Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

omar96 · Feb 4, 2005, 07:03 PM

Gonna breathe some "new" life into my Sawtooth and I have some questions:

I saw that at http://www.4daystar.com they have a new 1.8GHz G4 part from Gigadesigns. Will this extra 100MHz be enough to make the L3-cacheless part faster than the 1.5GHz part with 2MB L3? It has a larger 512Kbyte 1:1 L2 cache, so I'm thinking that for only $50 more, I might as well just go for the extra MHz...currently I'm running at 1GHz, so I know I'll see a nice boost no matter what way I go.

Also, regarding USB 2.0 cards. Will any old USB2.0 PCI card work? Is there a specific chipset/brand I need to buy?

And regarding ATA133 cards: I have a 160GB Maxtor HDD (which is in a FW enclosure right now since the ATA66 controller in the Sawtooth can't read the whole thing), so I know I'm going ATA133...but again, will any old ATA133 card do? Or do I have to go with a specific brand? I want to put this HDD inside the machine because FW performace seems to drain CPU pretty badly.

I'm probably going to stick with the rest of the hardware - 1GB of PC100, a Radeon 8500 64MB, the 160GB I already have plus the 120GB inside the machine, and my LiteOn 8x DVD-RW enabled for burning DVD's and CD's via Patchburn...I just want to get the most out of this machine I can. I'm looking to spend ~$600 (which should net me quite a bit more performance than a Mini at the same price), and I think I can stay in that budget with those three upgrades.

Detrius · Feb 6, 2005, 12:15 PM

You have to get a Mac compatible ATA card.

Check macsales.com for info on USB cards.

BTW, you have already spent a lot of money on upgrades. How much different would it have been if you had instead bought a G5 instead of spending so much money on upgrades?

ReggieX · Feb 6, 2005, 12:24 PM

If you're already at 1GHz processor speed, you're really hitting the wall with respect to the slow 100MHz bus that the Sawtooth has. If you're determined to hold onto this machine, get the 1.5 with the big L3 cache over the 1.8.

chris v · Feb 6, 2005, 12:44 PM

I would figure upwhat you could make selling your Sawtooth as-is. You could probably fetch a grand for it on eBay, and use that towards a dual 1.8.

If you were going from 450 to 1.5, I'd say do it, but from 1 to 1.5, that speed bump is going to be pricey.

If you do go with a processor upgrade, I'd get the 1.5 with the L3 cache. From what I've read here, it'll actually be a tad faster than the 1.7s with no L3 cache.

MORT A POTTY · Feb 6, 2005, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by chris v:
From what I've read here, it'll actually be a tad faster than the 1.7s with no L3 cache.

this depends entirely on the app.

MORT A POTTY · Feb 6, 2005, 03:33 PM

double post, my bad.

jamil5454 · Feb 6, 2005, 04:41 PM

Since memory access will be slow via the 100 mhz bus, it's best to have a big CPU cache. The 1.5 ghz with 2mb L3 will almost always out perform a 1.7 ghz with no L3 cache, especially with a slow FSB.

omar96 · Feb 7, 2005, 07:44 AM

The reason I was reluctant to go with the big L3 is because L3 speed hasn't really gone anywhere, because it's so expensive as-is. From what little I've been able to read, the cache speed has been pretty much fixed in the 250-300MHz range, and to me, I was thinking that a larger 1:1 cache would be faster in the long run. Mostly what I do is semi-intensive audio apps, like doing the final rendering of my MIDI stuff in Propellerhead Reason, as well as some Photoshop work...but that's PS Elements and it's mostly photo touch-up. I do a little gaming on the system, but mostly it's limited to things that the 1GHz does very comfortably, like Starcraft, MoO3, or Diablo II, so that's not even a consideration.

yikes600 · Feb 7, 2005, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by omar96:
Also, regarding USB 2.0 cards. Will any old USB2.0 PCI card work? Is there a specific chipset/brand I need to buy?

Any old USB 2.0 PCI card using the NEC chipset will work.

omar96 · Feb 9, 2005, 08:32 AM

Thanks for the info yikes600. What about the ATA133 card? Any particular brand/chipset that will work?

