[Minch_Yoda]

i was planning on getting a g5 imac it seem good if not great for my needs except for the graphics card
i was planning on getting one around christmas but i was wondering is there a chance they could add a better bto gfx card if not how meny months after christmas would be a realistic estimate for a rev b of this imac
another question that might make me chnge my mind on waiting for a new one is how willl doom3 run on this and what would a comparable pc rig be to this imac so i can see estimated frame rates ect of it on the imac
i want to use core image/video and motion and tiger when realeased how will this imac handle those

[deboerjo]

Originally posted by Minch_Yoda:
i was planning on getting a g5 imac it seem good if not great for my needs except for the graphics card
i was planning on getting one around christmas but i was wondering is there a chance they could add a better bto gfx card if not how meny months after christmas would be a realistic estimate for a rev b of this imac
another question that might make me chnge my mind on waiting for a new one is how willl doom3 run on this and what would a comparable pc rig be to this imac so i can see estimated frame rates ect of it on the imac
i want to use core image/video and motion and tiger when realeased how will this imac handle those

Based on benchmarks and tests I've seen of PCs, a GeForceFX 5200 will handle Doom3 acceptably (over 30fps most of the time) provided you take the texture quality all they way down to the lowest setting and run at 640x480 with no special effects turned on.

You're probably not going to see better graphics on these things for a good long while, at least 6 months. If you really want better graphics, bite the bullet and get a G5 tower.

-Jon

[Landos Mustache]

When did Doom 3 ship for mac?

[deboerjo]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
When did Doom 3 ship for mac?

It hasn't yet.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally posted by deboerjo:
It hasn't yet.

And when is it?

[deboerjo]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
And when is it?

I'd say not for a while. We'll be seeing the Linux version first.

-Jon

[Commodus]

i was planning on getting one around christmas but i was wondering is there a chance they could add a better bto gfx card if not how meny months after christmas would be a realistic estimate for a rev b of this imac

First things first... use punctuation, please! It makes things easier to read.

As far as this question, Apple just won't be upgrading the video chipset on the iMac G5 in the near future. Apple's computer revisions tend to be at least 6 months apart, so you'd be looking at March at the earliest (and quite possibly later) for a rev B.

another question that might make me chnge my mind on waiting for a new one is how willl doom3 run on this and what would a comparable pc rig be to this imac so i can see estimated frame rates ect of it on the imac

Doom 3 will run, and you don't necessarily have to turn all the effects off - but I'd probably be sticking to 640x480 medium detail at most. The closest comparison system on the Intel/AMD side is a Pentium 4 around 2.6 GHz with a 533 MHz system bus.

i want to use core image/video and motion and tiger when realeased how will this imac handle those

For those, it should be just fine. The only possible problem I cank think of would be if you really pushed Motion hard (several layers being previewed in real-time all at once).

[Eug Wanker]

Based on benchmarks and tests I've seen of PCs, a GeForceFX 5200 will handle Doom3 acceptably (over 30fps most of the time) provided you take the texture quality all they way down to the lowest setting and run at 640x480 with no special effects turned on.

Based on benchmarks and tests I've seen on PCs, a GeForce FX 5200 Ultra is terrible with Doom3 at 800x600, and that's with much faster CPUs (ie. > 3 GHz P4s). (I dunno if I'd want to play it at 640x480.) Furthermore, John Cormack has hinted that the performance is worse on the Mac (but we all knew that anyway).

You're probably not going to see better graphics on these things for a good long while, at least 6 months. If you really want better graphics, bite the bullet and get a G5 tower.

Well, Doom3 probably won't be out until not too long before the rev. B G5 iMac anyway. ie. If Doom3 is a consideration, it may just pay to wait until spring. By that time, the G5 iMac might have both a faster CPU and a faster GPU. It still won't be great at Doom3, but it will be less painful than with a GeForce FX 5200 Ultra.

The only possible problem I cank think of would be if you really pushed Motion hard (several layers being previewed in real-time all at once).

