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minniegrande · May 10, 2004, 01:13 AM

I'm new to all this, so please bear with me.

We're trying to set up a picture archiving system for a medical facility we own. Initially, access to the image database will be only for the office staff, but eventually, we want people to be able to access it over the net. I originally thought about using an XServe for a server. The more I consider the costs, though, it seems like a G5 tower could work just as well while costing less. I want to set up an external RAID for storage.

This is going to sound inane, but: Can anyone please tell me what are the advantages of using the XServe instead of the tower in terms of performance?

Thanks,
MG

Richard Edgar · May 10, 2004, 09:23 AM

an anyone please tell me what are the advantages of using the XServe instead of the tower in terms of performance?

In terms of out and out number crunching? Little (if anything, I expect that the tower might be better). Rack mount servers are designed for reliability and compactness. If you're thinking of adding one of Apple's own RAIDs, then I suspect that the xServe will integrate with that a little less painfully too.

OreoCookie · May 10, 2004, 10:03 AM

Basically both will do the job. An XServe takes just 1 U of space, but if you don't plan to use more than one any time soon, I guess you can live with a PowerMac Tower, too. AFAIK the mainboard is (at least) nearly identical, you can use the necessary adapter for the XRaid in both.

There are also rackmounts for the G5 I guess as there are some for the G4s.

About costs: how about an XServe cluster node? I mean, you just need the external hd as a boot disk if you buy an XRaid right away (which seems to be what you want).

Angus_D · May 10, 2004, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
There are also rackmounts for the G5 I guess as there are some for the G4s.

While the G4s would rack horizontally quite nicely, the G5s are too tall. Marathon seems to have a crazy solution to this though: G5 rackmounts.

djohnson · May 10, 2004, 04:28 PM

If you are needing something to just host some images, you might even think about going with an iMac. I know eBay used the early ones as servers many years ago...

minniegrande · May 11, 2004, 06:09 PM

Thanks for all the replies. I suspected that performance-wise, there wouldn't be much of an advantage to the XServe over the tower. The XServe RAID connects to the server with fiber optic cables, and I can get a PCI card for that for the G5. The other problem I had was that I wanted to use an external SATA drive for backup (from Granite Digital), and I couldn't see how I can do that with the XServe, considering there are no SATA cables I could connect to from inside (I could be wrong on this, but I really couldn't see the SATA cables lying around the XServe).

The only thing I could see as an advantage to the XServe, so far, is size and it's easy to replace the parts (although they cost an arm and a leg, too).

Lastly, I am also thinking of just using our souped-up Sawtooth (1 GHz CPU, 1 GB RAM). I'm just not sure how that affects performance since we'll also be doing 3D reconstruction. Does the server power affect that, or is that a function of the workstation's power? (Did I mention I'm new to all this?)

Thanks for all the help.

OreoCookie · May 11, 2004, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by minniegrande:
Thanks for all the replies. I suspected that performance-wise, there wouldn't be much of an advantage to the XServe over the tower. The XServe RAID connects to the server with fiber optic cables, and I can get a PCI card for that for the G5. The other problem I had was that I wanted to use an external SATA drive for backup (from Granite Digital), and I couldn't see how I can do that with the XServe, considering there are no SATA cables I could connect to from inside (I could be wrong on this, but I really couldn't see the SATA cables lying around the XServe).

The only thing I could see as an advantage to the XServe, so far, is size and it's easy to replace the parts (although they cost an arm and a leg, too).

Lastly, I am also thinking of just using our souped-up Sawtooth (1 GHz CPU, 1 GB RAM). I'm just not sure how that affects performance since we'll also be doing 3D reconstruction. Does the server power affect that, or is that a function of the workstation's power? (Did I mention I'm new to all this?)

Thanks for all the help.

You shouldn't use this souped up sawtooth, the performance of the G5 will be much higher. And since you require an XRaid to cope with all the images, You should stick to a new machine.

I also wouldn't consider an iMac. A G5 with XRaid and UPS (backup power supply, very, very important) should do the trick.

