[kokkao]

I found this link on another forum - some of you may have seen it but some might not.
http://gflpraxis.no-ip.com/mvp-price.html
Thanks greatly to the author - I hope posting the link here is ok.

[storer]

Originally posted by kokkao:
I found this link on another forum - some of you may have seen it but some might not.
http://gflpraxis.no-ip.com/mvp-price.html
Thanks greatly to the author - I hope posting the link here is ok.

Thats a useful resource! I have bookmarked that one. I had no doubt that macs were cheaper in the first place.

[mitchell_pgh]

Interesting comparison... but it's still difficult to say that because people will always complain that "I could build one for $5" etc. etc.

Most consumers wouldn't know the difference between a CD ROM drive and a Superdrive other then one of them is really inexpensive.

There is also the argument that you can't buy a Mac for under $799 (minus a referbished/educational or outdated) where you can find Dell computers for $499.

Just playing devils advocate.

[mbryda]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:

There is also the argument that you can't buy a Mac for under $799 (minus a referbished/educational or outdated) where you can find Dell computers for $499.

Just playing devils advocate.

And that Dell (all Dells) are genuine POS computers. You get what you pay for - you won't get a Cadillac for a Yugo price.

[Commodus]

That article is fairly relevant. I'd point out a couple of things though:

First, it's Dell. There are well-known companies who can undercut Dell's price with similar or better specs (for both the desktop and laptop). Of course, questions of reliability and tech support quality get introduced in those cases, but Apple is still more expensive.

The other issue is that Apple doesn't necessarily give the customer a choice, like mitchell_pgh noted. You *must* buy the 17" CRT, software bundle, speakers, and so on. That's fine if you don't have those parts already and want them, but not everyone does. Some people have some or all of the hardware/software they'd need beyond the computer itself. Not to mention that while proper 3D graphics help the performance, not everyone needs more than basic 2D functions.

So what I would say is that Apple is providing good value for the money (for those who don't need a standalone tower), the bar for entry is pretty high.

[Graymalkin]

The Dells for $499 are pretty horrible computers. They've got umpteen jigahertz processors with anemic RAM, some of which is donated to the equally anemic video card. They're not even really that useful to the "just want to surf the web and check e-mail" market segment. All the jigahertz in the world don't help XP much when there's not enough memory to keep the system from hitting the swap when programs are opened. The Dimension 2400 is not a good computer overall.

The more worthwhile Dimensions are much closer to the price of the eMac while the eMac still has a better video card, a Firewire port, and a built-in WiFi antenna. While people with existing computer gear are probably going to be turned off by the eMac there's still plenty of people either buying their first computer or wanting a whole widget. The lack of choice for a large portion of the market isn't a real issue.

Many people simply have a stigma against Macs because they typically perceive them as "expensive" and magazines and websites they read also reenforce the "expensive" meme. While there's Macs that cost $3000 there's quite a few that are priced below $1500 and two below $1000. Most people aren't aware of how much Windows PCs really cost to not only buy but run daily. The Mac might be a little more up front but ends up lasting longer than most PCs and requires a far smaller investment in protective software to make up for the security problems in Windows. While I can easily see my Powerbook saves me from yearly AntiVirus suite upgrades, downtime from viruses and worms, and lets me spend more time working than fixing things; most people can't because they lack experience with Macs.

A $499 bargain PC is rarely ever really a bargain. Over two years that's two AV updates, at least one memory upgrade, and a DVD drive to simply watch movies. Even then the PC wouldn't be able to edit video from a DV camera, burn CDs, or play any 3D games with any capability.

[Krusty]

A few points:
-- Yes, Apple laptops are smokin' hot deals. They really are a lot for the money (which, I suppose, is why Apple sells a much higher percentage of laptops compared to desktops than the rest of the industry)

-- I did a similar comparison back in 1999 when I was preparing to buy a computer. On the one side was the iMac DV SE at $1499 and one the other side was a Dell PC that matched specs as closely as possible to the iMac (15" CRT, 600mhz Celeron, same memory, drive, add firewire and ethernet to the PC .. etc, etc). Even back then, the Dell configured to $1471 vs the iMac's $1499 (and I actually got the iMac for $1450 -- one of those we-can't-advertise-a-price-lower-than-Apple-but-if-you-add-this-to-your-cart-you-will-see-a-discount sorta things). Needless to say, the extras that came with the iMac (software wise) made it even more attractive.