Single processor desktop benches (smaller is better):

G5 1.6 GeForce FX 5200 Ultra - 87
G5 2.0 (one CPU disabled) Radeon 9800 SE - 35

However, these are not the same CPU. So let's compare two dual CPU machines with the same CPUs but with different GPUs:

G5 dual 2.0 GeForce FX 5200 Ultra - 74
G5 dual 2.0 Radeon 9800 SE - 29

ie. With the 5200, going from a G5 1.6 single to a G5 2.0 dual only improves this speed to a small extent in this bench. However, going to a better video card makes a huge difference, even on a single-CPU machine.

[deboerjo]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Based on benchmarks and tests I've seen on PCs, a GeForce FX 5200 Ultra is terrible with Doom3 at 800x600, and that's with much faster CPUs (ie. > 3 GHz P4s). (I dunno if I'd want to play it at 640x480.) Furthermore, John Cormack has hinted that the performance is worse on the Mac (but we all knew that anyway).

With a graphics chip as slow as the 5200, processor speed doesn't matter much, the bottleneck is almost exlusivly the graphics card. 2GHz Pentium, 3GHz pentium, doesn't make a difference when you hobble it with a 5200. Set texture quality to the lowest possible setting (because of the 64MB VRAM) and resolution to 640x480 to reduce graphics load (yeah, I know, it's ugly) and I would imagine you should get quite playable frame rates, even factoring in weaker Macintosh optimization.

Well, Doom3 probably won't be out until not too long before the rev. B G5 iMac anyway. ie. If Doom3 is a consideration, it may just pay to wait until spring. By that time, the G5 iMac might have both a faster CPU and a faster GPU. It still won't be great at Doom3, but it will be less painful than with a GeForce FX 5200 Ultra.

Good point.

[galarneau]

You know, I'm also disappointed with the graphic card that Apple picked for this iMac. However, I have read reports on Doom 3 running acceptably on pc systems as slow as a 1.5Ghz Athlon with a GeForce4MX card.

At first it might seem odd to be so critical of a computer based on one game, but think about this: Quake 3 (from the makers of Doom 3) came out in 1999, and 5 years later, games are still being made with its engine. I expect this to also be the case with Doom 3. If the new iMac can't use this engine now, you're stuffed for many of the games that will use that engine for the next 5 years (i.e. the life of the machine).

Anyway, I did some googling around, and found the following article reporting on Doom 3 performance on older video cards.

http://tech-report.com/etc/2004q3/do...w/index.x?pg=1

I was surprised to see that at medium quality and 800x600 resolution, the GeforceFX 5200 Ultra was getting over 40fps.

Of course, they were using a beefed up Athlon 64 3200 cpu, but this was to make sure that the limit on frame rate was the video card and not the cpu.

In summary, I think the new iMac may actually be passable as a gaming machine. Lets just hope the wizards at Id software do some good work on moving the engine from DirectX to OpenGL.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by galarneau:
At first it might seem odd to be so critical of a computer based on one game, but think about this: Quake 3 (from the makers of Doom 3) came out in 1999, and 5 years later, games are still being made with its engine. I expect this to also be the case with Doom 3. If the new iMac can't use this engine now, you're stuffed for many of the games that will use that engine for the next 5 years (i.e. the life of the machine).

Good point.

In summary, I think the new iMac may actually be passable as a gaming machine. Lets just hope the wizards at Id software do some good work on moving the engine from DirectX to OpenGL.

Doom III is written in OpenGL.

[galarneau]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Doom III is written in OpenGL.

Ah, I stand corrected. Thanks Eug.

We should start an online petition to Apple for better GPU's in the next revision iMac.

Anybody know a good site to host an online petition? I found:

http://www.gopetition.com/

I'd sign it in a nanosecond. It might be like farting into the wind, but I'll sleep better at night knowing I told Apple what I really think.

[deboerjo]

Originally posted by galarneau:
You know, I'm also disappointed with the graphic card that Apple picked for this iMac. However, I have read reports on Doom 3 running acceptably on pc systems as slow as a 1.5Ghz Athlon with a GeForce4MX card.

Eh, define "acceptably". I've seen it, it's pretty miserably slow. I really don't understand why the 4MX is on their list of supported chips, it really can't handle Doom.

I was surprised to see that at medium quality and 800x600 resolution, the GeforceFX 5200 Ultra was getting over 40fps.

Of course, they were using a beefed up Athlon 64 3200 cpu, but this was to make sure that the limit on frame rate was the video card and not the cpu.

