a dual 1.42 owner way down the line, since it doesn't look like the G4 will go very far past that. But I doubt they'll have any problems with speed before a G5/1.6 owner does.