[Ruthless]

I wanted to run my current ATA hard disk drives that I was using from my old Power Mac G4 in my new Power Mac G5 that I just got. Looking at the available solutions (which are very nice), I realized I didn't want to spend $300-$500 to do this and started looking at other options.

After a couple of weeks, of me and a friend banging our heads against the wall we came up with what we think is “The Best Bracket Yet” for the Power Mac G5. A Polycarbonate based bracket made by an industrial water cutting machine using 50,000 pounds of water pressure!

http://www.chisenski.com/PhotoAlbum25.html

The Hard Drive Bracket can fit up to 3 - 3 1/2" by 1" hard disk drives (SCSI, IDE or SATA). It fits in front of the 2 fans in cooling zone three and is secured by the screw used to hold the cover plate on the power supply. Like I said the bracket itself is made of 1/4" Polycarbonate, this is the same material used to make bullet proof and BOMB proof windows. This stuff is small arms bullet proof! How cool it that?? You run a bullet proof Personal Computer with the Power Mac G5 why not have a bullet proof hard disk drive bracket?

After putting the device in my Power Mac G5 (Dual 1.8GHz) this week and showing it off to a few of my friends that have G5’s, I was asked if I could make another unit for them. After thinking about it, I thought others may like the opportunity to purchase a "kit".

The kit would include the Polycarbonate bracket, all screws to assemble and mount 3 hard drives and the allen wrench (it also mounts to the bottom G5 plate). It would be up to you to provide the power and data cables. Again, you could mount SCSI, IDE or SATA drives with no problem. I will use eBay to offer the units for sale.

Perfect for high end Photoshop, Final Cut Pro work or anything else where a terabyte or more of storage would come in handy!

Remember, visit the link listed above (hosted on .Mac), and e-mail me using the "Send me a message" button or e-mail me at walter_chisenski@mac.com You will then be notified when these are available for sale.

[Simon]

Interesting idea, but there is already a similar setup here.

What I'd like to know is if these setups have no influence on the air flow to the CPUs, the temperatures and the fan speeds of the CPU fans.

Any reports? Noise, CPU temperature?

[f1000]

Wouldn’t placing solid blocks of polycarbonate over the drive spindles cause the drives to overheat and, perhaps, fail prematurely?

[danbrew]

Do you guys offer any type of insurance or warranty to ensure that the CPUs won't overheat?

[Ruthless]

I understand there is a similar setup available. If you re-read my original message, I mention there are other solutions around (that are very nice), but did you see the price of that unit? $300... That's the point of the posting...

Since installing the bracket this week, I have ran several tests against my Dual 1.8GHz G5. This included things like.

- Having both CPU's run at 100% utilization (using Folding@home -- still running).

- Setting up CRON jobs to run file copy tests against all 3 drives in the bracket for 24 straight hours.

- Playing multiple QuickTime videos with each source file located on a different drive.

- All of the above going at the same time for prolonged amounts of time.

During those tests, I found (using both Temperature Monitor and ThermographX) that the system maintained an internal temperature no higher than 134.5 F (and my office is warm). Also of note, is that both Processor A and B both reported the same 98 F. Keep in mind that my Dual 1GHz G4 MDD system has an internal temp of around 136 F without all that activity going on (two hard drives and two video cards).

As for the other post that talks about placing polycarbonate over the drive motor, I would like to say that the second and third drive do have cut outs over the drive motor for better air flow. The reason I left the outside one without a cut out is that I was thinking of engraving or sand blasting a logo on it. Since I have decided not to do that (at this time), I may replace that one too with a cut out bracket.

Thanks,

Originally posted by Simon:
Interesting idea, but there is already a similar setup here.

What I'd like to know is if these setups have no influence on the air flow to the CPUs, the temperatures and the fan speeds of the CPU fans.

Any reports? Noise, CPU temperature?

[Ruthless]

Dan,

We haven't looked in to that at this point, as we're really trying to judge feedback at this time. I would be interested to see what the other companies provide in terms of a CPU warranty? As for overheating, to the best of my knowledge, Power Mac's have been setup for some time to go in to sleep mode or power down if this get to warm. So the machine will protect itself to be honest.

Originally posted by danbrew:
Do you guys offer any type of insurance or warranty to ensure that the CPUs won't overheat?

[Gankdawg]

So where do you get the additional power cables from? I assume for data I would buy a PCI card.

[ChrisB]

For power you could just place some Y-adapters off of the existing power cables...but not sure how that affects your current power supply - you want to stay within the proper power draw for the power supply.