Spliffdaddy · May 11, 2004, 11:07 PM

Over the years, I've literally served terabytes of images using a Celeron 500, 10/100 NIC, and a outbound-throttled (40KB/sec) broadband connection.

If all you need is a fileserver for images - then very little effort is required from the CPU. Almost any desktop platform can saturate a fast network connection. And almost any hard drive's read/write speed (30MB/sec) will be more than adequate to keep up with the data on a small network.

Unless you're expecting dozens of simultaneous users who will be requesting large (100MB+) image files - literally any computer will work - and work well.

Eug Wanker · May 11, 2004, 11:15 PM

The Xserve comes with OS X Server... with admin tools. It also has the hardware monitoring feature.

BTW, what kind of medical images, and what software?

minniegrande · May 12, 2004, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
The Xserve comes with OS X Server... with admin tools. It also has the hardware monitoring feature.

BTW, what kind of medical images, and what software?

Quite right. Didn't really think of that, and that would cost $1000 extra if I get the G5.

Medical images are mostly DICOM. For the web server, we'll translate them to JPEGs. The images will come from CT, MRI, ultrasound (these three are already digital), and the XRays eventually. (We're not digitizing mammos for various reasons.) We have our own database software (4D). For DICOM viewer, we'll use Osirix.

Most of the PACS systems out there are Windows-based, and I think my boss will rather eat glass than buy a Windows machine.

Richard Edgar · May 12, 2004, 04:07 AM

I think that it might be best to talk to your local Apple reseller (or more than one, if possible). Think carefully about what you expect this rig to be doing in a year or so's time. Then add at least 10%. Then ask the resellers what they would suggest. For the amount you'll be spending, you should get more than just a salesdroid. If you then want to put the prices in perspective, ask Sun to come along and give an estimate for the same thing.

And always remember that the most expensive tool is a cheap one which doesn't do what you want.

Eug Wanker · May 12, 2004, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by minniegrande:
Medical images are mostly DICOM. For the web server, we'll translate them to JPEGs. The images will come from CT, MRI, ultrasound (these three are already digital), and the XRays eventually. (We're not digitizing mammos for various reasons.) We have our own database software (4D). For DICOM viewer, we'll use Osirix.

Dammit, the radiologists always get the neat toys.

But yeah, it sounds like MacNN isn't gonna be the best source of real info for this type of implementation.

aaanorton · May 12, 2004, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Richard Edgar:
I think that it might be best to talk to your local Apple reseller (or more than one, if possible). Think carefully about what you expect this rig to be doing in a year or so's time. Then add at least 10%. Then ask the resellers what they would suggest. For the amount you'll be spending, you should get more than just a salesdroid. If you then want to put the prices in perspective, ask Sun to come along and give an estimate for the same thing.

I would love nothing more than for this to be true for the Apple retail stores. Sadly, it is not. I live in Los Angeles, home of Apple's "flagship" Grove store as well as 3 others within easy driving distance. I consulted with the "business specialist" and store manager at all of these stores while trying to buy ~$30k worth of hardware from Apple. While being reasonably friendly and (in some cases) well-meaning, they were categorically useless for a business purchaser. I took my issues as high as I could go inside Apple, finally getting an apology from (one of) SJ's assistant. There is a lot of press these days about Apple perusing business purchases through Tim Cook's initiatives, but it's all smoke, as far as I can tell.

minniegrande · May 12, 2004, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Richard Edgar:
I think that it might be best to talk to your local Apple reseller (or more than one, if possible). Think carefully about what you expect this rig to be doing in a year or so's time. Then add at least 10%. Then ask the resellers what they would suggest. For the amount you'll be spending, you should get more than just a salesdroid. If you then want to put the prices in perspective, ask Sun to come along and give an estimate for the same thing.

And always remember that the most expensive tool is a cheap one which doesn't do what you want.

