[Turnpike]

I've been waiting to upgrade, and finally did -- I got a refurbished dualie 1.8. It shipped today, and I just got it set up.

First off, it doesn't boot consistently. It hangs during various stages of boot. Sometimes, it hangs at the grey Apple screen, sometimes when the startup bar comes up... Once, it even hung halfway through the startup chime (I didn't even know this was possible!)

So, I did all the usual stuff when you just set up a new computer... read through the manual in case I forgot something, checked all the cords, gave it a little time, et cetera. Tried it again. Still no go. Tried it again for kicks, and it started up. Great, maybe it would mysteriously be fixed for the rest of its tenure as my computer.

I finished the registration process and poked around... everything looked fine. I decided I'd shut it down so I could load my documents and what have you onto my iPod for transfer (I have no network, and only one monitor... since I was only moving a few things, this seemed to be an easy way to go). When I went to start it up again, same problem.

I tried repeatedly to get it to start, and it did. Weird. I decided I'd start up from CD and repair permissions, then come here and ask if it still didn't work. Hit F12 on my Logitech keyboard to open the CD tray. The metal cover slid about halfway down and the drive made an awful sound as the tray slid out part way. Tried again, this time holding the door down with my finger. Turns out the tray itself gets stuck on the top of the hole it is supposed to slide out of.

So, booting is spotty and the optical drive tray will not open. What do I do? It's quite a journey to the nearest Apple store, but I'd be willing to do it if that's what it takes. I was hoping an Apple Certified Refurb wouldn't have any problems I'd have to deal with. I guess I was wrong. Do I need to return it? Call/email Apple? Drive down to the Apple Store and complain?


BTW, I purchased this online directly from Apple.




Thanks for any help you can give... this computer was supposed to be my baby

[reader50]

Try reseating the RAM. Freeze on the grey screen before the Apple logo and progress whirlie is likely during the bootup RAM test. Freeze during the progress whirlie is the boot HD integrity check. Once the GUI starts, with the OSX splash screen and progress bar, the system files are loading from the HD into RAM.

Fixing the CD drive alignment shouldn't be too hard, loosen up the drive mounting screws and nudge it a little in the direction it needs to go to clear the door. Once that works, boot from CD and do a repair of the HD, then the permissions repair.

If these steps do not stop the freezes, boot from the hardware test CD, see what it can find out.

[Turnpike]

Okay, I will do that... should I worry, though, that a certified refurb has such problems? I wouldn't imagine these things would have happened during shipping...

[Turnpike]

Update: Zapping PRAM seemed to cure the boot issues. Removing the drive and replacing it didn't seem to help -- much. The drive can now open, although it needs a helpful poke. It closes just fine.

Anyone have any tips on getting the drive to sit properly? And still, should I be worried that a refurb came to me in such a state?

[reader50]

The drive should not need a helpful poke to open. It's either not aligned perfectly yet, or it has an internal problem preventing it from opening on it's own.

Neither refurbs nor new G5s should come with problems like this. Unfortunately, a significant number of them have been lately. Apple is missing something on the quality control front, perhaps by skipping outside beta testing because of the new product secrecy.

[Turnpike]

You wouldn't think they'd need to be too secretive about a refurb

However, what I'm wondering is whether or not these issues might hint that there is something REALLY wrong with it, quality-wise. Like the first time the CPUs hit 100%, they burst into flame and kill my entire extended family, regardless of distance. That would suck.

As for the drive, I tried reseating it a couple times. However, it isn't like the drives I'm used to (screws...)... it mostly just slides into its bay. It locks down from the bottom. I don't know what really there is to do to reposition it, aside from not using the mounts and just letting it sit there...

[reader50]

Is the drive sitting too low? If so, add some electrical tape on the bottom of it, at the contact points, to push it up a hair. Don't cover any ventilation holes.

If the lockup problem is solved, I would not worry about the system in general. The PRAM reset suggests that Apple had to replace a hardware component on this machine - perhaps even the optical drive.

If you can't resolve the optical drive, then holler to Apple for help. You kind of need that drive for software installs and movies. Remember to remove any tape you added before taking it in of course.