[Hydra]

I like the design and salute your ingenuity but the reason most companies make those extra G5 hard-drive brackets from aluminum is to create a heat sink for all the heat those drives are gonna make. Going from one drive to two in my G5 has made the drive section of the case get much much hotter. Apple's new firmware for the G5 recently reduced the threshold for the fan that cools the drive bays to make it start spinning faster at lower temperatures just for this reason. Putting 3 high-speed drive sandwiched between ploycarb, which in all likelihood not let heat escape very well, will most definitely cause problems for the drives. There have been a slew of heat related failures in the dual SATA G5 set-ups and they have decent ventilation space and a dedicated cooling fan.

I think the CPU's themselves will be fine, if the drives heat up things a bit the fans will just spin faster but I think you may be opening yourself up to legal action if people have trouble with either the HD's or the G5 itself. There is a reason those other brackets are so expensive in the first place. One they are metal and two they have spent some dough testing them for reliability (I still think they are a little overpriced for what they are though).

Good luck, I wish you well in your endeavor. A few questions: Can that machine cut Aluminum? I'm pretty sure they can. Those might be a little more expensive to make but they would help if you made them oversized (twice as wide say) - extended closer to the CPU's for example which would help to carry heat away from the drive. Metal ones could still be made reasonably cheap but be far more attractive to purchase. Just a thought.

-Jerry C.

[Ruthless]

Hydra,

You bring up some interesting points. Although I do have a question.

Look at all of the current Firewire enclosures on the market. Some are made of aluminum, some out of plastic. The 3.5" models have NO FAN inside them and you sandwich the drive in there with no air flow at all. While aluminum will transfer the heat well and the plastic does the same to a lesser degree, I know the drive in my Firewire enclosure (http://sanmax.com/products/index.cgi...part=HD-337-FW) gets warmer than the 3 I had in the G5 after a week of testing (with file copies going 24/7 via CRON jobs).

Even without seeing any issues, my friend and I have decided to use "U" brackets on all 3 drives (there were already "U" brackets on the two inner drives). This will allow for more of the drive to be exposed to the airflow from the two fans in zone three.

Updated pictures are located here: http://www.chisenski.com/PhotoAlbum26.html

Let me know what you think, thanks!

Originally posted by Hydra:
I like the design and salute your ingenuity but the reason most companies make those extra G5 hard-drive brackets from aluminum is to create a heat sink for all the heat those drives are gonna make. Going from one drive to two in my G5 has made the drive section of the case get much much hotter. Apple's new firmware for the G5 recently reduced the threshold for the fan that cools the drive bays to make it start spinning faster at lower temperatures just for this reason. Putting 3 high-speed drive sandwiched between ploycarb, which in all likelihood not let heat escape very well, will most definitely cause problems for the drives. There have been a slew of heat related failures in the dual SATA G5 set-ups and they have decent ventilation space and a dedicated cooling fan.

I think the CPU's themselves will be fine, if the drives heat up things a bit the fans will just spin faster but I think you may be opening yourself up to legal action if people have trouble with either the HD's or the G5 itself. There is a reason those other brackets are so expensive in the first place. One they are metal and two they have spent some dough testing them for reliability (I still think they are a little overpriced for what they are though).

Good luck, I wish you well in your endeavor. A few questions: Can that machine cut Aluminum? I'm pretty sure they can. Those might be a little more expensive to make but they would help if you made them oversized (twice as wide say) - extended closer to the CPU's for example which would help to carry heat away from the drive. Metal ones could still be made reasonably cheap but be far more attractive to purchase. Just a thought.

-Jerry C.

[f1000]

Why not replace the "U" brackets altogether with 1 mm thick metal brackets mounted to the side of each drive? There are three screw holes available on the side of each hard drive.

Another issue: how are the hard drives being grounded to the computer chassis? Failure to properly ground a drive can result in data errors.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

God I would never do anything like this. I would rather have some Firewire 800 drives in the shelf out of the way.

[bobguthrie]

As far as my "Franken5" (Dual G5 2.0Ghz in the process of being... "modified,") set up is concerned, your bracket system would give me an altenate option for the bottom Drive set.

Here is the (Mad) future expantion plans for my G5:

[X] Ram: Maxed out at 8Gigs RAM (Rumors of a future 2Gigs RAM chip could bring it up to 16Gigs.)
[ ] Video: RADEON X800 XT Platinum Edition, 256MB GDDR3 (IF a Mac version is issued.)
[ ] Hardrives: Seven (X7) 400Gigs Hitachi Drives, mounted as follows:
-Two (X2) on G5's Bays.
-Two (X2) Mounted on Wiebetech's G5 Jam Expansion Kit
-Three (X3) Mounted on either ProMax Internal SATA Kit, or Chisenski's PolyCarbonate Multiformat Drive Bracket System
Total Gigs: 2.8Terabites, 2 PCI ports used for SATA cards
[X] GeeThree's Stealth Serial Port (On the last PCI port.)
[X] Power Support's G5 SkateBoard.
[X] Power Support's G5 Roof. There are two extra features for this unit, one that adds a frontal Multicard Reader, and a secondary one (But it still can be added in alongside the Reader) that adds an external, under the hood/roof, Firewire drive, but it's only available in Japan.

