[Mallrat]

NOTE: Not sure if this post should be in this forum. But it's mostly related to the G4 versus G5 debate.
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I'm a writer/filmmaker/editor looking to purchase a new Apple Desktop computer to edit feature films.

My last setup of ibook G3, FCP 3, one chip Sony mini-DV deck, and external 120 firewire HD actually served me quite well.

So I want to upgrade to FCP 4, but I can't decide if I should get a G4 or G5. It seems that the older G4 towers are more upgradable in terms of HD's and adding an extra optical drive.

• Is getting a G5 a no brainer or can you get a sweet deal/setup by going with the G4?

Anyway, my intentions are to make a few short films, then make a feature. My issues come in, because I don't know what format I'll be shooting in. I'll probably shoot mini-DV (using the DVX-100 or XL-2), but I'd like to shoot footage in the future using the SDX-900, HD, or maybe even old school, 16mm film.

• If I one day choose to shoot in a higher format than mini-DV I can just rent a DVC-PRO 50 VCR or what have you and capture my footage, correct? Panasonic makes drives that connect via Firewire don't they? So I'd for sure rent the SDX-900, so I can just rent the deck for a few days to capture the footage to my HD, and then I can return it and take as long as I want to edit. Right?

• Should I upgrade from my Sony mini-DV as my VCR. I've used the Sony DSR-11 at The Edit Center (www.theeditcenter.com) and it was solid. But the camcorder served me well on a feature I edited, and I'd like not to spend 1700 on VCR, since I already have one.

• What is AJA Io for? I know what it is sort of, but not exactly sure why one would need it. I guess I don't know what it is really.

• I guess I should get a monitor to view footage. I was using my sony camcorder's LCD screen as my preview window, not the best. I saw a Sony 13 inch for around $500 bucks.

• To run FCP 4, what is the slowest processor I should consider?
• How much memory do I need? 1 GB
• I had good luck with my external firewire drive, but is an internal drive worth the money?

• I love the Apple monitors, but it seems I can get a better deal if I don't by any apple monitor. Any suggestions? Samsung looks grand.

So my budget is $4,000 (I'd like to spend less of course) but that's what I've got. I have to figure in $400 dollars to upgrade from version 3 to 4 too. The $$$ adds up quick, that's why I thought maybe a good deal could be had with a G4.

Thanks for any help.

[kisol007]

Yea, I think most of this post belongs else where...

However, I will say on the issue of G4 v G5 there really isn't a decision to make. It’s the G5 without question. I'm still using FCP 3 and have it running on a 350 G3, 800 G4 and a 1.6 G5. There really isn't a comparison.

And consider upgrading FCP 3 to the production bundle for $700... but again, different forum...

[OreoCookie]

G5, no question. It should have 1 gig RAM minimum. Internal harddrives are cheaper than external ones, so I'm not quite sure why you hesitate there.

Probably the middle model would be a good deal for you, G5 dual 2.0 GHz. You upgrade the video card to the Radeon 9600 which is much faster than the FX5200.

There is an article (unfortunately in German) which covers exactly your questions, including HD TV. It is supposed to work flawlessly with a G5 (the guy is a professional).

[Mallrat]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
G5, no question. It should have 1 gig RAM minimum. Internal harddrives are cheaper than external ones, so I'm not quite sure why you hesitate there.

Probably the middle model would be a good deal for you, G5 dual 2.0 GHz. You upgrade the video card to the Radeon 9600 which is much faster than the FX5200.

There is an article (unfortunately in German) which covers exactly your questions, including HD TV. It is supposed to work flawlessly with a G5 (the guy is a professional).

Well I'm hesitate because I'm got about $4,000 to spend on a computer, FCP 4 upgrade, hopefully a Studio 14 inch monitor to view the footage, maybe a VCR.

So the rig you're talking about takes out most of that chunk and leaves nothing else.

On eBay I've found nice dual 1.42 deals, with 1GB of RAM, and w 2 or 3 internal HD. And I got probably get that for under $2000. It just seems like a great deal, but i heard is the way to G5, so I'm listening.

going from my G3, everything will seem faster.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Mallrat:
Well I'm hesitate because I'm got about $4,000 to spend on a computer, FCP 4 upgrade, hopefully a Studio 14 inch monitor to view the footage, maybe a VCR.