[Turnpike]

The drive is actually sitting a bit too high. Tomorrow I'll fiddle with it, see if I can't get the back end up a bit to make the tray come out at a slightly different angle. In fact, that might just be the problem; the drive may be angled a bit so the tray is too high.

Thanks for all the help... I'll work on it first thing in the morning and let you know how it works!

[reader50]

After looking over this PDF that was pointed to from another thread, I'd suggest downloading and reading it. Check the brand of your Superdrive, and see if Apple sent it to you with the wrong standoff screws.

[Turnpike]

Things have not gotten much, much worse.

The computer refuses to even think about booting. I press the button on the front, the fans whir once, then nothing. No chime, doesn't send anything to the monitor, nothing. I tried reseating the RAM, but the same results. I tried with nothing plugged in except the monitor and power... I tried monitor + power + keyboard/mouse... still nada.

I think at this point I pretty much have no choice but to drive in to the Apple Store... is there anything I could do to at least access the hard drive once to get my stuff off of there (yeah I know... it was very stupid of me to have put stuff on there that was important, but I was sure clearing the PRAM had cured it.) There's scholarship info on there, so you can imagine it is pretty important to me. I don't have anything else around that can read SATA drives... unless the drive is backwards compatible with the ATA/66 on my Sawtooth.

I don't know what could have caused things to not boot any more... we had a power surge, but the computer is plugged into a surge protector. Nothing else on the same surge protector was damaged, and the computer itself didn't stop working until the next morning. It stayed up during the night, running SETI@home and curl (downloading UT2k4 demo). It didn't respond this morning.

Only thing I have left is maybe bad RAM? I've got a gig coming still, should be here in a few days via UPS... should I use this RAM to see if all is working, or would that possibly kill my perfectly good RAM or introduce another factor into the equation?

Thanks for any help you can give...




PS: When I reseated the RAM, I moved the optical drive to what I think might be a better angle... haven't had it boot far enough to test yet.

[Groovy]

Originally posted by Turnpike:
Things have not gotten much, much worse.

The computer refuses to even think about booting. I press the button on the front, the fans whir once, then nothing. No chime, doesn't send anything to the monitor, nothing. I tried reseating the RAM, but the same results. I tried with nothing plugged in except the monitor and power... I tried monitor + power + keyboard/mouse... still nada.

Thanks for any help you can give...

Have you had a chance to do a fresh clean install? Apple's installs of the OS
are not as good as they should be so i always format the drive and do a fresh
one.

As for the superdrive make sure apple removed the dust cover on the slide out tray.
If the person who installed the drive forgot, it will hit the case when the tray
pops out. The tray dust cover pops right off.

You really need to run the hardware test cd. If you keep having problems
i say return it. be firm but nice and use the word LEMON. Simply say
You sent me a lemon and I do NOT want this one, send me a different one.
The lemon laws are pretty clear and apple should do it straight up.

good luck

[reader50]

Run a FireWire cable from your Sawtooth to the G5, and boot it in FW Target Disk Mode. Start the Sawtooth up first, then boot the G5 while holding down the 'T' key. The G5's first internal HD should mount on the Sawtooth.

If the boot process can't get that far along, there are SATA to PATA adapters available in computer stores, and they are inexpensive. Apple does not "recommend" using them, which doesn't necessarily mean they don't work, Apple just doesn't recommend them. Try one.

A Reburb is supposed to be Good-As-New, at a lower price. I'd say take it to Apple too, it has a serious problem that makes the system useless. First undo whatever you did to the optical drive, so they can't jump on you about that.

[Turnpike]

I was going to post last night but got a DB error.

it doesn't boot far enough to use firewire target disk mode.

I have a couple more things I'll try before taking it to the Apple store: resetting the PMU (I tried earlier, but I'll try again...) and moving RAM to see if it is a bad RAM slot. Still have to get it fixed, but at least I'd know what the trouble was. I'd replace everything as shipped before taking it to Apple.

I'll look into getting an SATA to PATA adapter... thanks for the tip.

[Turnpike]

Groovy: no, I haven't had a chance to do anything really... since I can't get it to boot in any way, there isn't much I can do on that end. Same with the optical drive tray at the moment... can't get it to open (in the G5 case) without being able to get the computer to respond to even the most basic of inputs.


