Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

oni · Aug 21, 2004, 07:10 PM

Hi,

I recently bought a G5 dp1.8 with the radeon 9600XT card.
I downloaded the mac bidouille toolkit which displays the clock speed of the GPU's core and memory and it shows that the card is only running at 400MHz.
The XT by my research should be running at 500MHz, is Apple jipping us out of an XT card or is it just my card?

ps could owners of the previous G5's with the 9600 pro and those with the xt version please test their cards?

d.fine · Aug 22, 2004, 04:40 AM

Here's mine : Rev B DP 2.0GHz ... 9600 XT

oni · Aug 23, 2004, 04:23 AM

so basiclly apple is passing off less than a radeon 9600 pro as an XT? My flatmates radeon 9600 pro has 400MHz clock and 400MHz memory. The XT should be higher even than this from what i've read.

Is anyone else pissed off about this?

d.fine · Aug 23, 2004, 05:23 AM

Can you provide a link where the XT's clock speeds are discussed ? I haven't heard of this, I'd like to be more informed ...

oni · Aug 23, 2004, 06:08 AM

here is one link I have found which shows that the XT should have a 500Mhz core clock and a 600MHz memory clock

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon96...o/compare.html

I have found some review sites that support this but these are PC review sites.

And my other source is my flatmates radeon 9600 pro which has a core of 400MHz and memory of 400MHz althoguh it is a PC version.
This is what got me interested in the first place as I seem to have worse game performance than him even though I have a "superior" card.

d.fine · Aug 23, 2004, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by oni:
here is one link I have found which shows that the XT should have a 500Mhz core clock and a 600MHz memory clock

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon96...o/compare.html

I have found some review sites that support this but these are PC review sites.

And my other source is my flatmates radeon 9600 pro which has a core of 400MHz and memory of 400MHz althoguh it is a PC version.
This is what got me interested in the first place as I seem to have worse game performance than him even though I have a "superior" card.

Those are the specs of the PC version of that card. On the Ati website I can not find any specs of the Radeon 9600XT Mac Edition ...

videian28 · Aug 23, 2004, 07:44 AM

you would think that they should be exactly the same as far as stats, just different tweaks to make them work on different computer systems (ie...different ROM or power interfaces) the stated performance parts should be exactly the same if they are calling it the same as our PC version counterpart

that's a load of bull if they did this

Luca Rescigno · Aug 23, 2004, 08:14 AM

Are you sure that you're comparing the memory clock correctly? Because a lot of the time, the manufacturer/reseller/whoever will list the DDR memory clock, which is twice as large. As long as everyone's consistent it's fine. So, the GeForce 6800 has a purported 1100 MHz memory clock, but it's actually DDR running at 550 MHz, and doubled.

I am guessing it is running at 400/620. The 9600XTs I've seen on NewEgg almost all run at 500/600, some of which go up to 550/680. On the other hand, I believe the 9600XT in the G5s is fanless, while all the 9600XTs available for PCs have a fan on them.

Man, ATI always pulls this crap though. The Radeon 8500 Mac Edition was running at 250/270, versus the PC version which was PHYSICALLY IDENTICAL to the Mac version and ran at 270/270. I don't really see what they have to gain by cheating Mac users out of 100 MHz of core clock speed, especially since Mac users aren't directly buying the card anyway. I wonder if there's a way to overclock it via software? I know I was able to when I had a Radeon 8500. Got my flashed version up to 275/275.

SafariX · Aug 23, 2004, 10:14 AM

Personally I think this is bullsh1t. If I wanted a "Pro" I would have paid for that. I paid for an XT, and envisioned getting similar ratings to the PC version. The memory speed seems fine (620 DDR), but the core speed 20% slower is quite upsetting. Anyone with a G5 9600 "Pro" that can report their speeds?

a2daj · Aug 23, 2004, 10:45 AM

How does that software know at what speed the GPU and Memory are running? Does it check some registers on the card? Does it read directly from the ROM? Or does it have a database that just needs to be updated with the XT information? IOW, are you certain the app is accurate?
Now FYI in regards to the OEM parts, if the slower clock rate is true, it's because Apple orders GPUs at that speed. They've been known to order slower clock speeds for their video cards, probably to save a buck or two.

videian28 · Aug 23, 2004, 10:53 AM

then don't advertise it as something it's not

videian28 · Aug 23, 2004, 10:55 AM

the more I think about this, the more I think something is wrong, and it's not Apple...if it was this is like a huge lawsuit waiting to happen

I have heard that they underclock thier mobile graphics chips to save battery...but if above it true it was purely a money saving scheme and false advertising

but I just don't see it

a2daj · Aug 23, 2004, 11:47 AM

Do the PC 9600 XTs have passive cooling solutions or do most of them have fans? Just curious.