--One caveat, you are pretty much stuck with Apple's configs which makes a difference if you really need something special or different from what they offer. For example, a few hundred more bucks and you can juice up the Dell with RAM and a good graphics card and make an excellent gaming machine. You have no such option with an eMac. [aside] I could give a rat's @ss about gaming, which is one major reason Macs are a better equation for me.[/aside]


--Also, comparisons such as these are bound to be arbitrary to some degree -- you CAN get cheaper things than Dell's (then again, you could also get a Sony Vaio series which typically match Macs when it comes to having all the appropriate hardware and software for A/V stuff built-in ... and they tend to cost more than Macs ) Though, I largely agree that Dell systems are reasonable benchmarks to use because they are the largest PC vendor AND are the only ones who come really close to Apple in most hardware reliability surveys (I saw a poll in Consumer Reports that showed Apple and Dell to be head and shoulders above other brands for reliability -- Apple had a very slight edge, but it was close enough not to be a real issue between those 2 vendors, IMO).

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
A $499 bargain PC is rarely ever really a bargain. Over two years that's two AV updates, at least one memory upgrade, and a DVD drive to simply watch movies. Even then the PC wouldn't be able to edit video from a DV camera, burn CDs, or play any 3D games with any capability.

Considering most people write documents, surf the web and email. The days of the $1000+ computers are numbered for most consumers.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Considering most people write documents, surf the web and email. The days of the $1000+ computers are numbered for most consumers.

Good point ... for a large number of users, a $499 machine is sufficient (which is why they have become such a large niche in the industry). Macs really shine if you actually use the goodies that come with them ... then they are great deals for consumer machines.

[MrForgetable]

Originally posted by Krusty:
Good point ... for a large number of users, a $499 machine is sufficient (which is why they have become such a large niche in the industry). Macs really shine if you actually use the goodies that come with them ... then they are great deals for consumer machines.

That is what I told my sister and that is what convinced her to switch. Now she doesn't need to go buy all this software. Safari, iTunes, iPhoto, Garageband, and iMovie is pretty much all she needs except the Microsoft Office 2004 suite which she got. So now she's setup with 20GB of free space to play with and all the software she needs besides the mucho expensive Photoshop All that, a combo drive, in a slick and light package, OS X, and wireless internet for $1150. Pretty good deal I say.

[Graymalkin]

While most people will say they just want to "surf the web, get e-mail, and write documents" there is quite a bit more they actually do with their computers. People also like to listen to music, share pictures, chat with their friends, and play games. The low end $499 Dell doesn't do any of those things very well except maybe chat with friends.

In my experience with people buying $499 POS computers are once bitten and twice shy. I know several people that went for extreme low-end PCs and were burned by their descision. The chief complaints I've heard from these people is that their games don't play well if at all and the computers despite being 2.4GHz are horrendously slow.

I agree that $1000 aren't the apples (ha ha) of people's eyes but once they've been burned by their $499 POS box they're far more likely to spend more to get a well running computer. I think Apple ought to jump on this market segment, people that are disappointed with their discount PC, with their Switch campaign. The $499 PC is just about the lowest price a functional system is going to get from any major vendor. These low-end PCs are little better than the low-end systems of two years ago, their main differences are the processor speed and hard drive size. Even with faster processors these low-end systems haven't actually sped up performance wise because they've got the same bottlenecks as their two year old counterparts.

[majdadefp]

Apple should also look into pushing the refurbished option- there are lots of great Macs out there that are just a few years old and can be had at bargain prices (check eBay sometime, not to mention some of the resellers out there that deal in refurbished systems). Because of the high quality and reliability of Macs, these machines usually have several years of life left and can do what most people need. I'm convinced that once someone starts using a Mac, chances are their next computer is going to be made by Apple as well (and they are likely to go with a new one the next time around .. . .)
Just my 32 cents .. .

[dave a]

Wal-Mart $299 Lindows machines are apparently more than enough for the average user... Apple's going to have to start offering something good without a monitor in the below-$1,000 range soon...more schools are leaving, and not all want laptops.

[klinux]

Not only are Macs cheaper, they will cook, clean, and dust for you too!

What's next? BMWs are actually cheaper than Toyota too?

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by majdadefp:
Apple should also look into pushing the refurbished option- there are lots of great Macs out there that are just a few years old and can be had at bargain prices (check eBay sometime, not to mention some of the resellers out there that deal in refurbished systems). Because of the high quality and reliability of Macs, these machines usually have several years of life left and can do what most people need. I'm convinced that once someone starts using a Mac, chances are their next computer is going to be made by Apple as well (and they are likely to go with a new one the next time around .. . .)
Just my 32 cents .. .

They do sell refurbished Macs. On the right side of the online Apple Store there's a giant red "Save" tag. That's a link to their used/refurbished section.

[Paul Huang]

I caught Dell with its pants down, and it's not a pretty sight.

I helped a teacher order the following:

15" TFT
3.06 GHz Pentium4 HT
48X CD-RW
80GB/7,200 RPM
512 MB DDR RAM

$726 AFTER TAX and shipping.

He was given notices of delay after delay and option to cancel and cancel and cancel. Ordered on July 21 and now won't ship until August 30.

I am asked him to stick with it. In the meantime, the 15" TFT is no longer a $150 option. It's $390. We'll see how Dell gets out of this one.They can just shove it where the moon don't shine.