Thanks for the advice. I agree with you, of course. Proof of the pudding is in the fact that I'm now choosing between the XServe and the G5 (not some cheap Wintel box). If the Sawtooth could perform as a server, I wasn't going to turn my back on it just because it's not an expensive machine. But my boss did say that he doesn't want to support the older hardware anymore, so the Sawtooth will be used as a workstation until it croaks. We have about 15 Macs at the office, and most of them will be replaced by G5s and eMacs (front-office stuff).

I have to say that I never even thought of asking Sun. We have a couple of their workstations for 3D stuff, but they're not being supported anymore. Most of the vendors have moved to Windows.

I'll be visiting the Apple Store in SF soon and try to talk to their staff in the Genius Bar. I just wanted to have a better understanding of what I need (I totally distrust sales people, even if they work for Apple) before talking to them.

One of the favorite maxims in the medical sales industry is: "As long as the client is ignorant, we're in business." It's the same reason we're keen about doing it ourselves. Support from these guys is very expensive, and half the time their tech doesn't really know what he's doing. When we upgrade, they try to wring every dollar they can get from us again. I think the turning point was when they wanted $25K for a card to be added to our machine in order to let it communicate with a server. For that amount of money, I could buy 5 G5s! I just want to be able to configure our system pretty much at whim. If we need more storage, I can just add more harddrives to the RAID or add a new RAID. I don't have to pay $50K for that each time to a vendor.

Okay, enough venting.

I did get some good ideas from reading here. Thanks again.

OreoCookie · 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Over the years, I've literally served terabytes of images using a Celeron 500, 10/100 NIC, and a outbound-throttled (40KB/sec) broadband connection.

If all you need is a fileserver for images - then very little effort is required from the CPU. Almost any desktop platform can saturate a fast network connection. And almost any hard drive's read/write speed (30MB/sec) will be more than adequate to keep up with the data on a small network.

Unless you're expecting dozens of simultaneous users who will be requesting large (100MB+) image files - literally any computer will work - and work well.

Depends.
Depends on which computer takes care of the database load. If the Mac is supposed to do that, this changes the necessities for CPU power.

Also, as suggested, in the future images should be distributed over the web, which probably means that images are scaled on the fly (e. g. via suitable functions in php. This requires quite some CPU power if you have a couple of users.

I run a FreeBSD server (P1 200 enough RAM) at home and for easy stuff like SAMBA and backups, it's fine. But we're talking about business here. So a new machine will also have a longer lifespan.

Richard Edgar · May 13, 2004, 02:15 AM

Proof of the pudding is in the fact that I'm now choosing between the XServe and the G5 (not some cheap Wintel box)

If this machine has to face the open 'net, I would expect the cheap competition to be in the form of a Lintel box. Even then, cheap is relative - I wouldn't expect decent Lintel (or LAMD

) kit to be much cheaper. Indeed, if you're already confident about administering OSX, then the costs of learning how to administer Linux could well exceed the hardware savings (another thing people sometimes forget). As far as asking Sun - I was half-joking. Sun kit is very expensive, and not very fast (if you think Motorola had problems with the G4, take a look at the UltraSPARC). It is, however, built like a tank.

I totally distrust sales people, even if they work for Apple

Undoubtedly wise. One quote I liked about being a sysadmin was "You have to be good at poker, so you can work out which of the vendors isn't bluffing"

OreoCookie · May 13, 2004, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by Richard Edgar:
If this machine has to face the open 'net, I would expect the cheap competition to be in the form of a Lintel box. Even then, cheap is relative - I wouldn't expect decent Lintel (or LAMD ) kit to be much cheaper. Indeed, if you're already confident about administering OSX, then the costs of learning how to administer Linux could well exceed the hardware savings (another thing people sometimes forget). As far as asking Sun - I was half-joking. Sun kit is very expensive, and not very fast (if you think Motorola had problems with the G4, take a look at the UltraSPARC). It is, however, built like a tank.
Undoubtedly wise. One quote I liked about being a sysadmin was "You have to be good at poker, so you can work out which of the vendors isn't bluffing"

Well, their Opteron kits are fast.
But I don't think these (dual) Opteron servers are any cheaper than a G5.