Here's the question of the day: I'm going to be calling Apple tomorrow. Before I do that, should I try the gig (2x512) of RAM that is supposed to arrive tomorrow? On one hand, I'd like to get the computer up and running ASAP and if that could possibly do it, that'd be stellar... and if it did work, getting new RAM from Apple seems much easier than hauling my computer down there to have the motherboard looked at or some such.

I'm only worried that this might be a problem... is it possible that this could damage my new RAM, making it unusable (and unreturnable)?

[deedar]

Make them take the damn thing back and give you a different one. I bougth the same machine, also refurb, and it wouldn't boot at all. They wanted me to do all kinds of thing - replace video card, zap pram, blah, blah, blah. I made them take it back and simply got a different one - one that works just fine.

You just paid a bunch of money for a com;uter that should work as if it were new. You should not have to fix something that never worked right from the start.

[reader50]

You could try putting in the 3rd party RAM and removing the Apple RAM. If it boots up well, excellent. Make sure it keeps booting up well, without regressing to old habits.

However, I generally agree with deedar. The price of a G5, even a refurb, isn't chump change. You paid good money, and should get a good G5 right out of the box.

[tramahound]

uh, this could be just me, but i'd return that thing but quick! you should be expected to do what the apple certified technicians should be doing or the people who are supposed to repair the refurb unit prior to them being sent to you as supposedly like-new condition. tell them to take that thing back and try again. eventually you should get a good one...

[Turnpike]

Just called Apple... the rep seemed to think it was a power supply issue and told me to take it in to a local mac shop.

Should I be content with letting them fix it up, or should I demand a replacement? It is a refurb, so I don't know if they'd be able to get a replacement... and I wouldn't want one of the new versions of the 1.8... would be nice if they'd give me a new 2.0, but not terribly likely... anyhoo, should I worry about just letting them possibly patch up a shoddy system, or can I assume that if it gets fixed there will be no more problems than if I just got it replaced?

Thanks for all the help and advice

[tramahound]

it could be a sign of more problems down the road. i'm of the thinking that if you have a problem with something you paid a lot of money for do whatever you can to get a different example because later down the road when it completely dies and you try to get some kind of help they won't be as willing or able to help you. complain, ask for a supervisor, complain some more, go on about how un-apple this is etc, that usually goes far. it's not like you're being unreasonable. i doubt anybody you'd be talking to in customer service would be willing to give up $5 of their own money for a faulty product, refurb or not, let alone thousands...the squeeky wheel gets the grease my friend, be squeeky!

[Groovy]

Originally posted by Turnpike:
Just called Apple... the rep seemed to think it was a power supply issue and told me to take it in to a local mac shop.

Should I be content with letting them fix it up, or should I demand a replacement? It is a refurb, so I don't know if they'd be able to get a replacement... and I wouldn't want one of the new versions of the 1.8... would be nice if they'd give me a new 2.0, but not terribly likely... anyhoo, should I worry about just letting them possibly patch up a shoddy system, or can I assume that if it gets fixed there will be no more problems than if I just got it replaced?

Thanks for all the help and advice

replace it. do what I said above in my other post. . it works when you yell LEMON.

[Turnpike]

Update:

I took it in to the Apple store yesterday. The genius there reproduced the error. He said it was likely the PSU, the motherboard, or possibly the switch (I have ruled out the switch).

Got a call today from Apple saying they'd fixed the optical drive tray issue and that it is fairly common. They looked at the rest of my service order and saw "no power won't boot". They were surprised, because it was booting just fine. This, under the exact same conditions the Apple Genius had when it would not boot for him.

I'm going down there again (this is really piling up the gas bill) today to see if it does, indeed boot just fine. I suppose if it works just fine, I'll bring it home and be satisfied... but if anything else seems funky in the next year, I'll be quick to bring it in to have it examined.


Thanks again for the technical and personal support. Hopefully it will have been like a bad dream, and I will have my baby home and running perfectly tonight.

[Turnpike]

Well, it is definitely a power supply issue. Got it home today and it still won't work. I figure if it didn't work in my room or at the Genius Bar but did work in the tech's room, maybe it was an issue with the outlet. So, I ran an extension cord from my room to a different circuit in the house. It booted, but not very well.