FWIW, I had a Promise Ultra33 PC card that I popped in to see what happened and the system didn't detect anything useable...

chris v · Feb 9, 2005, 09:08 AM

I'll toss this out there. If you're doing Audio, you really should look at a G5. I made a 2x CPU speed jump from G4 Dual 1 GHZ to G5 Dual 2 GHZ, but I've seen about a 5X improvement in CPU performance in Logic.

yikes600 · Feb 9, 2005, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by omar96:
Thanks for the info yikes600. What about the ATA133 card? Any particular brand/chipset that will work?

You need a mac specific card. I'd recommend the Acard 6280M for $52 at Newegg. There are few other cards on the market like the SIIG SC-MP4A12 which are just rebranded Acard hardware. These cards work with the Acard drivers Apple included natively in OS X.
Alternatively, there's the Sonnet Tempo ATA/133 which costs about twice as much for no reason.

MORT A POTTY · Feb 9, 2005, 12:54 PM

Firmtek also makes ATA controllers, and in fact,t he Sonnet card is a re-branded Firmtek card.

I own the Sonnet. I was already making a huge order and I only wanted one box to be delivered (it's a PITA to set p deliveries that are convenient for me) so I went ahead and ordered it fro NewEgg along with the rest of my order.

BUT, you're free to get whatever (obviously).

ReggieX · Feb 11, 2005, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by omar96:
The reason I was reluctant to go with the big L3 is because L3 speed hasn't really gone anywhere, because it's so expensive as-is. From what little I've been able to read, the cache speed has been pretty much fixed in the 250-300MHz range, and to me, I was thinking that a larger 1:1 cache would be faster in the long run.

Doesn't matter that it's slow, there's 2 bloody megs of it!

astepanuks · Feb 12, 2005, 02:50 PM

I am following this with great interest as I have original Sawtooth 400 Mhz and thinking about an upgrade.
I have 960 MB RAM, 3 internal HD and 2nd PCI video card (ATI RAGE) to run a 2nd monitor. I am thinking to update original AGP ATI Rage Pro to Radeon 9000 ($117), Powerlogix 900 Mhz CPU upgrade ($149).
I am wondering if my power supply will be capable of running all of this? In order to reduce power consumption, shall I remove one HD and 2nd PCI video card as new Radeon will be able to drive 2 monitors?
Andy

chris v · Feb 12, 2005, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by astepanuks:
I am following this with great interest as I have original Sawtooth 400 Mhz and thinking about an upgrade.
I have 960 MB RAM, 3 internal HD and 2nd PCI video card (ATI RAGE) to run a 2nd monitor. I am thinking to update original AGP ATI Rage Pro to Radeon 9000 ($117), Powerlogix 900 Mhz CPU upgrade ($149).
I am wondering if my power supply will be capable of running all of this? In order to reduce power consumption, shall I remove one HD and 2nd PCI video card as new Radeon will be able to drive 2 monitors?
Andy

Should be able to handle it. I've got a Sawtooth with a 1.25 CPU upgrade, Radeon 7000 driving 2 displays and 2 internal drives. It's been humming along 24/7 like that for over a year.

BZ · Feb 13, 2005, 06:42 AM

Here is what I did to my original 350Mhz G4 Sawtooth;

- OWC 1.5GHz G4 w/ 2MB L3 Cache
- 2GB Ram
- 2 x 120 GB WD SE 7,200 RPM Drives
- ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Card 128 MB RAM

Runs pretty well, does most iApps but I am looking forward to a G5 this spring as this computer is now 4+ years old.

BZ

bossep · Feb 13, 2005, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by BZ:
Here is what I did to my original 350Mhz G4 Sawtooth;

- OWC 1.5GHz G4 w/ 2MB L3 Cache
- 2GB Ram
- 2 x 120 GB WD SE 7,200 RPM Drives
- ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Card 128 MB RAM

Runs pretty well, does most iApps but I am looking forward to a G5 this spring as this computer is now 4+ years old.

BZ

Hi,

Have you had any problems with the heat from your upgrade cpu? How did you solve the power supply to the graphics card? I have a G4 'Sawtooth' and I am thinking of upgrading my cpu. I have been recommended the Sonnet 1.7GHz in favor of their 1.4GHz due to the power (G4 'Sawtooth' 200W) and the heat. I have been looking for the ATI R9800 card, but I am not too technical so the power supply is again an issue.

BZ · Feb 14, 2005, 06:24 AM

- No problems from the heat of the CPU
- No problems with the power supply and the graphics card

I have had these upgrades in my Sawtooth for at about a year.