So the rig you're talking about takes out most of that chunk and leaves nothing else.

On eBay I've found nice dual 1.42 deals, with 1GB of RAM, and w 2 or 3 internal HD. And I got probably get that for under $2000. It just seems like a great deal, but i heard is the way to G5, so I'm listening.

going from my G3, everything will seem faster.

The single 1.6 GHz G5 beats the Dual 1.42 GHz G4 in most encoding benchmarks. I wouldn't do it.

Internal hds are cheap, but with the budget you have, it's gonna be difficult. I would take a look at refurb Dual G5s, e. g. Dual 1.8 or Dual 2.0. If you get the RAM somewhere else, you can upgrade the memory for very little, too. Depending on what you do, I would also take a look at Final Cut Express. You have to judge yourself if you need the extra functions such as batch processing.

[sith33]

Consider what kind of editing you'll be doing. Do you think you want to be doing lots of of compositing, potentially using Motion, or at least After Effects? If that's the case, I think you have no choice but to go with the G5.

If you're mostly a "cuts and dissolves" editor, then it gets a bit more fuzzy. I cut on a Dual 450, a dual 1ghz and occasionally on my 800mhz iMac. I really don't feel much difference 90% of the time. So, if that's your editing style, I would price out some of the faster dually g4s versus getting a new G5 and see what you could get with the money you'd save. You may be better served by getting a g4 and spending the money on more storage, better monitoring or extra software.

As to your other questions....

If using your DV cam as a deck works for you for now, keep it. You can always rent decks when it blows up (and it will blow up, but my little canon camcorder served as my deck for about 6 months before finally crapping out). When you're ready, give consideration to the DSR-25. It's a nice pricepoint, with a whole lot of features that put it above the DSR-11 but without the cost of the DSR-45. The 11 gets really frustrating because you don't have good visual feedback on what's going on. For DV, don't consider any decks besides Sony, and stay far far away from the DSR-30 or DSR-1. A used 20 or 40 would be ok, but you have to be careful about how many hours are on the heads. Don't expect to get more than about 6000 hours without a head replacement. Oh, and don't even consider using your "real camera" as a deck (be it the DVX or the XL2). Especially the DVX...

When you're ready to move above mini-dv, you'll have a number of options. I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude about HDV, but it could be cool. The SDX-900 is a great camera, and you're correct about being able to rent a deck to work with it. The nice thing about DVCPRO-50 is that you don't need to worry about changing your storage setup, since it's only 6.6M/s. DVCPRO-HD is also an exciting format, and it too doesn't require the massive fibre channel raid arrays that you really need for cutting from HDCAM. It's hard to give advice about this stuff because in 6 months this whole market segment is probably going to be turned on its head. Just go to NAB in 2005. It's worth the money, you'll learn a ton.

The AJA boxes, like the Blackmagic cards and such as designed for getting video formats other than mini-dv into your computer. AJA does it over firewire, Blackmagic does it over pci, they both have ranges of products for taking in different formats. AJA has stuff for doing both digital and analog. Digital means bringing in things like serial digital (SDI) and AES/EBU audio. In the analog realm it's basically composite and component video. Don't worry about their stuff unless you're going to be using DigiBeta or some similar format. Some folks swear by bringing DV in over SDI (out from like a DSR-1600) and then cutting it uncompressed, because you get to do your color correction in 4:2:2 instead of 4:1:1, but c'mon, it's still dv...

The blackmagic cards are a bit more interesting because they do things like 4:4:4:4 12bit HD video over dual HD-SDI links, but again, when you need that kind of stuff you'll know it.

As far as external monitoring, the sony monitors are very nice, but if you really want to be accurate you should get one with a blue only switch so you can calibrate it properly. The 14" PVM14L2 will run you about $1000. The 9" PVM9L2 might be found for like $750 for $800. Don't be afraid to look at offerings from JVC and Panasonic too, as you can usually save some bucks and get basically the same setup. Just go to B&H and sort lowest to highest priced, then find the cheapest one with blue inhibit.

Keep in mind when driving an external monitor that you're going to have to be going through your deck. Make sure your little handycam can actually do passthrough from the digital in to the analog out - many cheaper cameras can't. You'll also be using the camera's D/A convertor, which is probably just this side of absolute crap. This is another advantage of going with a real deck, or buying an external firewire to analog convertor.