First boot, it came up, I was happy to see it yet annoyed that I had driven 1.5 hours each way to pick up a computer that wasn't working properly. I sat there, staring at the login screen. Nothing was plugged in at this point except the monitor. The fans start speeding up, so I reach down and plug in my keyboard and mouse. The mouse won't move. Frozen.

I decided I don't want to bother with it. It worked when it got here. It should be able to work on the circuit in my room. There's nothing wrong with the circuit. Everything else works. The only things on the circuit when I tested were the computer, the monitor, and the overhead lights (3x100W).

I plugged in the 6pin/6pin FW cable from my external CD-RW to the G5 and my Sawtooth. Managed to boot the G5 into target disk mode. Got off all my important stuff (there wasn't much on there... a few letters, an application, and some misc. other documents and scholarship info). I even checked to make sure my music folder is empty of songs with possibly dubious legality.

I'm going to take it back to them tomorrow and tell them it is definitely the power supply, and they NEED to replace it. Taking the advice others have given here, I'll slip the words "lemon" and "not apple-like" into conversation. Maybe I'll come up with some witty fruit-related puns I can use as I drive down there tomorrow.


Maybe if I press them enough, they'll compensate me for my time, gas, miles on my car and frustration by upgrading me to the rev.b dual 2.0 or giving me a free iTrip or something. I have to hope something good can come of this

[tramahound]

good to hear. you were a much better sport than I would have been. I would have been on the phone the first day. They should kiss your feet for being so understanding. If they still give you grief say something about how you doubt people have to go through all this trouble with Dell, and that maybe you'd find out (that's not true, i work for a reseller and dealing with dell is like Dante's Inferno compared to Apple, but come on, it can't hurt...). They really should not expect you to go through any more hardships with one of their products. I would hope they'd try to set you up with something new or a gift card or something!
good luck and report back!

[Groovy]

Originally posted by Turnpike:


I'm going to take it back to them tomorrow and tell them it is definitely the power supply, and they NEED to replace it. Taking the advice others have given here, I'll slip the words "lemon" and "not apple-like" into conversation. Maybe I'll come up with some witty fruit-related puns I can use as I drive down there tomorrow.

Are your outlets grounded? they NEED to be grounded (don't just assume
they are even with if you have 3 prong outlets so check to make sure) else
most macs (PCs) will have funky problems. I also suggest you get a UPS.
It cleans the power with automatic Voltage Regulation and Controls over-voltages,
blackouts and brownouts. If i lose power due to a storm my system keeps going
for about 1 hour. (G5 with 21" monitor and cable modem and router all plugged in the UPS)

I use this one and it works great.

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/1500AVR-HO.htm



As for LEMOM you are supposed to be funny. When I used it
I said, "I ordered an apple but you sent me a lemon"

I then asked for a different one and that is what I got instantly.

[Nacente]

A friend has a problem with a 1.6

[Turnpike]

Yes, the outlets are grounded. I have thought of getting a UPS, though... it'd be nice to have the security of being able to save and shutdown properly if the power goes out. Still, I shouldn't HAVE to get a UPS just to use the computer.

Thanks for all the support, I'm taking it in now... I'll tell you guys what happens when I get back.

Nacente: I hope the problem with the 1.6 gets taken care of a little more cleanly than my problem. Good luck to you and your friend.

[Turnpike]

Nothing exciting. Traffic was bad, took me two hours to get there. Got it in the store, talked to yet another person, wasn't able to talk to anyone who had helped me before. Told them the issue, told them it had already been in and out without the problem getting solved. He seemed to recognize the machine and the fact it had been in. He was able to reproduce the problem again at the Genius Bar. He wrote up a new repair order and wrote in very large black letter "REPEAT REPAIR". Hopefully that means they'll make it a priority. However, I didn't seem to be able to drill it into his brain that it wasn't an "intermittent" problem... that it happened depending on where it is plugged in. I did, however write this on the form, and I specifically told him that if they couldn't reproduce it that they should bring it to the Genius Bar and try it, because it has failed 100% of the time there.

This guy seemed to indicate that it could have been a graphics card issue. He didn't think that was likely though... but it is something fast to check and easy to replace, so I suppose I hope it is that. I'm terribly afraid it is the power supply, however, which means it could be a while in repair... they might not have any replacement power supplies handy. (I think the G5s all use the same 600W PSU, don't they? Couldn't they just strip one from another machine? probably not, but it is good to hope...)