I know the Mac 9600 XT has a passive cooling solution so I can see where they might clock down the card for heat issues but who knows.

rocky2 · Aug 23, 2004, 04:29 PM

Use ATIccelerator downloaded from web to upclock the GPU core and RAM frequencies to what you expect from the PC version and see what happens!
The best way is get a dump (ATI Multi Dumper app) of the ROM .bin file and then use the ATIccelerator app to change the settings and then reload the new .bin file into the ROM and see the effect. Be VERY conservative with each step up in speeds. Keep incremental copies of each bin file so you can go back easily. The ROM flashing is said to work under OS9 only but I did it on a PC in DOS using the flashrom utility and it was painless.

Lateralus · Aug 23, 2004, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
250/270 ... 270/270.

250/275 - 275/275*

rocky2 · Aug 23, 2004, 06:25 PM

Go to this page at ATI and select the cards you want to compare and clock next at the page bottom.

http://apps.ati.com/ATIcompare/

It does indicate that the 9600 XT on the PC is 500 MHz for core speed and 300 for RAM (but DDR so actually 600 MHz).

In which case, you might able to use ATIccelerator to upclock the core frequency to 500 MHz. Make sure you have really good cooling though.

I am interested because I modified a PC 9800 PRO to a Mac 9800 PRO and the GPU and RAM parameters in the ROM .bin files for the PC and Mac are identical.

happymac128 · Aug 23, 2004, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
I believe the 9600XT in the G5s is fanless, while all the 9600XTs available for PCs have a fan on them.

Luca, they have fanless 9600XTs at full clockspeed for PC. They even have 9800 Pros with passive cooling. And, even as you stated, ATi is notorious for screwing Macs with hardware. DDR isn't measured in full DDR speed most of the time; most of the time it is displayed with the SDR value x2, i.e. 475x2 or 200x2 for FSB.

Nick

a2daj · Aug 23, 2004, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by happymac128:
Luca, they have fanless 9600XTs at full clockspeed for PC. They even have 9800 Pros with passive cooling. And, even as you stated, ATi is notorious for screwing Macs with hardware. DDR isn't measured in full DDR speed most of the time; most of the time it is displayed with the SDR value x2, i.e. 475x2 or 200x2 for FSB.

Nick

The few fanless solutions I've seen for the 9600 XTs have been rather large and cumbersome.

Since the 9600 XT is an OEM part, it's Apple who requests cards with certain specifications, so you can't blame ATI if the card is underclocked. If you want to blame anyone, it's Apple.

SafariX · Aug 23, 2004, 09:05 PM

Anyone with a 9600 *Pro* that can report clockspeeds?

Lateralus · Aug 23, 2004, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by SafariX:
Anyone with a 9600 *Pro* that can report clockspeeds?

Core: 365MHz
Memory: 295MHz

macaddict0001 · Aug 24, 2004, 01:04 AM

odd the mac card is not on their site.

a2daj · Aug 24, 2004, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
odd the mac card is not on their site.

Are you talking about the ATI Compare page? That's because the Mac cards listed are all the retail versions. Since there's no retail 9600 class card, it's not listed.

DeathMan · Aug 24, 2004, 02:29 PM

CPUs, GPUs, Mhz are always slower on the Mac. What's up with that?

oni · Aug 26, 2004, 04:44 PM

So is there any way to find out if this card is an underclocked XT, if so anyone game to add some extra cooling to their card and clock it to its correct speed?

Nacente · Aug 26, 2004, 04:48 PM

Not sure

a2daj · Aug 27, 2004, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by oni:
So is there any way to find out if this card is an underclocked XT, if so anyone game to add some extra cooling to their card and clock it to its correct speed?