[klinux]

Originally posted by Paul Huang:
I caught Dell with its pants down, and it's not a pretty sight.

Good deal but no big deal. People on techbargains, fatwallet, etc. find deals like this all the time. But as any zealot will tell you, a G3 450 with 64MB of RAM is faster than that (fingers in ear - la la la).

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by klinux:
Not only are Macs cheaper, they will cook, clean, and dust for you too!

What's next? BMWs are actually cheaper than Toyota too?

You laugh, but compare the total cost of ownership of a BMW to a Yugo.

I think you would be amazed that the BMW is cheaper.

[Zoom]

Originally posted by Paul Huang:
I caught Dell with its pants down, and it's not a pretty sight.

I helped a teacher order the following:

15" TFT
3.06 GHz Pentium4 HT
48X CD-RW
80GB/7,200 RPM
512 MB DDR RAM

$726 AFTER TAX and shipping.

He was given notices of delay after delay and option to cancel and cancel and cancel. Ordered on July 21 and now won't ship until August 30.

I am asked him to stick with it. In the meantime, the 15" TFT is no longer a $150 option. It's $390. We'll see how Dell gets out of this one.They can just shove it where the moon don't shine.

Don't hold your breath. I found a similar deal and they came back and said it was a mistake and wouldn't honor it. On another occasion, they delayed my iPod shipment twice at two weeks each (or worse, can't quite recall) before I finally gave up - also an amazing deal, too good to be true. Throughout the process, the customer support was absolutely horrible, even rude. I will never, ever buy a thing from them again.

[Xyrrus]

Originally posted by Zoom:
Don't hold your breath. I found a similar deal and they came back and said it was a mistake and wouldn't honor it. On another occasion, they delayed my iPod shipment twice at two weeks each (or worse, can't quite recall) before I finally gave up - also an amazing deal, too good to be true. Throughout the process, the customer support was absolutely horrible, even rudge. I will never, ever buy a thing from them again.

By and large, I've had pretty good expierences with Dell. We buy about 4 of them a month for the office, and usually end up with something like a free flat panel display or a double ram promo. They do change these deals up very frequently though and the price of a Dell changes almost hourly. We've had prices fluctuate $150 up and down by waiting a day. Also, we've had pretty good expierences getting them to honor promos that expire while sitting in our shopping cart for a day. Anyways, we've gotten probably 8 or so free 15" flat panels and maybe 6 17" flat panels that cost us $150 or so each or so. Just thought I'd balance things out here a bit. Just goes to show YMWV and to be fair, my business *does* have a Dell rep we order through.

Honestly though, you can make the price argument either way by picking and chosing and then extrapolating those results across the line. For instance:

- When you figure in software and upgrades the eMacs we buy at work are a bit more than the Dells, but not terribly so for a business. They come with a few extra goodies like a better graphics card and a CD burner, but they take up a lot of space because we can't use flat panels on them.

- I have a 1Ghz powerbook that cost me $3,000 new and, at the time, nothing in the PC would could beat it in terms of price/performance. I wanted a small form factor, battery life, a recent graphics accelerator, etc, etc. Other PCs could match some of these things for less (compromising size of the enclosure for instance) but the only ones that matched everything were at least the same price.

- I also just built myself a $1500 PC for gaming and there is *nothing* Apple offers that could touch it in terms of price/performance. That's why a lot of PC's really shine in the mid-range - they allow you to pick and choose what suits you best.

But it'd be silly to use any of those examples to draw an across-the-board conclusion. The point is that you can usually make the numbers say what you want; it all comes down to (duh) what suits your needs best.

[em500]

Will you people stop those stupid car comparisons already? Especially the tired Apple = BWM. I happen to think BMW is an overpriced piece of crap. I don't feel that way towards Apple, but I might if people just keep bringing this up. Even in Germany, BWM scores consistently lower than the Japanese when it comes to reliability and customer satisfaction. I'd buy a Toyota before a BMW any day.

[andreas_g4]

Originally posted by em500:
Even in Germany, BWM scores consistently lower than the Japanese when it comes to reliability and customer satisfaction.

Source?

[em500]

Source was a Dutch newspaper I read last year (sorry, not everything is on-line). What I did find on-line is a British report and an ongoing survey from a Dutch car magazine. And here are resutls of an analysis of 500.000 car breakdowns in Germany. When it comes to reliability, the top Japanese brands are simply the best.

[Will C]

Originally posted by em500:
Will you people stop those stupid car comparisons already? Especially the tired Apple = BWM. I happen to think BMW is an overpriced piece of crap. I don't feel that way towards Apple, but I might if people just keep bringing this up. Even in Germany, BWM scores consistently lower than the Japanese when it comes to reliability and customer satisfaction. I'd buy a Toyota before a BMW any day.

Here here, I can second that, nice cars BMWs but not that great, and the servicing in my experience is a complete ripoff (at least in the UK)