Hopefully the next couple days will bring good news.

[Turnpike]

UPDATE (sadly, not the last...)


Got it back today. They replaced the motherboard. Said it was probably a problem with the connection from the PSU to the motherboard, but they weren't sure. They had graciously tested it at the Genius Bar as per my request. Not wanting to go there again, I tested it there, too. Everything seemed fine. Seemed a little noisy, but the whole store was noisy (very busy and somebody trying some of those portable iPod speakers).

Got it home, plugged it all in. This took a while, since all of my computer stuff had been moved (just got home from a LAN... very sad LAN using a Sawtooth when I have already shelled out the cash for a G5).

Booted just fine. Unfortunately, it sounded like a pair of jets taking off. About halfway through the boot process, it quieted down, but it is still loud enough that normal conversation is completely impossible in the room. This is what I had thought "full blast" was before. I know a guy who sets a household exhaust fan next to his PC for cooling, and even it is quieter.

I'm going to go search the forums again for more help. Thanks, if you have any ideas.

[Turnpike]

well, thank God for Apple's complete lack of double-checking, I suppose.

They left a dual-boot Apple System Diagnostics CD in my drive. I booted from it (it uses open firmware if you boot with the 'C' key). On launch, it said the thermal sensor on CPU1 wasn't calibrated. It then proceeded to calibrate it.

Ran the rest of the tests, just to be sure.

Problem solved.



Was I supposed to have received one of these disks with my G5? or are they freely available? It seems to me, this would be indispensable as a troubleshooting tool...

anyway, I'm going to call the Apple store tomorrow and complain. I shouldn't have had to do this... they should have noticed that the fans were running full-blast (unless they do all their testing in the noisy front of the store), and all it took to fix it was to boot from the CD that they had even already put in my drive. I'm assuming they ran the tests before they replaced the motherboard, and forgot about it...still, they should have run it, you'd think, after installing a new motherboard...


Anyway, I hope this saga has come to an end...

I would really like to know whether I was supposed to have this CD before or not...

[msuper69]

Originally posted by Turnpike:
...
They left a dual-boot Apple System Diagnostics CD in my drive. I booted from it (it uses open firmware if you boot with the 'C' key).

...

Was I supposed to have received one of these disks with my G5? or are they freely available? It seems to me, this would be indispensable as a troubleshooting tool...

...

I would really like to know whether I was supposed to have this CD before or not...

The last time I sent my TiBook to Apple they returned it (like new, BTW) with an advanced diagnostic CD in the combo drive.

Hmmmm, thank you Apple! I'm keeping it as trying to return it would be more trouble than it's worth. If they want it back, I will gladly return it upon receipt of a postage-paid envelope.

Just keep the CD and hope you never have to use it.

[reader50]

There is no normal way for a customer to obtain one of Apple's internal diagnostic/repair CDs. Keep quiet and accept the gift, it's priceless.

[Turnpike]

Well, I might be calling Apple back anyway (I will not tell them about the CD...)


I went to install the RAM I ordered, since everything seemed to be working just fine after restarts and large file transfers and installing software (XCode 1.5.... it was a large enough installer to convince me). As soon as I pulled the fan assembly out, there was a sound like a case screw hitting the bottom of the third cooling zone. If I tilt the entire G5, I can hear a little rattle sometimes. Is this something I should worry about?

[reader50]

If it were mine, I'd have it all apart until I could find the (possible) loose screw. Of course, I'm a tech geek, and have not spent the last couple weeks getting my new computer to run reliably. It's your call.

[Turnpike]

if it were a PC, I'd have no qualms about tearing it apart to look for something... but most PCs don't have such proprietary design/parts or a warranty. Are there any sites that give quick tips on the best/safest ways to access different parts of a G5?

[Turnpike]

Looks like it is back to the Apple Store for me...

I've had several strange crashes. I thought this was very strange (my Sawtooth with almost identical software is rock-solid). Groovy's post above indicates that Apple installs of the OS are sometimes very poor, so I was planning on reinstalling, just to get things cleaned up.