Besides the beefy CPU, notice a few other things; the 5200Ultra in that test is a 128MB card. Also, it's using the relativly low-demand trdemo2. This greatly improves it's ability to handle medium quality textures. In practice, you don't want to run anything higher than low quality textures on a 64MB card. Another thing to note, the frame rates listed are averages, and what's important is MINIMUM. Check out HardOCP's Doom3 hardware guide, it's somewhat more useful.

That said, 640x480 with low quality textures should run just fine on the new iMacs, and Doom still looks pretty spectacular even at these settings.

[iBorg]

Originally posted by Commodus:
As far as this question, Apple just won't be upgrading the video chipset on the iMac G5 in the near future. Apple's computer revisions tend to be at least 6 months apart, so you'd be looking at March at the earliest (and quite possibly later) for a rev B.

Maybe, maybe not .... I bought my "Wallstreet" Powerbook G3 in May of 1998, ordering it the day it was announced, it took 2 months to arrive, and less than one month later the "PDQ" version arrived in August, with a bit faster CPU and an improved graphics chipset!

This will probably not happen so soon in this case, but with the vast number of complaints I read here, and in other forums, about the abysmal video card Apple chose to stick us with, it just might ..... Especially if I had bought it (which I won't until they offer a BTO video upgrade!)



iBorg

[Landos Mustache]

So when is doom3 coming out for the Mac anyway?

[babble]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
So when is doom3 coming out for the Mac anyway?

No dates available yet, they still haven't got a publisher...

http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/s...ArticleID=9990

[Landos Mustache]

Originally posted by babble:
No dates available yet, they still haven't got a publisher...

http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/s...ArticleID=9990

So then what the hell is everyones panties in a bunch over. Before the game comes out it might run fine on the iMac.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
So then what the hell is everyones panties in a bunch over. Before the game comes out it might run fine on the iMac.

Because it already runs like crap on the 5200 Ultra on the PC, for which it has been already optimized. It runs pretty OK on the 9600 Pro though, and the 9600 XT is even better.

Anyways, I'm just as concerned with the fact the 5200 is the bottom of the barrel for Tiger. It almost sounds like the 5200 Ultra is to Tiger what the 16 MB Radeon was to Quartz Extreme in Jaguar. It runs fine for basic usage, but its deficiencies really start to show in even moderate (not hard core) usage.

However, for the 12" iBook that wasn't such a big deal, since it's a low end machine, for a low price. The 20" iMac is a mid-end machine with a high cost. Its value is pretty good because it does include a 20" screen, but $1900 is still a lot of money. If I'm going to spend that much money, then I might as well spend 3-5% more and get an upgraded GPU (if that were possible). Instead of $1900 for the iMac 20" with 5200 Ultra, I'd most definitely pay $2000 for the iMac 20" with 9600 XT.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
It almost sounds like the 5200 Ultra is to Tiger what the 16 MB Radeon was to Quartz Extreme in Jaguar. It runs fine for basic usage, but its deficiencies really start to show in even moderate (not hard core) usage.

How can one see a difference and deficiencies on quartz extreme on a 16 MB vs a Radeon.

I don't see a difference with 16 megs or 64. It is a processor load that seems to make the difference.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
How can one see a difference and deficiencies on quartz extreme on a 16 MB vs a Radeon.

I don't see a difference with 16 megs or 64. It is a processor load that seems to make the difference.

It's most obvious with Exposé. Exposé on the 16 MB Radeon will stutter like mad if you have lots of windows open. I can even get it to stutter on a TiBook with 64 MB using 2 screens (32 MB per screen), but it's good enough for Exposé 95% of the time on the TiBook.

OTOH, lots of apps are gonna start using Core Image and Core Video in not too long. The 5200 is going to struggle.

[iBorg]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
OTOH, lots of apps are gonna start using Core Image and Core Video in not too long. The 5200 is going to struggle.

Bingo!

And that's the point of contention that I, and many others have made - this isn't just a "gamers" issue - it's a matter of buying a $1900 computer whose only video option makes it outdated before it even ships!

And, as Eug has so eloquently stated, we're not talking about the low end iMac, even the top-of-the-line option is dead-ended, without a BTO option and without any user upgrade option.



iBorg

[Parky]

Snore.....