BZ

Originally posted by bossep:
Hi,

Have you had any problems with the heat from your upgrade cpu? How did you solve the power supply to the graphics card? I have a G4 'Sawtooth' and I am thinking of upgrading my cpu. I have been recommended the Sonnet 1.7GHz in favor of their 1.4GHz due to the power (G4 'Sawtooth' 200W) and the heat. I have been looking for the ATI R9800 card, but I am not too technical so the power supply is again an issue.

omar96 · 02:16 PM

chris v: while I can certainly appreciate the performance improvement, this is just a hobby of mine, not a profession. I'd LOVE to go G5, or dual G5, but it's just more money than I want to part with at this time.

yikes600: thanks again for the NEC chipset tip; I ordered a pair of them off ebay, one for my Mac and one for my aging PIII machine and both work flawlessly, and I paid less than $25 for the pair.

I picked up a Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB and I've had it in my wife's PC for a few days stressing it to make sure that it works well, and it does, so I'm going to attempt the flash this weekend. If it doesn't go well, I'll back up the BIOS and let my wife keep it. I'd like it for work with Core Image in Tiger, though, so I'm hoping for the best. (despite stating earlier I was going to keep my 8500)

I'm skipping the ATA133 card, since I already have the FW enclosure and it works pretty well. Couple that with the fact I went with a cheaper CPU (see below), and I had the money for the Radeon 9800. Anyway, I've got a 120 in the machine for apps and some scrap space, and the external 160 for all my finished data, so together that's plenty of space.

And finally, I picked up a 1.5 GigaDesigns from 4daystar.com as it seems to be the fastest with the L3 cache, and it's not THAT much slower MHz-wise than the 1.8 and it'll come sooner, so I'm sure I'll appreciate a speed bump.

Not bad for $600.

Detrius, I don't see that I ever answered your original question, and the answer is that it's actually saving me a bit because I'm getting PC parts and doing what I need to in order to use them (flashing the 9800, for example) and I already had a couple of items. Especially since I'd have to buy all new RAM for RAM upgrades, not being able to recycle what I already owned. I'm guessing I'd have had to spend 1700 or so to get a system I liked in a G5, and I took a chunk of that money and picked up a dual-USB iBook for travelling, since I do alot of that for work.

italiano · Feb 25, 2005, 03:01 PM

You'll love the 9800 once it's flashed - let me know if you need the reduced "special rom" we use...

omar96 · Feb 25, 2005, 03:37 PM

italiano - YGPM

ReggieX · Feb 27, 2005, 09:47 PM

Glad to hear it worked for you, omar96!

omar96 · Feb 28, 2005, 08:24 AM

Well, my wife still has the 9800...still waiting to hear back from italiano about that ROM...

LeeG · Mar 30, 2005, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by BZ:
Here is what I did to my original 350Mhz G4 Sawtooth;

- OWC 1.5GHz G4 w/ 2MB L3 Cache
- 2GB Ram
- 2 x 120 GB WD SE 7,200 RPM Drives
- ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Card 128 MB RAM

Runs pretty well, does most iApps but I am looking forward to a G5 this spring as this computer is now 4+ years old.

BZ

Just for reference for others searching, I did the following to my G4/500 Sawtooth, and it runs no problem:

- OWC 1.4Ghz w/ L3 Cache
- 1Gb Ram
- 2 Internal HDs
- Radeon 8500 Flashed
- Pioneer 104 "SuperDrive"

I have been running all iApps, Panther, even some Final Cut Express, and its fine - Not SUPERFAST, but hums along nicely-

Lee

Amacapart · Apr 1, 2005, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by omar96:
Well, my wife still has the 9800...still waiting to hear back from italiano about that ROM...

For anyone wishing to do a Radeon 9800, we have discovered that there is a way "around" the 64K flash block resistors. ie, it is no longer necessary to move them. Using the "8.6 no confirmation" flasher from ATIccelerator I is way to go. This is especially useful for flashing the 9700, since there is NO WAY to reduce it's ROM.

MORT A POTTY · Apr 1, 2005, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Amacapart:
For anyone wishing to do a Radeon 9800, we have discovered that there is a way "around" the 64K flash block resistors. ie, it is no longer necessary to move them. Using the "8.6 no confirmation" flasher from ATIccelerator I is way to go. This is especially useful for flashing the 9700, since there is NO WAY to reduce it's ROM.

I believe this belongs in the mod forum, not powermac forum...