Of course, I procrastinated, since I just wanted to USE the computer, not fix it (else I'd have a PC, right?). Well, today, I got a hard crash that spit out information to the screen. It looked like open firmware, or the command line when logging in as >console. white text on a black background. It only drew over where new text was written. Everywhere else I could see the desktop and open windows as they were when the machine up and died.

Anyway, most of the information was about the kernel version and such, but the most interesting stuff was about a stack failure. CPU 1, from what I could understand, seems to be bad.

Looks like I should make a list of problems I've had with this computer, and take it in again.


Another issue I had that I haven't posted about here... once, when starting up, I got a long, clear beep before the startup chime. It sounded like feedback or something, except it started and ended cleanly. Much like it should do if it doesn't find any good RAM. However, it then proceeded to boot normally, and it recognized all of my RAM. In fact, there was hardly even a delay in startup time except that needed to play the beep before the startup chime.

Apple owes me a new computer, and about 3 weeks of my life back. If you count the time I was able to repair it only because they messed up as another repair it would have needed, this would be repair number four in about 3 weeks. I know Apple QA has been sucking recently, but this is just ridiculous.



Questions: should I mention the fact I used their CD to fix a problem it shipped with? on one hand, I'd like them to know just how badly they have screwed up and how consistently they have sucked. On the other hand, I don't want them to dismiss the problems as my fault for using their CD. I duplicated it, so if they demand it back, it isn't a problem. Also, should I mention my additional RAM? It very well could be the cause for strange beep I heard, but I definitely trust it more than I trust the rest of the computer or the Apple techs. My thought is that I might be able to not mention it and have them just give me a completely new machine. If that happens and I get the strange beeping with a new one, I could be sure it is the RAM's fault, and not the fault of some part Apple decided to not replace because it looked okay when they glanced at it.

Any other advice? If I do try to get a replacement, what should I do with the hard drive? I've heard stories of people buying refurb machines and getting hard drives with personal info on it. I don't think I have anything that could be used to hurt me (credit info, et cetera) on here, but should I format the drive to be safe? Should I not format, but demand that the techs do it if they are getting me a replacement? If that happens, can I trust the techs? If I don't have credit info on here, should I just not worry about whatever else might be able to be recovered off the hard drive?

Thanks in advance... again...



EDIT: I'll be running the hardware test from the install DVD now. I'll report back with results. I might run the Apple System Diagnostics disc again, too, but I'll wait on that for now.

[tungtied07]

Hey,
I'm very sorry for all the troubles. Let us know the results!

By the way, have you tried to reset the PRAM again? Could you try to reinstall the OS with a fresh new install formatted? Also, if you can try to go to the open firmware and do the reset-all command.

By the way, does anyone know if the G5 have the PMU button? (the red button)
If it does, open up the G5, push it, and try again.

[reader50]

The text-written-over-screen indicates a kernel panic - a crash. KPs are sometimes caused by software, sometimes by hardware. Do the clean OS install, push the CUDA reset button on the motherboard, then boot up and set prefs like the current time, and the startup disk.

Afterwards, do a permissions repair, then run the normal hardware test CD. If it passes, run the Apple diagnostic CD.

If it fails either diagnostic CD, take it back to Apple. Don't mention the special Apple CD, it would just be a reason they could use to void the warranty. I don't think they would do that, but on the other hand, I don't see anything you would gain by providing that info. The Genius may disagree, if he/she asks questions that lead to the CD, tell the truth. They may see something we are missing, and may need to know that you did the thermal calibration that they should have done.

Your call on the RAM; if it's bad, the Genius should be able to determine that. There is a good chance your diagnostic CDs will also.

The clean OS install will give you the chance to check over the HD for personal info to delete. If you do a reformat with the zero-all-blocks option, the HD will definitely be wiped. If you can't boot up far enough to look over/format the HD, ask the Apple techs to wipe it for you.

[Turnpike]

Okay, it boots just fine, so that isn't a problem... it just crashes when I stress the CPU (play multiple movies, lots of units in Warcraft III... haven't been running SETI or fah since I got it back, but I could see if that crashes it, too).