Crazy, Yes. Expensive, OH YEAH!. Will it work?, (A) Enough juice to run all the inserted hardware?, don't know, i'm still researching that,... (B) Overheating?, Researching that too, so we will see.

[bobguthrie]

If you think this is insane, you probably never saw my old "FrankenBlue" (Blue&White PowerPC.) Friends keep wondering why it hasn't melted or exploded like a mini "Chernobyl."

Well,... MUHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!,... Uh, i mean, i just tell them "there is nothing to it."

[jasong]

Originally posted by Simon:
Interesting idea, but there is already a similar setup here.

What I'd like to know is if these setups have no influence on the air flow to the CPUs, the temperatures and the fan speeds of the CPU fans.

Any reports? Noise, CPU temperature?

From that link

taking The McIntosh G-5 to a new level of excellence.

McIntosh? That alone would make me nervous about using their product.

-- Jason

[Gankdawg]

Originally posted by ChrisB:
you want to stay within the proper power draw for the power supply.

That is exactly my concern. This still sounds like a neat idea. I also am leery of the cooling of the rest of the innards as well.

[seabasstin]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
God I would never do anything like this. I would rather have some Firewire 800 drives in the shelf out of the way.

Right on dude, I think this is what are they thinking:

Firewire 800 QPS 200GB:$339.99 http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3821387
200GB x 6=1200GB
$339.99 x 6= $2039.94

Serial ATA HD 250GB:$175 http://us-depot.com/ma2572sahadr.html
250GB x 5= 1250 GB
$175 x 5= $875
1.25TB=$875

If you are a video editor on a budget, and you need to get your work done affordably, because you mostly shoot weddings which pay crap; what do you think I would want.

Furthermore do you really believe the firewire 800 drives are safer than the internal drives?
I mean we are talking about drives which are connected over a format bridge, in the case of the Firewire drives; verses directly connected drives in the case of the ATA drives, even if they are connect via a PCI card.
If you are worried at all about data integrity, avoid firewire drives in general for mission critical situations, such as a video raid, where the risk of a transfer failure would be doubled, as there would the coversion to worry about.
Sure tons of people do it, but why pay the extra for extra risk.

The real issue here is why the hell did Apple not give people real workstation space for the workstation price.
Bring back the PowerMac 9600 gdit.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by seabasstin:

If you are a video editor on a budget, and you need to get your work done affordably, because you mostly shoot weddings which pay crap; what do you think I would want.

Furthermore do you really believe the firewire 800 drives are safer than the internal drives?
I mean we are talking about drives which are connected over a format bridge, in the case of the Firewire drives; verses directly connected drives in the case of the ATA drives, even if they are connect via a PCI card.

1) First if I can afford a G5 I can spring for another firewire drive.
2) Yes FW 800 is safer because you don't run the risk of overheating your expensive g5 with some messed up mod.
3) you don't totally void your warranty.
4) the time you spend doing this funky mod you could do another job and afford a FW drive.

[Eug Wanker]

I don't think external Firewire 800 is a good solution. Apple would get several more happy pro customers if they simply reintroduced the ability to run more internal hard drives. There is certainly space inside for another drive (although 3 more is pushing it).

Three situations where I think 3 drives would be useful:

1) Extra hard drive space, obviously, where someone doesn't want to clutter up his/her desk and spend the money on the external drive anyway.
2) Single boot drive, and separate two-drive RAID0 scratch disk. This would be perfect for something like Photoshop, and I'm guessing for Final Cut Pro HD, too.
3) 3-drive RAID5

Apple's choice of allowing for only 2 internal hard drives in a "Pro" machine seems bizarre.

[Xapplimatic@Ade]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
I don't think external Firewire 800 is a good solution. Apple would get several more happy pro customers if they simply reintroduced the ability to run more internal hard drives. There is certainly space inside for another drive (although 3 more is pushing it).

Three situations where I think 3 drives would be useful:

1) Extra hard drive space, obviously, where someone doesn't want to clutter up his/her desk and spend the money on the external drive anyway.
2) Single boot drive, and separate two-drive RAID0 scratch disk. This would be perfect for something like Photoshop, and I'm guessing for Final Cut Pro HD, too.
3) 3-drive RAID5

Apple's choice of allowing for only 2 internal hard drives in a "Pro" machine seems bizarre.