I say yes. Add better cooling and you should be able to running it faster if it is indeed running at 400 MHz. Assuming the chips are underclocked and not just slower rated chips, then the card can probably run at 500 MHz safely

If someone can confirm how the Toolkit app figures out the clock speed we should be able to verify whether or not that is the correct reading.

videian28 · Aug 27, 2004, 06:19 AM

is there an app somewhere to overclock it?

rocky2 · Aug 27, 2004, 06:23 AM

Read my post half way back up this thread. ATIccelerator/

rocky2 · Aug 30, 2004, 04:48 PM

You can now use ATIccelerator II to overclock the GPU core frequency and RAM frequency separately on the fly under Mac OS X 10.3. Kudos to Thomas Perrier and friends.

Read the Read Me about the dangers of over-ambitious overclocking.

Lateralus · Aug 30, 2004, 05:12 PM

I currently have my 9600 Pro running @ 400/310, no problems. I haven't tried higher clocks yet.

d.fine · Aug 31, 2004, 09:07 AM

Anyone in here try this ?

Lateralus · Sep 1, 2004, 09:08 PM

I have pushed my OC further after reading that the PC 9600 Pro ships at much higher clocks.

I am currently running at 460/360, up from 365/295. Quite an overclock.

a2daj · Sep 2, 2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
I have pushed my OC further after reading that the PC 9600 Pro ships at much higher clocks.

I am currently running at 460/360, up from 365/295. Quite an overclock.

Do you have any way to monitor temperature inside your case? I'd be interested in how much more heat the card produces at those higher speeds.

Spliffdaddy · 11:50 AM

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...v-power_9.html

Something around 25watts under full load.

Not anything to be concerned about.

PS, note the blazing 75watt GeForce heatmonsters shown in that link.

You should be more concerned with the heat output of the DDR400 RAM. 2GB (512 MB X 4) = approx 35watts.

a2daj · Sep 2, 2004, 05:24 PM

The Mac 9600 XT has a fanless heatsink. PC 9600 XTs typically have fans. Those that don't have rather larget heatsinks. Overclocking the card will produce more heat. PowerMacMan has an upgraded Quicksilver, which do not have the greatest case designs in terms of airflow (I have one too). So the increase in temperature may be an issue for some. Providing a better cooling system may allow people to clock even higher while maintaining a stable system.

Lateralus · Sep 2, 2004, 05:59 PM

Yeah, which is why I did the ATX conversion. I've got three 80mm fans that push a total of around 100 cubic feet of air per minute, so cooling is no longer a concern. I maintained around 85 degrees inside the case before the overclock and the video card doesn't put out enough heat to effect the temperature with as much airflow as I have.

Amacapart · Sep 13, 2004, 09:55 PM

Use ATIccellerator II to check your XT speeds. It reads directly from system registers, not a database of stored values.

Question of whether it is "real" is answered simply:

9600 Pro = RV350 = "Simone" = Dev id 4150

9600 XT = RV360 = "Whelk" = Dev id 4152

Different chip, different dev id.

Just took a look in "Simone" ROM Clocked at 295/365 stock.

You can EAASILY add a fan by bridging R551 and soldering 2 pins at JU1. Holes on card line up with standard PC card fans.

If you aren't happy with your 9600 XT, I have a Radeon 9700 (flashed) I would trade. Is DVI & VGA.

With TWICE the rendering pipelines, should kick the 9600 XT's butt.

dp

[APi]TheMan · Sep 15, 2004, 10:25 AM

What I heard is that you can softmod the 9600XTs up to 16 pipelines like the 9800 Pro, but that's on the PC side

klinux · Sep 16, 2004, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
What I heard is that you can softmod the 9600XTs up to 16 pipelines like the 9800 Pro, but that's on the PC side

I have the 9600XT (PC version) which has 4 pixel pipeline and have yet to hear anything that allows you to somehow add 12 pipelines that physically do not exist on the board.

Oh, any by the way, 9800 Pro has only 8 pipelines, not 16.

powertrippin · Apr 18, 2005, 05:22 PM

Is there a way to tell the difference between a pro and an XT by looking at the card?

Amacapart · Apr 18, 2005, 09:13 PM

The four extra RAM chips on back in place of empty holes would be easiest to spot.

powertrippin · Apr 18, 2005, 10:29 PM

True. What if you can only see the front of the card? Any little hint that would let you know?

Amacapart · Apr 19, 2005, 11:18 AM

Yes, in upper right corner of PCB there is white silk-screened printing on Pro, the XT has this area clear, so it is solid blue.

Go look on EBay for examples.

powertrippin · Apr 19, 2005, 06:04 PM

Gracias. Thank you.