I was under the impression that the multi-lingual error message asking you to restart was a kernel panic. I've seen that one a few times (maybe 3 or 4... had a bad hard disk, and once at a LAN for who-knows-what-reason) with my Sawtooth, but never on this machine. What's the difference between the crashes?

If the OS could be the problem, I will reinstall. Would I be correct in assuming a complete format of the HD would be in order, just to get it as clean as possible? All my important stuff is backed up, so it shouldn't be a problem.

The Hardware Test CD didn't find anything wrong with the RAM or anything else, but it didn't seem to test the CPUs. I'll run the ASD CD now and see if it finds any problems with the CPU or RAM.

[Turnpike]

Another question: is the front firewire port supposed to "wobble"? Every other firewire port I've used has seemed firm. The one in the back of the G5 is actually so tight that I broke the white casing on my firewire iPod Dock connector trying to remove it once. However, whenever I plug anything in to the front Firewire port on the G5, the plug seems to only go about half way in, and just slight contact with anything causes a decently large side-to-side wobble.

Is this normal? It just feels so cheap compared to the others. If it is supposed to be this way, fine, but I don't want it to die on me, too...



Ran the Apple Service Diagnostics CD, no issue with the RAM or CPU... I guess I'm going to reformat and reinstall.

[Al G]

I don't think the crash with the spewing of kernel error text on top of the GUI is technically called a kernel panic, maybe a kernel exception, but anyway it's all semantics. It's bad and certainly a less graceful kaboom than the standard KP.

I have a refurb that shipped with bad factory RAM. It would do the same thing as yours, both KPs and kernel exceptions. The extended Hardware Test never found a problem. Actually, HT was pretty much useless unless for some strange reason you needed to annoy the hell out of yourself by generating a bunch of noise.

Anyway, when I pulled the factory RAM and replaced it with some third party RAM the problems went away. Put the factory RAM back in and the problems returned. Apple sent replacement RAM (a CIP kit direct to me--no need to drag it in for service) and it's been fine* since.

So it could very well be a bad processor or logic board but don't rule out bad RAM even if the Hardware Test doesn't find anything. The question is whether you want to mess with the troubleshooting yourself or not. Since it's a refurb, Apple had two chances to get it right and didn't.

* It still has a plethora of fan noise problems but that's an entirely different story.

[Turnpike]

That's no good, Al. Maybe I'll try swapping out different combinations of RAM soon.

as for this being Apple's second chance to get this right... I've taken it back twice, plus the refurb check... and I have to think that it was sent back to Apple because it was DOA and they just replaced one bad component, not all of them. If they didn't get it right when it originally shipped, that would be 4 chances already...

Anyway, I trust my troubleshooting and the troubleshooting of the people on this board far more than I trust Apple's techs, at this point.

[Turnpike]

ach, double post, sorry

[Turnpike]

I got another kernel panic/exception today with a freshly installed OS. I'm now trying it with different RAM configurations. Hopefully I'll have the problem found by tonight so I can either take it to Apple or get new RAM for it tomorrow

[Turnpike]

Okay, I tested more thoroughly than absolutely necessary, it seems...


Tried with just the Apple RAM. No problems whatsoever. Ran both seti and fah all night, opened up illustrator and photoshop simultaneously with large documents, gaussian blur to large document, and tried a couple games I knew had crashed before (WC3:TFT and UT2k4 demo) as well as some other things. Everything worked well. (yes, I know some of this testing was probably more stressful on the CPU or disk, but I felt like doing it.)

Figured it must have been the 3rd party RAM. Was going to call and ask for replacement (they claim a lifetime warranty, so I figure I'm safe... no need to hurry this). Put in the 3rd party RAM just for kicks, to see how long it'd last. It seemed to be just as stable as the Apple RAM. Plus, since there is more of it, the system was happier. No easy solution for me, it seems...

but wait! maybe it was just seated incorrectly! That could be it...! Put it all in at once... launched CoD... got a crash simply walking across a room. I have yet to see a kernel exception when in full screen mode of any game... is it possible the graphics card handles this improperly and writes the message below the game? UT2k4 crashes even more quickly. Haven't bothered with any more testing...

I took out the 3rd party RAM and, for kicks, put it in the 3rd slots from the center. Still crashes. However, the RAM was recognized...