I'm not so sure really.. IMHO, an XServe is a much more useful "PRO" setup for people who need that kind of storage and speed. PowerMac G5s are really designed for medium-use in my book, small business and advertising agencies. Sure they were used for the Big Mac, but there were how many of them networked together? Essentially making them one big Super-RAID.. That's a different scenario all together.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Xapplimatic@Ade:
I'm not so sure really.. IMHO, an XServe is a much more useful "PRO" setup for people who need that kind of storage and speed. PowerMac G5s are really designed for medium-use in my book, small business and advertising agencies. Sure they were used for the Big Mac, but there were how many of them networked together? Essentially making them one big Super-RAID.. That's a different scenario all together.

For a workstation, an Xserve is essentially useless to most people. It is going to be louder than a Power Mac. It ships with OS X Server. There isn't even an AGP slot. And it's HUGE.

Boot drive plus separate 2-drive RAID0 scratch is a pretty common workstation setup actually. And of course, LOTS of people like to have extra hard drive bays for additional internal storage down the line. I'll admit that RAID5 isn't very common in a standard workstation though.

And no, Big Mac is not a big RAID.

[mjsickel]

I have to agree that the G5 is terrible for storage. Not only can't you put more than 2 hard drives in there, you have to use SATA (or SATA adapters), driving up the costs even more.
Add on the fact that the G5 is too big to fit in your average computer hutch, it becomes less attractive.
I'm sticking with my G4 MDD, which has six hard drives inside it. To upgrade it to a G5 would cost a bundle: SATA adapters, external FW cases, new desk, above the cost of the G5.
I guess they can't be perfect.

[davidflas]

Originally posted by mjsickel:
I have to agree that the G5 is terrible for storage. Not only can't you put more than 2 hard drives in there, you have to use SATA (or SATA adapters), driving up the costs even more.
Add on the fact that the G5 is too big to fit in your average computer hutch, it becomes less attractive.
I'm sticking with my G4 MDD, which has six hard drives inside it. To upgrade it to a G5 would cost a bundle: SATA adapters, external FW cases, new desk, above the cost of the G5.
I guess they can't be perfect.

I agree I"m holding on to my Dual 1.25 MDD FW 800 Powermac for a a bit longer too...

[Cadaver]

While I doubt I'd do this to my G5 due to heat & power supply concerns, it does make me wonder...

[tin foil hat ON]
Why is it that the space between the front grille and the CPU fans are EXACTLY big enough to hold a vertical HD. Not a centimeter too narrow, and not gapingly wide. Coincidence? Hmmm....
[/tin foil hat OFF]

[milhous]

It's a shame no one makes an affordable ATA chassis that could sit on top of the CPU.

[starman]

Originally posted by milhous:
It's a shame no one makes an affordable ATA chassis that could sit on top of the CPU.

Seeing the release of this product got me thinking about it again.

I tried the external Firewire solution. Good, but extra fan noise is bad. Also, it takes up extra slots on the UPS unit which isn't good. I tried putting the ATA drive on top of the DVD burner. It worked, but the hard drive got VERY, VERY hot. So, I took it out and bought an SATA drive and put it in the G5, and then did a DiskCopy from the old external ATA drive to the new internal SATA drive. Now my room is quieter.

However, as someone said, I only have space for 2 drives. What if I want a third or fourth? I do video work and right now I don't need the extra space, but what if I do? For $3000 you'd think they'd design the thing better with storage in mind.

So, I might just look into this. I already gave up my Cube for Gigabit, and now I might add more storage to the G5 which I use as my server. The other solution I was looking at was using RAID in a PC chassis but that means taking up space for a whole other PC case which isn't good.

Mike

[Spliffdaddy]

2 quick comments...

The edges of the polycarbonate or acrylic would become glassy smooth if they were heated with a propane torch. The rough edges shown in the pictures don't look good. A few seconds with a torch would fix that.

The average hard drive dissipates a tiny 12 watts of heat over a large surface area. There just about no way to ever 'overheat' a hard drive by using its own heat.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The average hard drive dissipates a tiny 12 watts of heat over a large surface area. There just about no way to ever 'overheat' a hard drive by using its own heat.

If you insulate that 3.5" drive, say, with foam, its temperature will exceed 60-degrees Celsius. Why do you think so many external enclosures have fans and/or vents?

From Maxtor:

Drives are susceptible to elevated temperatures like many of the other components inside the box. Once the average operating temperature exceeds the 60-degree operating specifications for the drive, failure rates start to increase.

http://www.maxtor.com/en/documentati...hite_paper.pdf