I'm done now. Good luck.

[Mallrat]

Originally posted by sith33:
Consider what kind of editing you'll be doing. Do you think you want to be doing lots of of compositing, potentially using Motion, or at least After Effects? If that's the case, I think you have no choice but to go with the G5.

If you're mostly a "cuts and dissolves" editor, then it gets a bit more fuzzy. I cut on a Dual 450, a dual 1ghz and occasionally on my 800mhz iMac. I really don't feel much difference 90% of the time. So, if that's your editing style, I would price out some of the faster dually g4s versus getting a new G5 and see what you could get with the money you'd save. You may be better served by getting a g4 and spending the money on more storage, better monitoring or extra software.

As to your other questions....

If using your DV cam as a deck works for you for now, keep it. You can always rent decks when it blows up (and it will blow up, but my little canon camcorder served as my deck for about 6 months before finally crapping out). When you're ready, give consideration to the DSR-25. It's a nice pricepoint, with a whole lot of features that put it above the DSR-11 but without the cost of the DSR-45. The 11 gets really frustrating because you don't have good visual feedback on what's going on. For DV, don't consider any decks besides Sony, and stay far far away from the DSR-30 or DSR-1. A used 20 or 40 would be ok, but you have to be careful about how many hours are on the heads. Don't expect to get more than about 6000 hours without a head replacement. Oh, and don't even consider using your "real camera" as a deck (be it the DVX or the XL2). Especially the DVX...

When you're ready to move above mini-dv, you'll have a number of options. I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude about HDV, but it could be cool. The SDX-900 is a great camera, and you're correct about being able to rent a deck to work with it. The nice thing about DVCPRO-50 is that you don't need to worry about changing your storage setup, since it's only 6.6M/s. DVCPRO-HD is also an exciting format, and it too doesn't require the massive fibre channel raid arrays that you really need for cutting from HDCAM. It's hard to give advice about this stuff because in 6 months this whole market segment is probably going to be turned on its head. Just go to NAB in 2005. It's worth the money, you'll learn a ton.

The AJA boxes, like the Blackmagic cards and such as designed for getting video formats other than mini-dv into your computer. AJA does it over firewire, Blackmagic does it over pci, they both have ranges of products for taking in different formats. AJA has stuff for doing both digital and analog. Digital means bringing in things like serial digital (SDI) and AES/EBU audio. In the analog realm it's basically composite and component video. Don't worry about their stuff unless you're going to be using DigiBeta or some similar format. Some folks swear by bringing DV in over SDI (out from like a DSR-1600) and then cutting it uncompressed, because you get to do your color correction in 4:2:2 instead of 4:1:1, but c'mon, it's still dv...

The blackmagic cards are a bit more interesting because they do things like 4:4:4:4 12bit HD video over dual HD-SDI links, but again, when you need that kind of stuff you'll know it.

As far as external monitoring, the sony monitors are very nice, but if you really want to be accurate you should get one with a blue only switch so you can calibrate it properly. The 14" PVM14L2 will run you about $1000. The 9" PVM9L2 might be found for like $750 for $800. Don't be afraid to look at offerings from JVC and Panasonic too, as you can usually save some bucks and get basically the same setup. Just go to B&H and sort lowest to highest priced, then find the cheapest one with blue inhibit.

Keep in mind when driving an external monitor that you're going to have to be going through your deck. Make sure your little handycam can actually do passthrough from the digital in to the analog out - many cheaper cameras can't. You'll also be using the camera's D/A convertor, which is probably just this side of absolute crap. This is another advantage of going with a real deck, or buying an external firewire to analog convertor.

I'm done now. Good luck.

Wow, that was vague. JK. Thanks for great advice and detail.

I'm for sure more of a cuts/dissolve editor. I write more dialogue heavy films, and am not into the Lord of The Rings/Star Wars type of heavy effects films. So that's why I was thinking a G4 would save me money so I can buy more bells and whistles like a good monitor and internal storage.

It just seems to be that the G4 is cheaper to upgrade, and you can find great systems on eBay (even though craiglist.org) is a little cheaper.

I'll see what I can find. Thanks for the great advice. I guess I just have to price out the system with a G4 versus a G5.