So, is this most likely the fault of a bad slot on the motherboard? That is what I had thought, until the computer crashed with RAM in slots 1 and 3... perhaps the bus itself is somehow screwed, and large amounts of RAM overload it somehow? I'm taking it in tomorrow (today, technically), but I would like your opinions on it before I show up at the Apple Store...


Thanks a ton.

[reader50]

Sounds like bad RAM, bad motherboard, or a bad graphics card. Do the latest crashes happen *only* in games? The games crash when all RAM is installed. Do the games crash with just the Apple RAM, or with just the 3rd party RAM installed?

I'm told the ADCD can loop it's RAM test, so it can be left running continuously overnight for an extended test.

[tsheley]

I had the same thing happen with my refurb 1.6 ghz. Once I mixed the Apple RAM and some RAM from Data Memory Systems everything froze and I got kernel panics. If I just ran with Apple RAM or just the third party RAM everything was fine.

I called AppleCare and they told me my third party RAM was bad and there was nothing they could do. Actually the tech was very rude about it. He told me to shut up and that the third party RAM was bad not the Apple. I asked to speak to Customer relations and they agreed with me that the Apple RAM was the problem and as an apology they sent me out a free 1GB of RAM since the tech was so rude.

Once the 1GB of RAM arrived I put it in with my third party memory and have not had a problem since.

So the don't let Apple push you around. I think they got a bad batch or RAM.

[Turnpike]

Originally posted by reader50:
Sounds like bad RAM, bad motherboard, or a bad graphics card. Do the latest crashes happen *only* in games? The games crash when all RAM is installed. Do the games crash with just the Apple RAM, or with just the 3rd party RAM installed?

I'm told the ADCD can loop it's RAM test, so it can be left running continuously overnight for an extended test.

No, the crashes aren't only in games... those are just the easiest for me to reproduce.

Things crash ONLY when ALL of it is in. If just Apple or just 3rd party is in, the system seems rock-solid.





tsheley: if only the mixed RAM causes problems, how could you tell which RAM was bad?

hopefully my experience with the Apple techs will be a bit better, due to the repeated repairs on this machine.

[tsheley]

Actually got 2 more sticks from work to test with and when I put them in with my third party RAM everything was fine. When I put the 2 sticks with the Apple RAM same problems all over again. So I figured if 4 sticks of third party RAM worked fine it had to be the Apple RAM.

[reader50]

A further thought. If you are sure it's the RAM incompatibility, then don't let them change anything else. It sounds to me like the last problem has been identified, and your system is stable except for a pair of RAM sticks - probably the OEM sticks.

Ideally, get them to mail you a replacement pair. Or take it in (again), and let them confirm things themselves - then change the RAM. If they want to keep your G5 for further testing, they might just decide to switch some other component.

Don't give them the opportunity. You have over three weeks invested in getting the system stable, a system you will hopefully be happy with. If need be, buy another pair of RAM sticks yourself and eat the cost - minor compared to the value of your time getting it stable so far. Possibly less costly than even one more round trip to the Apple Store, depending on the value of your time.

Don't let an eager tech decide it's the power supply after all, and put you back on the troubleshooting road again.

[Turnpike]

reader50: no, I was actually leaning towards it being a motherboard problem.


So, an update.

They tested it, and supposedly all the RAM was good.. so they ordered a replacement mother board. It came in on Thursday, DOA. They called and told me it'd be until Monday until they could get another one (number 4 for this machine).

Of course, the problem is that I had to move into my dorm (early Sunday). No good. Got the computer back from the Apple Store on Friday. I took out the RAM and put it in spare anti-static bags I have around (the guys at Apple kept the ones that came with the RAM, of course). I've got my Sawtooth here at college, and my parents are going to send back the G5. Basically, they are taking care of it now, because I don't have that leisure any more. Apple wasted my month, so I can't do anything more with it.

Supposedly, the guys at the store can't take back a machine, but they can "recommend" it get replaced. That's what they are doing. My parents agree (and so do the guys at the store) that I shouldn't have to deal with this machine ever again, so hopefully I'll have a new one in a few weeks. If they just "fix" it and send it back, I'll probably just pretend its broken and have them send a new one. I can't put up with this crap any longer.


Thanks for the advice, I'll update all y'all again when something else happens.